daskindt

The problem is that there’s no evidence in the materials published in the last couple decades that this would have occurred and lots of evidence that it wouldn’t have occurred. Ian already provided numerous page references to indicate that in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes there is no mention of a Yelmalio temple in Boldhome and direct reference to an Elmal temple. Further, there is evidence all over the place that the Sartarties and Yelmalions do not get along or trust each other. Sun County swore an oath to Tarkalor and have not renewed that oath with any Prince of Sartar since. King of Sartar, Storm Tribe, Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, Sartar Companion, the Coming Storm, and other sources all emphasize the hostility between the cults of Elmal and Yelmalio. However, I’m just going to focus on some of the references in Wyrm’s Footnotes, which are written primarily from a perspective friendly to the Yelmalio cult. Here’s a few references from Wyrm’s Footnotes #15: Pg. 35: These are the “friendly” members of the Yelmalio cult that once swore an oath to Tarkalor. They don’t sound particularly well disposed toward their Orlanthi neighbors. They don’t sound likely to set up camp in Boldhome rather than remove themselves from Orlanthi communities to live under their own rule in Sun County. Pg. 37: Terrible strife amongst the tribes of Sartar due to the Yelmalio cult. This doesn’t sound like the Sartarites welcomed the Yelmalio cult into their society and reinforces the notion that Tarkalor resolved much of the tension by granting Vaantar to the Yelmalio cult (and taking it away from the Elmali) in order to get them out of Sartar. Pg. 38: The Yelmalion pikemen of Vaantar remained neutral in the Boldhome Campaign. One would think if they had a temple IN Boldhome, they would have been forced to take a side one way or the other, but curiously no mention of any organized Yelmalio cult presence in Boldhome. Pg. 41: Here’s the rivalry between Yelmalio and Elmal in Tarsh. The Golden Spearman was a son of Emperor Yelm and an enemy of Orlanth. Tarkalor ends the strife by giving the disgruntled Elmali their own lands to make their own rules. No mention of constructing a temple in Boldhome to honor the Yelmalio cult. Instead, they resolved the strife by getting the new cult out of contact with the rest of the tribes of Sartar. Again, the revelation is that Yelmalio is neither Yelm nor Elmal. Even in Tarsh though, Elmal was originally worshipped and the Elmali at Ironspike kept faith in Elmal. Pg. 75: This specifically calls out one temple-town in Dragon Pass—clearly Vaantar. One in Prax. Two in Lunar Tarsh. No mention of a temple in Boldhome amongst the 15 extant during the Hero Wars. This is quite a different view than the one being presented in RuneQuest: Glorantha that Yelmalio is influential everywhere in Dragon Pass and Elmal is merely a mask of Yelmalio with a carbon copy cult. These are just references in the very pro-Yelmalio Wyrm’s Footnotes #15. But they demonstrate the significant hostility between the cult of Yelmalio and traditional Orlanthi culture, especially the Elmal cult. Again, Ian provided great references from the various HeroQuest sources on Elmal and Yelmalio with the specifics about the lack of a Boldhome Yelmalio temple. Clearly, we can’t change what Jeff is writing for the upcoming RuneQuest: Glorantha materials, but they are obviously deviating from the materials that have been published in the last couple decades. But there are increasingly two different Gloranthas emerging on this point: 1) HeroQuest Glorantha where both Elmal and Yelmalio exist and there is a rich Elmal mythology and culture which includes a hostile schism between the cults, and 2) RuneQuest Glorantha where only Yelmalio exists in a meaningful way and Elmal is a quaint name of a sub-cult of Yelmalio that is functionally identical whose contrary myths are being forgotton or ignored.

I was disappointed and worried before, but it has only gotten worse. The worst part though has been to see people being corrected, having their document based arguments dismissed, and told they’re wrong based upon sources that haven’t yet been published, when those “new” sources clearly contradict the existing material. There’s been some serious gaslighting occurring in this and other social media forums on this topic. This started for me with me thinking I didn’t remember the stories and myths of Elmal very well, but as I’ve reviewed previous sources and read new sources it’s clear that I remembered much better than I thought. There is a rich and twenty-plus year history of Elmal that is very clearly being discarded and retconned to reassert Yelmalio as they only sun cult of relevance in Dragon Pass (and perhaps much more of Glorantha for all we know at this point). I guess I shouldn’t be too disappointed since Elmal was a retcon in the first place (and many folks didn’t appreciate him being introduced/invented), but it seemed like Greg and Jeff (along with countless other contributors) had fully committed to Elmal’s presence as a part of Glorantha. The new direction on Elmal and Yelmalio for RuneQuest: Glorantha seems like an extremely clumsy retcon to remove Elmal and smooth over the Yelmalio cult. I’m incredibly impressed with the quality of Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes and related projects. The new art and visuals for RuneQuest are brilliant. But my Glorantha certainly won’t be following the Yelmalio retcon in the new edition and it makes me less interested and less excited about collecting the new books being published.

