Grievous

"Broo? That's pretty problematic. We call them reproductively-challenged around here."

For what it's worth on my part (to address the sigh), I was legitimately interested in your response here and not just making a snide question. I see your point, but admit to having very different opinions/approaches around this topic.

So, you are saying that the Handmaid's Tale is making people hate women?

Well, I disagree pretty vehemently. Then again, I guess I am a dirty Euro libertine. It could reasonably stand to be even more bold in its presentation, but I can see why not too.

I definitely lol'led when I read that though - not because it's cool or right, but because it's just such a terrible bro moment.

Yeah, well, it's fair to says it's pretty borked as it stands and could use a good scanning.

The issue goes a bit deeper than that - or rather is a bit more confusing. The easiest fix is to have the names Korlmy and Kangharl switch and it seems all is fixed (if indeed Kangharl is meant to be the one who had two wives). Of course, if we take S:KoH and earlier writings as having any canonical weight then Kangharl should be Kagradus' (brother of Kallai) son and that would point to a bunch of other errata needed as well.

And reading through the new GM's pack materials, I made note of this!

Yeah, I got Clearwine and Greenstone mixed up earlier - sorry! But yeah, I think Greenstone would qualify as independent. Nothing what we know about the Malani really suggests any strong links like that (and please correct me if I'm missing something). The Malani are a crazy, warlike and Humakti-embracing bunch as far as I know.

Yeah, it certainly doesn't feel like a stretch to say that the "independent" Greenstone temple is still pretty much joined at the hip with the Colymar tribe and the Ernaldori clan - even if it has some independent weight to throw around. Not sure about how this idea impacts Old Wind, though. The city temples would then quite logically fall under the patronage of the princes.

That's my impression from Thunder Rebels/Storm Tribe, but it seems Jeff's comments above point to a switch in focus. Also, I always thought part of the Alakoring rites that were introduced post-EWF was that the priests shouldn't lead the clans, but maybe I got that wrong.

I'd wager it's when he has enough wealth to have an ox-team, so he can work the land by himself.

Yeah, haha, those excerpts from GoG have me back at "somewhat confused" - which is mildly disappointing. Oh well. This has been a great thread regardless.

Thanks @M Helsdon and others! I think I got my head wrapped around the relevant bits of this.

If the Sun Dome Temples in Saird were still active, it would be pretty strange that the knowledge about Yelmalion was lost, so that points to the fact they've been shut pre-Monrogh. However, that in itself feels a bit off. All those Yelmalions just started worshipping Elmal at some point? GS also seems to suggest the Sun Dome Temples are a Second Age thing, but earlier we had some comments pointing to Nysalor's era. So, as at least one mostly non-canonical source (which I don't have at hand) out in the Internet suggested, maybe there have been several Yelmalion/Sun Dome Temple resurgences, with Monrogh being the last. But that again begs the question that what happened to all the Yelmalions and where did they go. So, ugh, I'm still having some issues piecing all this together.

BTW, do we know why the Elmali were rebelling vs. Orlanth followers in Sartar (pre-Monrogh/Yelmalio) in the first place? In a cultic sense this sounds like a strange situation, perhaps suggesting a primary political dimension. Were the rebels mostly certain clans/tribes led by the Elmali (frex. the Runegate clans or the Dinacoli) that were rebelling? If so, that could easily make it a have a more political/clan/tribal dimension, where it was about their ambitions first (as opposed by more traditionally Orlanthi led clans/tribes). Their Elmali affiliation tags along and maybe even eventually becomes the main issue. This allows them to find widescale support from among the Elmali in general, not restricted to the clans/tribes that were initially rebellious. This of course makes the situation that much worse as troubles spread. What could have been the driving force of the rebellion? Do we have any canon knowledge or old ideas/speculation concerning this or has the attention been solely on what followed? In one sense, it does sound like some Gbaji/Chaos stuff happening in Sartar...

