Grievous

On the themes of Deadwood (Source: http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/deadwood/22970/celebrating-deadwood). Also, from wikipedia: Though Rome doesn't really strike me as a wholly lawless city or state, I think there's some ideas to be inspired by for Glorantha in those. On a side note, I wonder about that Barbarian Town sourcebook that's been mentioned..

YBoT#2 specifically for Gorde and a lot of Culbrea stuff (which certainly bears some resemblance to the Culbrea of today). However, the old non-canonical sources are not really the point - I'm trying to figure out what's canonical now.

We know the Culbrea got dissected by the Lunars after Starbrow's Rebellion and a number of its clans were given to the Cinsina and the Aranwyth. However, our sources differ on who went where exactly. That's what I want to pin down here. I see older sources mention that the Gorde, Greenhaft and Blueberry were lost to the Cinsina and the Kortal clan was lost to the Aranwyth. In the Coming Storm, which should canonically take precedence, it is the Goldberry, Greenhaft and Blueberry clans which become Cinsina and the Aranwyth clan remains unnamed. Also, the Gorde do not exist and the closest equivalent is the Lorthing clan, which is still firmly Culbrea. Sartar Companion - it's canonicity uncertain, I guess - names the Lorthing clan as now part of the Cinsina in contradiction with other sources. The Coming Storm political map on p. 89 is interesting and somewhat unhelpful with its odd borders. Elsewhere there is this mention regarding the Owlflight Crest though: "This range of hills was the border between the Culbrea and the Aranwyth tribes but since Starbrow’s Rebellion, the hills have firmly been under the Aranwyth’s control." This gives the options that either the Owl clan that controlled the Crest lost this patch of turf (and maybe no clan was actually lost), or they themselves joined the Aranwyth in which case the Owl could be the Kortal (who are now absent from mention) who were stated to have gone to Aranwyth in older sources. It seems as likely that the clan lost to the Aranwyth could be the one to the west of Toena, too (Oramani? It is slightly unclear where they should be placed based on the map). So, it's all a bit unnecessarily confusing, Do we have a canonical consensus on what actually happened? On another note, I would kill for a map of the tribes with all the clans named and positioned (at least for the major and important years of our timelines, eg. at least 1620 and 1628). I know there's probably this idea that keeping them unnamed will allow for player/GM creativity, but I tend to think that it is easier to be creative and break something when you know what you are breaking and where you are diverging. It doesn't stop creativity, it just allows for you to better control the unfortunate ripple effects that may follow.

Hmm, didn't the Alakoring changes actually separate the Priest role from the Chief/King role, so as to make this a rarer incidence rather than the norm? I think - based on what we've seen (more recently in the Red Cow campaign) - the bloodlines tend to be larger than what you imply - ie. second cousins are par for the course (and even third, maybe fourth cousins). Realistically, I do agree that bloodlines should probably fracture a bit quicker, so that clans would actually have more bloodlines in general, but this doesn't seem to be reflected in the fiction, so it seems this isn't actually a thing and that bloodlines tend to stick together quite far down the line. Also I don't really see this idea of changing bloodlines reflected in fiction either - and one assumes it would involve marriage at least. Anyway, aside from these few things I felt I needed to comment on, I like your thinking/ideas here, so thanks!

May I refer to you to the Holy Grail.

I'd need an example to get behind that impression. Fairly sure that's not intended nor actually the fact.

Too bad I missed it (as a fellow Finn - but didn't attend Ropecon this year)!

That's an interesting viewpoint, which makes a bunch of sense!

Hmm, do we know the process how one becomes a Reverend Grandmother and why the process failed to produce one after 1610?

I really like that rule and it jives nicely with my real life experience. I've fought plenty with two weapons (sword and dagger, mostly). Using two weapons is something that gives you a big benefit primarily via an increase in defense (and by increasing your offensive options after having made the parry, ie. as you make the parry you have a free hand with an unengaged weapon available to do it's thing right then while the opponent - who is in range because of having made the attack - has nothing). It doesn't really play out like a double your attacks kind of thing in practice. Yes, a shield (or buckler, which is again something I have plenty of experience in) will usually be even better than another weapon for this, but requires a distinct skill set (then again so does two-weapon fighting vs. single weapon). For game purposes, I'd be inclined to give two weapons a distinct bonus of some sort over using a shield though (as long as the shield is clearly superior in a defensive sense) and the above rule seems about perfect.

