Squaredeal Sten

Thanks, Rick. I suppose what I am after is a paradigm shift: Rather than most of the merchant's profit being accounted for by his or her Bargaining skill, in long distance trade most should be accounted for by differences between regions in in price levels and scarcity. While Bargaining is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Because Bargaining can be applied anywhere, so why will a sane merchant go on the road unless he can find a systematic difference between locations? So what's my new paradigm? I am after getting past the idea of a single "standard price" and the merchant buying at half of it due to strong Bargaining. Instead there should be regional price differences, and the merchant's Bargaining skill is on top of that. I am for the list prices in the rules being Sartar prices, and applying time & distance = region differences. It doesn't really shake me up too much to know that the original campaign was done without carefully building a shadow economy, just by postulating that certain things were not produced in Balazar and other things were local exports and role playing it from there. I will settle for building a GM's rule of thumb so GMs don't really have to detail a shadow economy more than the original GM of the campaign did. I just want my rule of thumb to be compatible with the world-building already done, and also not to lead to foolish results like making money by bringing barley to Esrolia.

Thanks, there is a lot of material there. It will take me some time to read through.

I suggest that 'pre-industrial" doesn't matter much. Tattooing is done in prisons now, by people who have no access to modern tattooing machinery (electric needles) but do use those pre -industrial techniques. So it seems to me that the craft of tattooing must not be extraordinarily hard. The art, yes it takes talent to make good pictures on skin. But a Movement rune will not require extraordinary art.

I have never seen that discrepancy discussed. Always just assumed that people grew up in time to be grown. But if a Gloranthan year is the same as an earth year then the Dutch East India Company calculation based on 10 Gloranthan seasons instead of 13, comes to an 11.6% return per Gloranthan season. Within 1% of what I got for Joh Mith on re-calculation.

Probably true. And Runequest itself shies away from it: Since RQ2 Rune level characters are supposed to devote 90% of their time to the cult. Most rune priests get tied to a temple job. But what's our long term goal as players? To get our characters to be rune level. This has always seemed to me to be a recipe for retiring successful characters. Unless as you note the GM has the flexibility to plan the game events so they go more to politics and power, relationships and loyalties, less to munchkins knocking around the woods and ruins encountering whatever.

Joerg, you are probably right about my estimate being too conservative. Not only because of the risk premium - how would you calculate the risk premium? It is only partly compensated by my bullet point " The GM should also allow further price increases for places that can only be reached with unusual danger.", it is also conservative because because I have not proposed a standard risk premium for usual danger. So what do you think the chance is of the merchant taking a total loss and maybe having to pay ransom? If you were invited to be a Name in a Nochet Lloyds, what would you want to insure Joh Mith's caravan agaisnt loss of cargo and ransom? To insure a non-traveling merchant adventurer? Those answers would imply a range for standard risk premium. It's too bad we can't exchange Lunars between campaigns and go into the Gloranthan insurance business. I do note that Joh Mith's caravan is pretty large and includes capable rune levels and a tough troll, so he seems to have protected himself pretty well against robbery. And protected himself politically as well by working with the Lunars and for some of the royalty. So his setup actually seems low risk to me, at least in a Gloranthan context where we expect at least one encounter per game session. But there's a third reason my estimate above is too conservative: Reviewing my original step 2 calculation (which I originally did at about 3AM), I realize that Joh Mith needs to get the 50% annual return that I advocate over only four seasons, since as I wrote Dark Season is not usable caravan time. So 50%/4= 12.5% (simple) return per season on the road, not 10%, and that is before risk premium. Thanks for the opportunity to recheck my work. GMs, please increase prices of well-selected goods by at least 12.5% per season on the road, not 10%.. ---- ---- About the Dutch spice trade - If I recall correctly the Dutch sailed half way around a bigger world than Glorantha, and allowed about an Earth year to do it. Earth years are longer than Gloranthan years - 24% longer - so figure it's effectively 6.5 Gloranthan seasons one way, so 13 seasons both ways. Up until now I haven't been using compounding or exponents because the math will turn some folks off. But that time frame begs for them, so - if the Dutch doubled their capital in 2 years, hell call it triple because they have overhead too, wages to pay and depreciation on a wooden ship - 1.083 to the 13th power is 3.00. So the Dutch East India Company were getting a return of 8.3% per Gloranthan season of transport, compounded. Roughly, and with a big WAG for their wage and depreciation cost. (And the 17th century Dutch used "factories", permanent trading posts, which reduced the dwell time for their ships and so increased the rate of return because the ships didn't have to stay anchored while the goods were sold. This was a real non-Bronze-Age advance in commercial methods, one which helped them replace the Portuguese who sailed that route first. They also did occasional piracy against the Portuguese, which is a method of competition not taught in business school but which does have Bronze Age and also Viking antecedents.)