Yeah. I guess that’s why I’ve been so disappointed with how the new RQG materials have treated Elmal. There’s so much excellent material that has come out in the past couple of decades on Elmal that it’s a shame to see it handled so poorly in the new material. Storm Tribe blew my mind when it was released as a coherent book of complex cults for a fictional setting and Elmal was one of the absolute stars. There’s clearly an evolution from there to Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, but that evolution is excellent and complex. Sartar: KoH is so, so good. I just don’t understand why RQG is casting that aside. I just can’t get behind the viewpoint of “And it came to pass that Monrogh was right and everyone lived happily ever after in Yelmalio’s cold light.”

I get that GoG is a specific format with a limited scope. I just think it is currently going way, way, way overboard in reducing the differences between Elmal and Yelmalio. The worst part is probably completely dropping Elmal from the list of Orlanthi deities while including Yelmalio. I’m not expecting a full cult write up (although it would be nice), but the idea that the Elmal cult write up would basically resemble the Yelmalio cult seems absurd based upon the previously published materials. However weak the organized Elmal cult may currently be amongst the Orlanthi in Sartar and Dragon Pass, there’s absolutely no indication that they’ve ceased to revere Elmal as the Sun amongst their culture. His holy days are still part of the Orlanthi sacred calendar. He’s still prominently featured in many of their most important myths. Yelmalio is still viewed as a foreign god and his worshippers have betrayed Elmal. Elmal still has a huge cultural presence within the Sartar materials and within Heortling mythology. The GoG entry makes it sound like Sartar is the only place where Elmal is given any attention of any kind, rather than being the center of the conflict between the two cults.

The GenCon Preview Edition of RuneQuest: Gods of Glorantha doesn’t help with the exact dates or the details of Monrogh’s vision and actions, but it does shove the Elmal/Yelmalio distinction off to the side in favor of Yelmalio’s cult. This account greatly simplifies the story and completely subsumes Elmal’s history and mythology as well as the complexities of Tarkalor’s machinations and political games with the Yelmalio cult. Elmal is given two more paragraphs at the very end of Yelmalio’s entry under MISCELLANEOUS NOTES. Not sure what happened to Elmal’s Fire rune or the many differences in the manner in which he is worshipped. Nor is it clear to me still why Yelmalio would completely displace Elmal outside Sartar. At the very least, Elmal is a Heortling sun god and I would expect his cult would continue to show up among Heortling Orlanthi, wherever they are. We have many documents that go to great lengths to describe the mythology and cultural relevance of Elmal to the Orlanthi, beyond direct worship through his cult, so I’m not sure how Yelmalio’s cult (and Yelm’s for that matter) have subsumed Elmal. What’s even more troubling is that Elmal is not even given a mention as part of the Orlanthi pantheon, the GODS OF STORM, even though similar lists in the Book of Heortling Mythology, King of Sartar, the Guide to Glorantha, the Glorantha Sourcebook, and more all make mention of Elmal’s importance as the Orlanthi Sun god. Somehow, Yelmalio is included in the list though: Compare that with: King of Sartar The Book of Heortling Mythology Also in the ENEMY GODS OF ORLANTH list in BoHM: I really hope that significant revisions to the Gods of Glorantha keep a place for Elmal, at the very least list Elmal as the Orlanthi God of the Sun, and the entire Elmal vs Yelmalio struggle in RQG. My Glorantha will certainly vary to better include the complexities of this thread and the many existing sources should the new edition continue to subsume Elmal out of existence.

