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Tizun Thane

Coat of Arms of Salisbury

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I was looking at this old armorial, and I found the blazon of "Hermin le Félon" very close to the one of the count of Salisbury.

Blason_Hermin_le_F%C3%A9lon.svg

http://marikavel.org/arthur/armorial.htm

 

This Hermin is a minor character, and was the (evil) brother of the king of the Red City. By the way, félon in french means "treacherous" or "perfidious". As his coat of arms was in a prestigious armorial, we can suppose he is a powerful knight (famous or extraordinary level). We can imagine an adventure where the count of Salisbury is accused of the felonies of Hermin le Félon, and are trying to clear the name of their liege ;)

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Under stress, you can not count precisely the stripes. It's easy to imagine the count being falsely accused of murder in front of the king Arthur by a squire who failed his heraldry roll. The count asks for a delay of forty days to prove his innocence. the PK must investigate, and any GM could craft a nice little adventure...

 

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Yep, I misread in haste. A very easy heraldry mistake to make at a glance. Although one would imagine that the good count has scores of knights vouching that he was holding court at Sarum/someplace else at the time of the murder. But he would definitely want to know what knave is going around bearing his arms and committing these crimes.

 

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11 minutes ago, Morien said:

Yep, I misread in haste. A very easy heraldry mistake to make at a glance. Although one would imagine that the good count has scores of knights vouching that he was holding court at Sarum/someplace else at the time of the murder. But he would definitely want to know what knave is going around bearing his arms and committing these crimes.

 

 Hermin le Fel (not Felon) appears as a Round Table knight during the Grail Quest in the Post Vulgate and Prose Tristan. He's of sufficient Glory that he's not obscure. The likeliest explanation is that Hermin is a relation of the Earl's, and the coat is not an accident, though it was held that near identical coats were permissible if they came from different countries.

'Armant' (Malory's Hermaunce) is a different character, not evil, who was slain by a serf and was king of the Red City/Ile Delitable in the Prose Tristan and Malory. But he died before the Grail Quest and can't be the same man who bore these arms.

Not to say that the possibility that Hermin le Fel committed a murder is impossible. Several RT knights were not good men, as we know.

Edited by jeffjerwin

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I suppose he appeared under this nickname in the old armorial. I am curious. What Fel (not félon) means?

18 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Armant' (Malory's Hermaunce) is a different character, not evil,

I readed somewhere that Hermin was the evil brother of this benevolent king.

Edit: It was in the armorial of Freddy Sibileau, who was hosted in the old Greg Stafford site. I found a (dubious) link.

http://doczz.fr/doc/422353/les-armoiries-des-chevaliers-de-la-table-ronde

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Quick googling: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/felt

Old FrenchEdit

EtymologyEdit

Proto-Germanic *faluz, cognate with felon.

Adjective

fel m (oblique and nominative feminine singular fele)

  1. evil
  2. vile; despicable quotations ▲
    • circa 1170, Chrétien de Troyes, 'Érec et Énide':
      "Fui!" fet Erec, "nains enuiieus!
      Trop es fel et contraliieus.["]
      "Flee" said Erec "pesky dwarf!
      You are too vile and maddening"

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3 hours ago, Morien said:

 

fel m (oblique and nominative feminine singular fele)

  1. evil
  2. vile; despicable quotations ▲
    • circa 1170, Chrétien de Troyes, 'Érec et Énide':
      "Fui!" fet Erec, "nains enuiieus!
      Trop es fel et contraliieus.["]
      "Flee" said Erec "pesky dwarf!
      You are too vile and maddening"

yes, well, a fell fellow is given to felonies. But they aren't quite the same. Anyway, Hermin le Fel is not a nice person, we can agree on that.

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6 hours ago, Tizun Thane said:

I suppose he appeared under this nickname in the old armorial. I am curious. What Fel (not félon) means?

I readed somewhere that Hermin was the evil brother of this benevolent king.

Edit: It was in the armorial of Freddy Sibileau, who was hosted in the old Greg Stafford site. I found a (dubious) link.

http://doczz.fr/doc/422353/les-armoiries-des-chevaliers-de-la-table-ronde

yeah. they can't be the same. I think Monsieur Sibileau made a small mistake. But Hermin, as Morien indicates, a bad person, regardless.

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Sorta unrelated but: I always wondered what exactly the way they came up with coat of arms back in the day was? Was it just picking what felt right for the lord based on meanings and deep symbolism? Or was it just whatever materials of paint they owned and what ever came first to their brains that felt good? I would imagine probably a little bit of column A and B. 

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4 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Sorta unrelated but: I always wondered what exactly the way they came up with coat of arms back in the day was? Was it just picking what felt right for the lord based on meanings and deep symbolism? Or was it just whatever materials of paint they owned and what ever came first to their brains that felt good? I would imagine probably a little bit of column A and B. 

Well the original idea was for the arms to be easily recognizable, as the knight in armor wasn't. That how the original rules of metals and  colors came about, and even today sports teams use similar rules for their uniforms top give them contrast and make them more readable. The coats of arms tended to start out simple and got progressively more complicated as more things were "taken" over time, and as knights wanted to show off family ties to other noble families.

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4 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Sorta unrelated but: I always wondered what exactly the way they came up with coat of arms back in the day was? Was it just picking what felt right for the lord based on meanings and deep symbolism? Or was it just whatever materials of paint they owned and what ever came first to their brains that felt good? I would imagine probably a little bit of column A and B. 

Yes. Though the choice of colors and charges was almost always influenced by their lord and their alliances. Often if a coat wasn't chosen, it was differenced from a father-in-law, or an overlord. The first type of heraldry is vary basic colors in some geometric pattern (two colors only, usually) so the knights might choose the same colors as their lord (Roderick of Salisbury uses the same colors as King Arthur, note). As animals and other complex charges were used, these acquired political meaning: for example the eagle = the Roman/German Empire; the lion = England, Anjou, the Welfs; the Lily = France.

Note that Gawaine received his arms (traditionally) from the Pope, and thus bears the double-headed eagle of Rome.

Consider what arms that your PK's ancestors' lords bore and it may suggest colors:

Uther: dragon(s), gold/yellow and green

Vortigern: lions; black and gold and red. {his arms: sable three escutcheons or, each charged with a lion gules)

Etc.

Also, certain colors do not appear in early heraldry, like brown or purple. Red and Blue are often associated with royalty.

 

Edited by jeffjerwin

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11 hours ago, Redmoongodess said:

Sorta unrelated but: I always wondered what exactly the way they came up with coat of arms back in the day was? Was it just picking what felt right for the lord based on meanings and deep symbolism? Or was it just whatever materials of paint they owned and what ever came first to their brains that felt good? I would imagine probably a little bit of column A and B. 

There is also the concept of canting arms (fr. armes parlantes).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canting_arms

For example, the cities of Lille or Florence both have a fleur-de-lys in their arms (lily, lilium in latin), because it sounds the same or evokes the flower in the name.

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