Is there a source of Issaries legends suitable for heroquesting as something other than Orlanth's sidekick? I see the Lightbringers Quest in King of Sartar,and other stuff also provides material for Orlanth, but no such equivalant for Issaries. What do the poor Issaries do at Sacred time?

You've lost me. Can you provide examples?

I may be getting off topic from DrGoth's orginal thought, so started a new topic:

Thoughts on GMing Gloranthan long distance trade: I previously posted links I had found showing various GMs’ work on Gloranthan long distance trade. These references include two approaches: (1) considerable work on defining regional exports and imports, and on trade routes; (2) alternatively, work on a formula for applying bargaining & evaluate skills and distance to produce profits or losses. Today I’d like to suggest approaching it from another direction, in two steps: Given what’s written in the RQG rules and supplements, what scale of reward is appropriate for successful long distance trade? From this, derive the price differences necessary to make merchant trade pay and make sense in the game. Basic information: We are told (p. 425 of RQG) in the calculation of annual income and standard of living, that in the course of ordinary business a merchant can expect a net 10% annual return on his stock of trade goods. For a starting initiate with a stock valued at 500L and decent Bargaining skill, that stock should produce a Free standard of living. We are also told in general terms (p.425) that the (annual) return on long distance trade can be “sometimes”100% or more. Long distance not defined, and overhead is referred to but not quantified. I note that this return is before applying the annual bonuses and penalties for omens, raids, harvests (should harvests even count when you move between regions?), and effect of Bargaining or Evaluate skill rolls. So STEP 1: What rate of return does the GM have to allow to make this come true on average for the adventuring merchant? Let’s assume that : ●There are at most four caravaning seasons a year, because Dark Season is unusable due to weather and Sacred Time is more than likely occupied by worship and celebration. ●The true long distance merchant will not be alone, but instead be running a caravan, with several guards, and will need to make enough on his capital to support the guards and probably replace a pack beast or two: That’s his overhead. My canon example of a long distance merchant is Joh Mith, running an annual caravan from Jonstown to and from Balazar. (Griffin Mountain pp. 91-104+) This caravan appears to be annual, requiring at least a season – plus going out and a season-plus coming back and some dwell time in Balazar, more time restocking and selling the return cargo after return to Sartar. Joh makes a profit both ways, going and coming. What is Joh Mith’s overhead? ●He employs 16 assistants and/or guards and animal handlers (Griffin Mountain p.99), who should be making a Free standard of living or better, see RQG p.423 for income for a Warrior = 60L/year. Cost of those guards: 16x60= 960L/year, part of which will be their living on the road and part will be in goods or cash. ●Once in Balazar Joh also employs 18 (Griffin Mountain p.99) seasonal Balazaring porters and guards who earn 1L/day per group of six (p.93) , so 3L/day for 2 seasons (112 days) = 336L payroll but that’s RQ2 prices: 168L converting to RQG (see p.432). ● As I said, Joh needs to provide for replacing a couple of mules per trip, standard cost 35 L at Sartar prices (but 350L a mule in Balazar!?), total 70L at RQG prices. Sum these three for Total Overhead: 1366L. We are not told what Joh Mith’s capital in Trade Goods is, but about 12 mules carry the caravan’s stuff. An average mule pointed up out of the Bestiary is STR21, SIZ15, so can carry 18 Things, and depending on stage of the trip 4 to 9 mules carry trade goods while the rest carry provisions, tents, bedrolls, cooking gear, and other necessities. So on average 7 Trade goods cargo mules. That allows 126 Things for Trade Goods. Let’s assume the heaviest cargo, worked bronze goods at 20L a Thing, that implies a value of about 2520L. That’s my minimum estimate for Joh’s capital, though we know he carries lighter luxury goods too. Let’s say his actual trade goods capital is 4000L! How much gross profit should Joh Mith be making, minimum, to continue this lifestyle? Joh has a wife (included in his own standard of living, also Rune level) and since he is rune level even if he stayed home instead of caravaning he should be making at least a thane’s or priest’s level of income, 200L/year. 1366 overhead + 200 income = 1566. CONCLUSION of Step One: Joh needs to take in at least a gross 1566L on his 4000L of capital, a 39% annual return. Say 40% and deal in round numbers. In my opinion Joh Mith must really be making a higher return than just his class’s base standard of living because he needs an incentive to not stay home. I advocate 50%, even before he makes his Bargaining skill roll. Your Glorantha will vary. This return doesn’t include what Joh Mith makes at the shop in Jonstown, or what his son and other family and retainers there cost to employ. This is the suggested model for profit on trading from one region to an adjacent region, Sartar to Balazar. Presumably trade with even more distant and/or more dangerous regions would come closer to the “long distance” 100% per year. (Historical Real World non-bronze age example: Marco Polo and his family came back from China with a lot of gems sewn into their clothes. But they were gone from Venice for about 20 years, and no one else they knew had made the trip.) STEP 2: How to apply this to the merchant adventuring on a less-than-annual time scale, considering the usual one adventure per season? 50% return over the year of 5 seasons = 10% return per season without compounding. At one “adventure” per season, roughly 10% gross return on capital per season in similar region to region trade. So this is where I suggest starting as a standard price level increase on Trade Goods, during an adventure, before applying Bargaining : ● For every season’s travel, properly chosen goods should get an increase in price of 10%. ● And “properly chosen” means goods that are not produced in or are in short supply in the destination region (such as trading bronze weapons into Prax), or at least novelties (pottery is made all over, but superior painted pottery of a foreign style can be a status symbol), or goods of superior quality and beauty. (Two examples: •Clothing is not rare in Sartar, but Esrolian fashions cost more there, which you will find in the price lists in RQG p.408. An ordinary set of linen clothes will cost 2L. I expect the 15L Esrolian dress costs less than 15L at the source in Esrolia, since the basic books are Sartar-centered.) •Wine is produced in a lot of places but only Clearwine produces Clearwine.) “Properly chosen” doesn’t include taking wheat and barley to Esrolia or generic furs to Balazar, nor fish to the waterfront in Nochet, nor pine trees to the Aldryami. ● The GM should reward role-played effort to find specific goods that will be in demand: In contrast to a generic “I buy 500 Lunars worth of trade goods”, you want to hear the player say “I buy spices and Esrolian fashions”. Maybe you give feedback and tell the player what sold well. And the second trip to an area, after the merchant has found out what sells well there and makes an effort to provide it, should pay off more than the first trip. ●The GM should also allow further price increases for places that can only be reached with unusual danger. (For example, trading into Dorastor counts a lot. Smuggling into the Lunar empire probably counts less. Since the GM controls the scale of danger in the campaign, the GM is the only one who can scale this price differential.) ●The GM should also reward monopolies and special access, such as being the only person who trades with the Mostali in X place for bronze or gems, or the only person who trades with the Uz in Y place for spider silk or for a SIZ increasing potion unique to the Uz, because the trader has a special relationship. It should take significant role play to achieve that special relationship: Coming from Nochet isn’t so special when trading there, though I will advocate for an augment to Evaluate if someone who grew up there is buying well known products of Nochet and makes an appropriate local knowledge roll. Merely speaking Darktongue does not establish a special relationship with trolls. But for a human to become an elf friend should require considerable role play plus having done an unusual service for the Aldryami of a certain grove. Once that is achieved that is a special relationship with those specific Aldryami, and the adventurer might find out that those Aldryami can make special plant products, also what they may want in return. Your thoughts?