I think down to Quackford and then up to Runegate through the Lismelder lands. Going through the Wilds sounds difficult, esp. for any larger entourage (and maybe entirely impossible if they bring any carts or such). That seems a possible feature of the Colymar lands - that they are quite split by the Wilds into separated northern and southern parts. It would be interesting to hear how you have handled this from any of you who have run Colymar campaigns (?). Frankly going to Jonstown from Clearwine looks pretty difficult as well, unless you go through Runegate or there is a route over the Thunder Hills into Arfritha Vale (which is pretty much how the Malani originally arrived). The Colymar being rather separated from Jonstown isn't really a problem though as they're not part of the confederation and it's not a market primarily intended for them. Then again the Thunder Hills aren't really all that high (seems to be mostly 500 feet above their surroundings) so they are probably traversable, even though there is no real road or path for carts and the like. The Starfire Ridges look a bit more daunting.

We don't know what you're talking about. We could guess and perhaps be wrong, so maybe indeed some context might be helpful. Do you want more rules or more (or bigger) sheets?

Well, hmmm, theoretically his son who wanted to support the Hendrikings (who maybe initially got him on that side of the battle?) could still serve Samastina faithfully, if he abandoned his father and brother. Other than the little bit of information on the Battle of Pennel, I don't think we know much canonically (?).

I don't really roll that way myself, but I still absolutely love Quackatoa's stuff, so I don't think serious Ducks are an oxymoron!

Yeah, I think that is a good sounding board. Before a Lunar is Sevened, they serve the Red Goddess, but are not really of the Red Goddess. Once their Seventh Soul awakens, they recognize that "We are all Us", and could in a sense said to be sharing in the essence of their goddess. They would also recognize that all others are also part of the same unity, they just don't realize it yet. However, I also think a true Illuminate can lose and retain their individuality at the same time. In terms of the seven souls, you could say that the other layers aren't evaporated when you awaken your Seventh Soul. In terms of spiritual experience, this sense of being and non-being corresponds to concepts of transcending dualism (which in Lunar terms I would explain via an understanding of the cyclical nature of the universe: day is the opposite of night, but day turns into night and vice versa, so we might just as well call night day-in-the-making). So, I think an Illuminated Lunar priestess can really be said to be both at the same time: a part of the Red Goddess and her servant. As for what Greg said about reaching the dead souls of Illuminates, it is more difficult to say. It can certainly be argued that their experience with the unity of all makes them turn away from the many, and their individuality, and thus the need to maintain a contactable dead soul (which is an identity of sorts). On the other hand and to continue with the Lunar example I could also see the dead soul of a Lunar Illuminate to be contactable at least via the Red Goddess. I think I'd like to hear more about what Greg was musing about here before really jumping to more far reaching conclusions.

There is a reason there tends to be a feeling out period in any serious fight (perhaps excluding many of those that explode out of rampant emotion). If you have two (or more) people coming at you, that feeling out is going to be pretty difficult to accomplish (as is, realistically, any one-against-many fight unless you happen to hold some other type of clear advantage, such as a longer weapon, etc).

I would suggest not drawing too many parallels between real life spiritual traditions and Gloranthan mysticism. Yes, it is obvious that they refer to similar phenomena, on some basic level but real life is real life and Glorantha is a high fantasy setting so how these things play out is vastly different. We can look at the basics of spiritual realization in real life and adapt those to Glorantha, but it will morph very quickly from there into something different. These basics are things that have already been mentioned here several times. I especially liked simonh's concise explanation: To discuss a few other themes briefly, the idea of ego-death also comes with the idea that existence is illusion. This tends to come along (in almost paradoxical fashion) with an experience of the essential unity of existence, which usually keeps this from becoming a descent into nihilism. Also, the idea that one-becomes-many, or that the many-become-one, so that the concept of one almost becomes interchangeable for the concept of many, is another traditional hallmark. Indeed, the conciliation and bringing together of various oppositions is a definite feature - a move beyond dualism - and somewhat difficult to put into words, being more of a shared experience leading into patterns of thought that appear novel (at least to the initiate). Various spiritual traditions then splice these things up in various ways, but the essential experiences are remarkably similar. From these relatively similar beginnings, different directions are taken, though. As for whether Gloranthan mysticism is more theravada or mahayana, I feel this is getting too much into the weeds by bringing in real life stuff (though I'll do add a personal observation that I'd take it usually to be closer to vajrayana, actually). I'm pretty sure we can come up with belief systems which are analogous to either that could find places in Gloranthan cultures. I think it's more fruitful to take the basics of spiritual insights, then take the ball with it and run into the Gloranthan high fantasy wilderness, rather than necessarily compare in this manner.