I was referring specifically to the feud between the Elmali and the Jarosar. From the latest edition of King of Sartar: This betrayal by the Elmali clans, which were most likely those Elmali that had fallen in with Monrogh and his New Elmal, would make them enemies of the Prince of Sartar. But the seeds of this betrayal were planted during the reign of Jarolar, Jarosar’s father, from 1550 to 1565, who fought the Lunar Empire when they invaded Tarsh. This seems to be the period that the Lunars were most actively seeking to promote the sun worshipping Elmali clans of Tarsh and then Sartar by driving a wedge between their apparent desire to worship Yelm vs Orlanth. Monrogh must have had his vision sometime during this period and been working to convert the traditional Elmali over to the cult of Yelmalio. Tarkalor made peace with the Elmali during his rule, sometime between 1569 and 1579 when he officially award Vanntar to Monrogh and the Yelmalio cult. Again from King of Sartar: If he forged peace with the Sun worshippers, that implies they were “enemies” of Sartar, at least for a time. Jalk’s Book, also in King of Sartar, has another version of the account, again with the Elmali/Yelmalians/Sun Worshippers as enemies of the Prince of Sartar (Jarosar?): The Eyetooth Clan brought the statue because they were “rebelling against their king” and willing to “pay eternal worship and tribute to a foreign deity.” Tarkalor “sought allies among the enemies of his father,” but that would place the Elmali rebellion earlier than Jarosar and all the way back to Saronil who died in 1550. Again, the years and exacts details of the conflict are all a bit slippery. The accounts of Monrogh’s vision all seem to differ at least slightly, but often in significant ways. Once more though, Monrogh’s vision is described as bringing back a god other than Elmal: This doesn’t sound like him revealing that Elmal is actually a mask for Yelmalio, but instead he’s discovering a new god.

Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes sets the time of Monrogh’s vision pre-1550 as that is around when Tarkalor challenges Monrogh Lantern’s new Yelmalio cultists to defeat the Kitori. The Glorantha Sourcebook sets the date later, in 1569, after Tarkalor became Prince: I suppose he could have issued the challenge to defeat the Kitori to the Monrogh’s Yelmalio cult before he became Prince. Interestingly, this passage in the GS uses the phrase “a god neither Yelm nor Elmal” to describe Yelmalio, which is often used in many of the sources. Only a couple places use the idea that Elmal was just a mask or another name for Yelmalio. It certainly doesn’t seem to be an agreed upon point that Elmal is just another name for Yelmalio.

I can’t really tell. The various accounts of the rebellion and Monrogh’s quest all vary so much in the details that it’s difficult to make sense of it. Some accounts make it sound like Monrogh’s vision came early, close to the 1550 date, and that the revelation itself was the primary fuel for the rebellion. Other accounts make it sound like the rebellion was going pre-Monrogh and his vision gave a way out of the conflict. One of the earlier accounts suggests that Monrogh was seeking a resolution to the conflict and Elmal directed him to Yelmalio. Basically told him that he wasn’t worshipping Elmal at all and needed to go his own way. Here’s what I found from Storm Tribe: This is clearly not the version of the story being used for the RuneQuest Glorantha materials, but I think it makes the most sense from the Heortling Orlanthi perspective.

It seems like the Heortling myths of Elmal already account for the Son of the Sun elements of Yelmalio. The Orlanthi already know that Elmal used to be part of the Sky Tribe. He was healed of his overbearing pride and became a much nicer guy from the perspective of the Orlanthi. That’s all part of the myths already. So I don’t get why the Heortling Orlanthi would find Monrogh’s revelation that Elmal is but a mask of Yelmalio at all interesting, useful, or relevant. Sure. Maybe Elmal and Yelmalio are the same god. But the Orlanthi got the better version already. Elmal is the wiser and nobler version of Yelmalio after he grows up. So why would the Orlanthi find the new Yelmalio cult at all appealing? The Yelmalio cult that rejects Orlanth? I get why the Elmali that were already rebelling against Orlanth in Sartar would find Yelmalio compelling. They got to refigure their myths and embrace the haughty and arrogant Yelmalio and reject the myths about the Loyal Thane. They got to stick it to Orlanth, make their own decisions, rule their own clans, and borrow some magic from Yelm. This was useful to Tarkalor. He was able to turn these previous enemies of Sartar into a military force to defeat the Kitori, but then he shipped them out of Sartar and gave them Sun County. It worked because they were leaving proper Orlanthi society where they were previously expected to show respect and deference to Orlanth. They had embraced a foreign god and mythology and although they were useful militarily, they were a toxic poison culturally. The idea that the remaining Elmali believe that Monrogh’s revelation is a product of the Teller of Lies seems way more plausible. Yelmalio’s cult has not been a friend to the Orlanthi. It was used to drive a wedge in the Orlanthi tribes by the Lunars and weakened the Orlanthi kingdoms. Now that the poison has been largely removed and focused in Sun County and Tarsh, the Heortling Orlanthi have every reason to continue to honor the myths of Elmal that have served them since before the Dawn.