Two thoughts: First: Alternative to bones of the gods: There is an adventure seed in one of the Heroquest supplements as I recall, in which a star falls from the sky (crack in the sky dome is visible), and where it hits is a very hot crater with scattered lumps of various metals. The adventurers are of course not the only folks who may pursue this find, and by the time the lumps of metal cool they are likely to have company . Second: Someone drafted up a monograph on trade in Glorantha, what various regions import and export. As I recall Sartar is a metal exporter. Which makes sense as it has many places significant to the Gods War. Lots of bronze bones or fragments thereof. Of course this is NOT canon, but I recall it as consistent. Let's search for it- OK, there has been more discussion of long distance trade in Glorantha than I thought. Sometimes opposed by people who find it dull in-game, or think their players will find it dull - but if everyone finds it dull then why have so many people discussed and detailed it? https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7804-quick-and-dirty-trade-rules/?tab=comments#comment-109960 http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~BLUEMAGI/QAtrade.htm https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/4624-trade-and-markets-in-glorantha/ https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/GloranthaDigest/vol07/3564.html https://notesfrompavis.blog/2016/05/23/trade-and-markets-in-glorantha/

At most a raised hearth to cook on. Which is more comfortable than stooping down for campfire cooking. And a wide hearth gives you a chance to put pots down near the fire, rather than just on the fire, and allows some prep area. Yeah the original Gringle's sketch was more a dungeon than a workable living and commercial space.