Also, some variant events (more current) that are specific to the Red Cow and/or Cinsina: I'm myself planning on adding some Culbrea intrigue/politics into the early years in my campaign, so some Culbrea related events seem of utility, so I'm including those. Background for the feud with the Emerald Sword also feels like a very suitable source. 1603-16113: The Cinsina are ruled by by the pro-Lunar King Garralor, who sought to control the Jonstown Confederation at the expense of the Culbrea. That could be the source of something. He also re-instituted the Council of Grey Sages. 1607: The Wolf Hunt 1611-1612: Findar Longsword of the Two-Pine/Culbrea renews the Seven Tributes and exacts a heavy price from the Red Cow. Many in the clan were angry at that, and Farandar Orendalsson challenged Valenstor Moor-Leaper for the chieftaincy in 1612, but lost. 1613: After Starbrow's Revolt, Valenstor Moor-Leaper of the Red Cow is removed as chief to avoid punishment from the Empire. Broddi becomes the new chieftain. Maybe one of your parents could be among his supporters, perhaps exiled. 1614: Broddi stopped paying the Red Cow Tribute, and encouraged the Blueberry, Goodhaven and Greenhaft clans not to pay tribute either. Not sure if this translates to specific events, but seems quite notable regardless, especially as regards to the Cinsina relations to the Culbrea. 1615: Tormakt's Farm Massacre, which starts a feud with the Emerald Sword. Chief Broddi negotiates compensation, but Kangharl Black-Brow refuses the blood money for his dead wife, wanting only revenge. Broddi negotiated peace with the Emerald Sword, but the feuding continues a few years later. This is great background for the campaign and could easily slot into a character's history. 1617: Kangharl Black-Brow led a cattle raid against the Emerald Sword. Broddi can't settle the matter. The Emerald Sword champion, Rostakus Twice-Outlawed, tried to settle the feud in a duel at Dangerford; he killed the Red Cow champion Jordarn the Clash. Far from ending the feud this killing further enraged the Red Cow clan. This is very recent history for a Red Cow/Coming Storm/Eleven Lights campaign, of course. Unfortunately I just have these rough notes for stuff to base events on, but I figured they might be useful regardless.

I did some similar sketching for events, and have pretty much the same list. A few other events to possibly note though: Around ~1573 - Orldaging Wars (I like these for a good representation of internal warfare inside the Sartarite kingdom) 1579 - Tarkalor recognized that the Yelmalio cult was legal possessor of the lands of the Amber Fields and Forthanland 1582 - The Lunar Tarshites try to destroy the Tarsh Exiles. Sartarites and Grazers are involved on the defense. Both King Tarkalor and his Queen were killed.

Hmm, this is interesting and seems to make sense. I wonder about Yelm, though. He seems to have become Illuminated in the Underworld, when he realizes that he is one-among-the-many. That part doesn't really jive with Nysalor. One wonders if his Death severed the Illumination away from him, to become (the then lost) Nysalor. He doesn't really appear all that Illuminated before, though (one could attribute that to Dayzatar, his more transcendent brother). The God Project then sought to bring this lost fragment back, to bring rejuvenation to the Sky pantheon. But if the Illumination was not severed (or - that is to say - if he wasn't Illuminated to begin with), then from where did they find Nysalor? Is he a sort of Yelm-who-could-have-been, kind of like She Who Waits? And - to digress horrendously - what did the Pseudocosmic Egg have to do with it? Don't have my GRoY on hand to look into that for references to any of this, alas.

There's a few topics in Glorantha which have some frustrating details, but the Yelmalio-Elmal thing is thoroughly confusing on a meta-play level. I have no idea how to properly use Yelmalio (or to a lesser extent post-Monrogh Elmal) in my campaigns.

I've seen some folks contemplate these bigger versions of the board game, so that you could play out campaigns any where from Esrolia to Peloria. I wouldn't mind having a board game component like that to go with my Glorantha plans - heck, I'd integrate it into play for these big events. It would be great to have the board game form the meta-structure or background for a roleplayed campaign down in the weeds. I also remember some rumors about a rework of WBRM/Dragon Pass being in the works. I do wonder what we have in the pipe for this!