And one of the greatest Yelmalian heroes of the 1618 era is Harvar Ironfist, a Lunar ally, and enemy of the rebelling Sartarites. More reasons why I really can’t understand the move to completely sideline the cult of Elmal and erase the substantial and meaningful differences between the cults of Yelmalio and the Heortlings worship of Elmal. We’re told the Elmali believe that Yelmalio’s cult is a product of the Teller of Lies. We’re told the cult of Elmal still has access to the Fire rune. However diminished the cult of Elmal is in Sartar, his worship is in no way reducible to a “mask of Yelmalio”. I really, really hope the draft of Gods of Glorantha changes substantially in its treatment of Elmal. It currently completely undermines the many sources currently in print (Book of Heortling Myth, King of Sartar, Sartar: KoH, GtG, and even the Glorantha Sourcebook) when it comes to Elmal vs Yelmalio.

In the distant past (20-30 years ago), we didn’t use miniatures with RuneQuest. I would love to have miniatures for Glorantha though, especially miniatures that reflect the new art styles of RQG. I’ve been looking at a lot of the minis variously available, but not finding a good pool of consistent starter minis for a group of Sartarites and the Lunars occupying their territory. I’m sure lots of proxying could handle it, but I would love to see a diverse group of Orlanthi and Lunars (maybe Praxians) in 28mm scale. I can’t wait for Gods War to arrive and I suspect I’ll use the minis for display pieces and some of the more fanciful adventures, but they won’t help a lot with the usual adventures the group is likely to encounter using the Red Cow saga.

The question I have again here though is why do we still see the Orlanthi calling Elmal the sun in various sources while they label Lightfore Yelmalio? It seems like while the sun was extinguished, Elmal was the light in the sky that is now associated with Lightfore, but I get the impression that the sun at the Dawning became Elmal again for the Heortlings. Is this inaccurate?

This is certainly the version that makes the most sense to me based upon the previously published material I’ve read. The importance of the Elmal cult in Heortling culture and mythology makes me think that the Yelmalio cult shouldn’t have had much success in displacing it as you leave those Elmali that were directly under Monrogh’s influence. However, the current draft of Gods of Glorantha does not seem to support this interpretation. It relegates the worship of Elmal to just a handful of communities in Sartar, which doesn’t make much sense to me based upon all the previously published materials. Is there published material on Heortland and any other Orlanthi communities comprised of Heortlings, other than Sartar, where we get a better sense of how the various Orlanthi cults have been surviving? Circumstances that explain why the Heortlings in places other than Sartar would have abandoned the traditional Elmal cult?

This is one of the reasons I’m confused. We’re explicitly told that the Heortling Orlanthi associate Elmal with the sun. We’re also told that they specifically call Lightfore Yelmalio. As to who still worships Elmal, as his mythology is rooted firmly in the Heortling traditions, wouldn’t his cult still exist in Heortland? As Monrough was a Sartarite Elmali, I would expect Sartar was most dramatically affected by his Yelmalio revelations. I would expect that outside of Sartar, it has been a much slower process for Elmali to convert to the new Yelmalio cult. What am I missing?

Elmal is the sun. Yelmalio is what the Orlanthi call Lightfore. According to all the sources I can find. I’m still unclear why the Heortlings would accept the view that Yelmalio is the true god behind the Elmal “mask.” Elmal’s myths already encompass a former member of the Sky Tribe learning better and become a member of the Storm Tribe. Other than Elmali that embrace the Yelmalio myths because they’re too proud to remain loyal to Orlanth, I don’t see what any Heortling would get out of Yelmalio that Elmal doesn’t provide in a superior mythological context.

You have no idea how much I want to see a King of Dragon Pass for Trolls. Really can’t wait to see more details on Trolls and Lunars for the new edition. The Sartar materials for HeroQuest are so strong. I really can’t wait to see the current team return to Trolls and finally give the Lunars the sourcebooks they deserve.

I’m wondering what needs to be done to adapt the clan generator in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes for RuneQuest. We’ll probably use the Red Cow campaign, but it would be nice to have the generic clan generator tuned to RuneQuest.

From someone’s perspective. Certainly.

I really need to play more 6 Ages. I’m very curious to see how it expands the Elmal mythology. That said, I think I hate the perspective of the cult of Yelmalio being the accurate take on Elmal-Yelmalio. I can accept that those that have embraced Yelmalio think that Elmal is just a mask for Yelmalio. But I also think that those that have remained devoted to Elmal absolutely believe that the Yelmalio cult represents a hostile foreign god that has betrayed and corrupted Orlanthi beliefs and customs.

Yeah. The MOV discussion didn't make any sense to us in the QS and I just sort of ignored it and added some strike ranks if characters were closing.

The refinements sound solid. The general changes to Rune Magic are a huge improvement over RQ2/3 and address some of my biggest complaints with RuneQuest as a rule system to experience Glorantha. I think the revised proposal will strike a nice balance in helping to not overload players with options, but still giving great flexibility when it comes to access to Rune Magic.