Thanks, those two heroquest books are a little gold mine of details for the area. So, by legend Larnste raised the land to put his stuff on; there is an Orlanth temple there, the local clan is named and poor, looks like a good place for a pilgrimage to fit the Movement rune. And in ?fire season? there are customary athletic races there. There is room for an update, post-rebellion - since presumably the Lunars are out, it should be safe to worship Orlanth there again.

The only canon information I've found on Larnste's Table, is that it's on the map NW of Red bird, and N of Birne's Squeeze, in the Thunder Hills, and is a flat topped hill or ridge. Does anyone know of any other information, canon or not, that details it?

Now a year later I'm working on Red bird myself, and glad to see your discussion.

Well it seems there was no such release in late 2019. Is this still going to happen?

Regarding Manu's original question part 2, " does he receive an elf bow? ". That elf bow exception that Phil Hibbs refers to is found in Cults of Prax, which is the latest reference since RQG's cults chapter omits Aldrya, and the Bestiary is pretty light on the cult. Cults of Prax p.102, in the section about elf bows: " Non-elves cannot do this as naturally as the wood-born elves. If such members wish such a bow they must spend a Rune point of permanent Power to do so, under the guidance of their local Tree Lord, and requiring four years total. " So a player character human member of Aldrya with an elf bow is going to be considerably older than others, and pass the tests for lay membership and for initiation... If your player just wants a more powerful bow it's easier to just get a composite bow and invest in spells. The whole write-up in Cults of Prax makes it pretty plain that it will be hard and take a long time for humans to join (see my bold print emphasis below) , longer to become an initiate, longer after that to get an elf bow, and may not be compatible with random adventuring with the rest of a party. If the GM actually has the player do all these die rolls the chance of coming through character generation as such a human is slim. First your human has to become a lay member: " Beastmen, dragonewts, ducks, and humans may sometimes join. They must pass the Gardeners’ examination, who will also make sure, through Divination, that the foreigner has no ill intents in mind or heart. The examination may be abstracted as POW + CHA divided by 2 X 5 on D100. CHA is always minus 10 for non-Aldryami races. Other races are not allowed to join. " "V. INITIATE MEMBERSHIP A. REQUIREMENTS FOR INITIATION Candidates for initiation ... must have been lay members for at least 2 years (for outsiders) and know all of the skills listed for lay members at least 50%, plus at least 1 point of all three spells. They also must prove themselves to the council of Elders. This is done by making a roll of POW + INT + CHA divided by 2 X 5 on D100. Note that non-Aldryami races must subtract 10 from their CHA for being from a foreign race. After initiation, though, they will always measure their CHA as if they were an elf, and will have the penalty when using CHA in relation to non-Aldryami. " AFTER this they can start to grow their elf bow. " C. MUNDANE BENEFITS: ELF CULT Initiates of the Elf Cult ..... Also, every elf receives his elf seed. This will be planted on his initiation day and, in one year, will be ready for harvesting and finishing to become a fabled Elf Bow. It will take another year to finish, and each new Initiate must dedicate one week each season to making it. In two full years it will be done. .... Non-elves cannot do this as naturally as the wood-born elves. If such members wish such a bow they must spend a Rune point of permanent Power to do so, under the guidance of their local Tree Lord, and requiring four years total. " " B. CONTINUING REQUIREMENTS: ELF CULT Initiates of the Elf Cult must take a working part in the elf society. " And what about your human's ambition to become rune level? Your adventuring days in company with human murder hobos are pretty much over: " Wood Lords must never eat meat (Aldryami never do, in any case) and must never kill except in defense of themselves and their woods. "