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I do see the point now and ended up doing a bunch of pointed reading, so now I got a better insight into the Lunar Provinces. Definitely some potential plot hooks there for Lunar focused action, considering a possibly snubbed Hwarin cult seeking to regain influence, subjugated Orlanthi tribes who might be more willing to deal with them than the bureaucratic LPA (perhaps bolstered by old oaths still considered honorable and binding), and families seeking to exploit this to rival Tarsh/ErrioUnit influence in the Provinces.

Oh, I can't seem to place this in its correct context: why do you say Phargentes cancelled the influence of the Sylilan lineage of the Conquering Daughter in the Provinces?

So, the discussion in that thread above veered off towards lineages. This is the thread to continue that discussion. I have a couple of observations and ideas for additions to jajagappa's ErrioUnit family tree. This information is incorporating Life of Moonson (where applicable, so ignoring the now non-canon origin for Appius Luxius himself) and Coder stuff. So, Johanna, the child of Princess Anderida of the Coders, called Appius Luxius uncle. This would make sense if Anderida had a previous husband who was the (likely younger) brother of Appius Luxius. This way Appius would still have a relationship with Anderida (and Johanna), and would fit neatly with him bringing in his brother's widow into the Coders. Of course, Johanna isn't actually related to Appius, because she is the child of Prince Joh, the second husband of Anderida, but since he died in 1604, it would make sense for them to have a relationship. The second idea is based on Life of Moonson, which I'm not really suggesting needs to be incorporated, but just pointing out as interesting. There a Pardidas (b. 1588) is Satrap of Sylila and has a sister called Gerra, who is married to Gul-Taran, Satrap of First Blessed. She dies in an an attack on Gul-Taran's household in 1631. Not necessarily an impossible incorporation with minor changes, if someone was so inclined. As a bonus, here's my very rough lineage of the Eel-Ariash (hope you can read the text based family tree style): TakenEgi, Red Emperor, m. common woman in Doblian ----- Hon-Eel the Artess (1445-1506), the Dancer, the Third Inspiration of Moonson ----- ----- m. unknown male ----- ------ ----- [EelAriash Clan] ----- ------ ----- ------ ... ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- Unknown male (d. 1592), Satrap of Oronin ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- Kar-Eel, presumably dead before 1592 (since Var-Eel leads the house) ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- Jar-Eel the Razoress (b. 1588), m. King Moirades (1558-1610) ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----- Phargentes the Younger ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- Var-Eel (b. 1565 in Life of Moonson), head of the family, Satrap of Oronin ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----- marriage to unnamed woman ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- Euridice ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- unnamed son ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- unnamed son ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- Jaxarte Whyded ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----- marriage to unnamed woman ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- Sor-Eel (b. 1576 in Life of Moonson), "Short", Count of Prax and Governor of Pavis ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----- marriage to unnamed woman ----- ------ ----- ------ ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- Bor-Eel ----- ----- m. with King Pyjeemsab ----- ------ ----- Phonostres (1490-1535) ----- ------ ----- ----- [Tarsh]

Appius Luxius featuring there was a surprise, simple because my notes put him into a different lineage based on the Life of Moonson sources. Indeed, that material claims his family was killed by Celestinus (and that his father was favored by the previous Mask, Robustus). All that's hardly considered canon anymore though, but it is there. I also had been thinking that maybe the Red Emperor Celestinus was actually from ErrioUnit, due to the nature of the latter Masks, but this puts him as married to the line and thus favoring it. This take certainly works too! I do have a bunch of lineages collected from various sources in my notes and if we get the lineage discussion properly going I might have to dig 'em up. They're just collections though, not original work/development (I haven't gotten around to that point yet - they exist as very preliminary work for an eventual Lunar focused campaign).

Looking at my notes, I notice that your old Kings of Vanch list included the following comment: [Hastormal the Walker] later aided Phargentes and Algaratum Errio against the heirs of Hwarin in Jillaro. So, how does Algaratum Errio figure in the above list? Intended to be the same person as Unitadas? It perhaps seems likely Unitadas would've married his daughter to King Tantaral (the second son of Hartormal) as part of this deal/alliance (maybe she was first married to the first son, too?). Now that we're at it, I wonder if Tundarkal (Hastormal's uncle) had a political marriage which helped his nephew secure his rule. Also, can you tell I'm a sucker for lineage charts?

I'm very interested in this idea, as I've been planning to use Heroquest for community/larger scale stuff as an addition to my Runequest stuff. Currently at the raw idea stage, but I think it has merit. I'd love to hear more about this particular idea/execution if there is more to know!

There isn't a big enough palm for my face after reading that... maybe tell him that the pig is only sleeping (as I like to tell kids and anyone listening when I see roadkill).

That is a very solid review indeed. Once I get to running this Runequest, I might want to go back to this and have my players read parts of that to get some of the nuances of role-playing in Glorantha.