I think the Lunars actually have some trouble, if not Initiating, but at least taking people further into their religion (Sevening/Illumination). This sort of restricts the numbers of their highest level adepts. In the sense that the Lunars are trying to conquer mythic territory (the Middle Air, as currently occupied by Orlanth) it also somehow makes sense that they would have some difficulty getting people deeply entangled into their mythic framework. Otherwise I don't think they'd mind having the numbers if they could pull it off (while the Dara Happans/Pelorians in general might certainly want to keep the masses un-Initiated, because things work just fine without that added complication). Nysalor might also represent an earlier tradition from thereabouts that wouldn't have minded a numerically large contingent of followers, but for the troubles of getting there (and no doubt suffered because of complications stemming from incomplete understanding of his way).

On a serious note, I've actually wondered about the ramifications of this. It certainly seems to make the Orlanthi the (objectively) most powerful culture (at least pound for pound). Not all of that Initiate-derived power turns into pure military power, however, since a lot of goes into magically powering more mundane stuff. However, even that ends up making the culture and economy more robust than their competition in general. Frankly, I haven't quite wrapped my brain around this. In the clash of cultures, does this mean that the Orlanthi are more right than others? To stay competitive, why aren't the other cultures slowly going to a similar model? Hmmmm.

I think it's clear they are one of the three clans to have switched over to the Cinsina. The geographical note is true (and they are neighbours to the Frithan, a War Clan of Cinsina!), and while geography is destiny in some sense, it doesn't have to always be so straightforward. They are after all holding a very key piece of terrain - the road - within their tula, so they look desirable to many tribal rings, no doubt. In fact, I read it so that because of the problematic terrain, they were an obvious clan to have switch over to the Cinsina (whether that switch was decided by the Lunars, Cinsina or the Goodhavens - or all three), because the Culbrea could not easily contest it. Also, the Lunars wouldn't want a potentially rebellious (considered as such due to being Culbrea) clan controlling that key road and they could trust the Cinsina more to keep them in line. Interestingly, I note that Findar Longsword is probably operating somewhere around here, harrying that very road... I think it's also possible due to all these factors that they may have an earlier history regarding this. They may have been Cinsina earlier (or maybe even Malani). Edit/Addition: So, yeah, in Coming Storm it is noted as follows: "The Goodhaven refused to follow their king, Hofstaring Treeleaper, to war during Starbrow’s Rebellion and were cursed by that powerful hero. Fazzur Wideread placed them under the protection of the Cinsina tribe." So quite clearly a Lunar move to cover their supply route. Thinking about Goodhaven history some more, we have some other interesting notes/options: The map on p. 56 notes that the Arsgol clan of the Malani tribe used to be very near here (to the north) - of course, they got turned into the townspeople of Jonstown. But Malani interest in the area is not entirely unfounded. Also, the Goodhaven did not occupy this turf when the Telmori came and in fact appeared on this spot during the Telmori troubles, at the same time as the Cinsina tribe formed (with the Arsgol as their northern neighbours). This suggests they may be a) Sanchali who did not want to follow Cinsina (would explain their odd - consider the terrain - link to the Culbrea), b) they were people that had to move sometime during the Telmori fighting or c) one could also read this differently and say that they did in fact exist there previously, but were not affiliated with any tribe (their appearance on the map denoting their joining the Culbrea). They may have joined the Culbrea to avoid being swallowed by either the Malani or the newly appeared Cinsina (of course there were no royal roads yet to warrant that specific kind of ambition, but regular ambition will usually do). At least it would be possible (due to the geography) that they may have had to fend off assaults/politicking from either or both the Cinsina and the Malani at some point after all the trouble with the Telmori and the building of the road, but this would imply a level of in-fighting that might be considered rare (though probably not unheard of) during the Kingdom of Sartar.

Well, all right, but as I pointed out we have a contradiction in there. The Lorthing clan is part of the Cinsina in the Sartar Companion and not listed as such in the Coming Storm. Not a huge issues, obviously, just saying it's there!