Re. " How long do you usually see rituals taking? ": Familiar examples of rituals in the present day, real world include: "Swearing in" people elected to office. Required for Federal office in the U.S., elements are prescribed and there is also an overlay of generally accepted gestures and symbols, like swearing on a holy book, although the Constitution does not prescribe a holy book. Practiced for other offices even in cases in which by law the person elected assumes the office regardless of ceremony. The Mass, as practiced by various Christian churches: Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic. They each have their own drill, having developed differences in practice over the last 2000 years. But in all cases the ceremony contains prescribed elements that are to be done in a prescribed sequence. The same applies to communion or "the lord's supper" in Protestant and Catholic churches alike. In the Protestant churches it stands alone but in the Catholic church it is part of the mass. In both cases it is a ceremonial reenactment that can be done "properly" or not, a ritual. Baptism is another ritual that will probably be familiar to you. Again the "proper" elements differ by religious tradition but each sect has their rules as to what makes it valid. For instance sects differ as to whether it has to be done by a male, or involves full immersion. "Saying grace' at the table is a ritual. Crowning a king or queen is a ritual. You may be able to find film of Queen Elizabeth being crowned. Here, I have found it for you: So you can see by these examples that there is no set length for "a ritual". Only different lengths for the specific rituals, depending on the acts that are part of the ritual. In Runequest terms the length of the description of a ritual depends on the imagination of the GM or adventurer describing it, and the tolerance for boredom of other people in the game. In my experience both are usually short. The description of a day-long ritual does not need to take a day. But if you have a description of a ritual that produces beautiful or striking mental pictures, I won't object when you use it.

I am interested to note that in the Bestiary entry under Dryad there is no mention of Dryads moving from material to spirit form and then reappearing. It seems the description got even shorter as a change from RQ3. I wonder whether that is an intentional change to Dryads, or just a result of editing down for space. I do note that dryads also are referenced in the Spirits section of the Bestiary, which appears much later, also that they are are not listed in its Nymphs sub-section, making that speculation less probable. Instead they seem to be a variety of Genius Loci. Incidentally my opinion: There should at least have been a cross-reference from Dryads to this. It's not good to make such important aspects of a creature into little detective mysteries that take deep immersion before the gamesmaster can find or know them.

The same is true of the ash trees that were planted when my house was built, about 40 years ago. New ash trees try to come up all over, not just next to the original tree, but also 60 feet away in the middle of the back yard. The original trees are dying now (one broke in a recent storm, a big part hit my house and storage building) but these saplings keep coming up. I would distinguish between 'a tree" and the whole root system that may include descendant trees. And say a warror of Wood is one tree trunk, not a whole grove.

So any fairly old grove of trees should have a dryad? Even in areas not very populated by Aldryami, such as most of Sartar? I wonder what sort of careful tending and for how long, whether elfs can accelerate the process. For storyline purposes my answer would be maybe, yes, rune magic not listed, yes through rune megic, and bury the time period. Seems to me there is considerable room to invent new Aldrya rune magic, just as there is considerable room to invent what else they can do with plants (arrow bushes etc.).

Question: How do you get a new dryad? How does a new or reseeded forest get dryads? if as Glorantha Bestiary p. 18 indicates, "they are always tied to the tree of their birth", and they are an all-female "race" that breeds with male brown and yellow elves, then how does territory inhabited by dryads ever expand? Or are dryads only to be found in forests that date back to godtime? This question would appear to be key to expansion of a complete aldryami ecosystem. What doesn't grow, dies - so this seems central to the future of the Aldryami.

Speaking about Reseedings which Sir Godspeed brought up - new forests imply to me that they will need new Great Trees. Providing those may require heroquests or at least rune magic beyond the scope of what adventurers would encounter. Or as simple as taking a cutting? It seems to me the chance of an Aldryami colony ( new forest or taking over or recovering an old forest) implies some method of generating a Great Tree.

Will do, thanks. And I don't know how blind I must have been not to include Cults of Prax. Which I see has one rune spell that exactly fits what I'm thinking about.

I'm thinking of a small adventure that may involve Aldryami, as the adventurers pass through a wooded area. It looks as if anything I do will be a first, which is surprising considering how long Runequest and Glorantha have been around. As far as I know there is no Aldryami equivalent to Trollpack. As I look for Aldryami background material, I only find the Aldryami section of (RQG) Glorantha Bestiary and its equivalent in (RQ3) Elder Secrets. which are near-duplicates; a couple of pages in Glorantha Sourcebook, and pp.59-69 of Guide to Glorantha. A few short mentions elsewhere in the last two references. The map in GTG does indicate that there are not many Aldryami in Sartar, which correlates to the dearth of printed material. I see the mentions of the Lunars burning two Aldryami forests, but no where or when for that. Is there anything more that you know of?