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When using the Luck table from Book of Knights and Ladies, I assume one does not use the Heirloom table from the KAP core rules?

Also, the sums of money and magical items in the Luck table are all distinctly a step up (or several steps up!) from the Heirlooms found in KAP core rules. I think that's great and am not worried about power creep. (Money will be spent, magical items will eventually be lost, and so on).

But can anyone tell me about the logic behind the inflation? After all, someone might end up with several years worth of treasure handed down from his father at the start of the campaign. Again, I don't see anything wrong with the items on the Luck table. But were the monies and items on the Heirloom table deemed too paltry or ineffective? Did Greg want to offer starting PC Knights a chance to be bolder and looser with his money?

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Finally, completed off topic, does anyone know what fonts were used throughout the book? (I really love them and want to use them for hand out material for my players.)

Edited by creativehum
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I can only answer your  off topic question. Adobe Acrobat Reader's Properties menu turns out the following fonts for BoK&L's PDF:

Buccaneer
Helvetica
SymbolMT
TimesNewRomanPS
Windlass
Wingdings

Apart from Helvetica, Times New Roman, Symbol and Wingdings, which are all fonts commonly available on most PCs, the remaining two are available as free downloads online:
Buccaneer: https://www.wfonts.com/font/buccaneer
Windlass: https://www.dafont.com/it/windlass.font

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Thanks! 

When I followed your instructions I think I also saw Goudy on the list.

since you seem facile with fonts, do you know which font was used for different kinds of text in the book. (I can sit there and compare as best I can, but if you are faster at identifying the fonts I'll let you tell me! If this would be work for you don't do it!)

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10 hours ago, creativehum said:

But can anyone tell me about the logic behind the inflation?

 I suspect it was to make the bonuses more memorable. Most of t he stuff on the old  table was rather bland. 3d20 denarii is pretty worthless. 

10 hours ago, creativehum said:

After all, someone might end up with several years worth of treasure handed down from his father at the start of the campaign. Again, I don't see anything wrong with the items on the Luck table. But were the monies and items on the Heirloom table deemed too paltry or ineffective? Did Greg want to offer starting PC Knights a chance to be bolder and looser with his money?

Probably. Most of the items on the old table were fairly useless. I'd say only the money awards of £1 o r more, the ancient sword, engraved ring, the healing potion,  the charger and the courser as being worth much. The new tables kinda made everything useful to some extent, and most things have some sort of benefit. That said, some find the new tables  to be worse, since there is now a greater swing in quality, with some of the new items  being very powerful, and others not all that useful. In my current campaign, one PK got the not-so wonderful cat, which died the first year, while the PK was still a household knight. Another, "poor"  knight started with £25 and was quickly able to upgrade himself to rich knight standards.  So it's still a mixed bag. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, creativehum said:

When I followed your instructions I think I also saw Goudy on the list.

I looked again, and couldn't find Goudy in the PDF's font list. However, it could depend on the exact printing you are looking at (I don't know which is mine, but it bears both GS Pendragon's and Nocturnal Media's logos).

1 hour ago, creativehum said:

since you seem facile with fonts, do you know which font was used for different kinds of text in the book. (I can sit there and compare as best I can, but if you are faster at identifying the fonts I'll let you tell me! If this would be work for you don't do it!)

I'm pretty sure Helvetica is nowhere to be seen, since it's a "sans serif" font that would be very conspicuous among the serif fonts used everywhere. Symbol and Wingdings are of course used for symbols and small glyphs within the body of the text. Times New Roman seems to be the main font used in the whole text. I think that all main titles are written in Buccaneer. However, I haven't found any instance of Windlass, which is a caps-only font (at least in the free version).

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4 minutes ago, mandrill_one said:

I'm pretty sure Helvetica is nowhere to be seen, since it's a "sans serif" font that would be very conspicuous among the serif fonts used everywhere. Symbol and Wingdings are of course used for symbols and small glyphs within the body of the text. Times New Roman seems to be the main font used in the whole text. I think that all main titles are written in Buccaneer. However, I haven't found any instance of Windlass, which is a caps-only font (at least in the free version).

Thanks! Your analysis confirms mine. (I was especially curious about Windlass!)

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12 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I suspect it was to make the bonuses more memorable.

That is my guess as well. I know some people don't like the Family Traits and the Heirloom/Tables for several solid reasons. But I find them compelling because they help establish the notion of the PC Knight's family as the focus of play.

And yes, they are swingy. Really don't know how to get around that. I'm not sure how I'd balance out a list of designed-to-be-unique-and-memorable items!

But I smiled a lot while looking over the list last night and think I'll use it for the PCs.

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I wasn't involved with the sausagemaking when K&L came out, so I can't comment on that.

My 2 denarii... 5.2 table is too little (mostly), K&L is too much, so BoS table is just about right for me. Granted, if your game is more high in magic, then K&L might be more your style. Me, I prefer a bit more mundane take. Like Atgxtg, I dislike the swinginess of K&L tables, and some of the stuff there is simply game-breaking (for example: Tooth of St. Germanus).

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56 minutes ago, creativehum said:

That is my guess as well. I know some people don't like the Family Traits and the Heirloom/Tables for several solid reasons. But I find them compelling because they help establish the notion of the PC Knight's family as the focus of play.

Me too. 

56 minutes ago, creativehum said:

And yes, they are swingy. Really don't know how to get around that. I'm not sure how I'd balance out a list of designed-to-be-unique-and-memorable items!

I think what might work would be to use  multiple tables or apply modifiers based on the PK. For example, poor knights couldn't get a lot of money,  spiritual/religious knights could be more likely to get artifacts  and so forth. The only way to balance them  out,  if that is desired, would  be to have a table full of items of approximately the same value.

 

I have used the tables (all three sets) to kinda codify wondrous items into tiers  o f some sort that I can use as a framework to create other items, including the  occasional magical treasure. I find I get some  nice items that way, although they are rare and not everybody gets them, or keeps them when they do.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Morien said:

Yep. "GIFTS, REWARDS, AND LOOT". It is used whenever the ancestor manages to get lucky with loot or rewards while you are rolling the family history.

Huh. 

Well, for now I think the Cymric Luck Table will do.

As for the imbalances, I really do think there are all sorts of advantages and disadvantages to each. For example, while the Tooth of Saint Germanus is indeed powerful, it requires a Passion roll (about God, no less) that can lead to all sorts of problems with a Failure or Fumble. Recovering from that can be an adventure in itself as the Knight struggles to right his faith again. And if the Knight uses it frequently he would definitely be marked by Saxons as a holy man of the Jesus-God who needs to be taken down. And if the Player pumps the Love (God) to very high levels that will, again, lead to adventure material and trouble. 

As for an Ordinary Knight acquiring a great deal of treasure, my own read is that it is a hidden treasure the father kept secured and the son did not even know about it yet.

A note: I'll be using the basic setup from KAP core rules for new PC Knights. So they are all Ordinary, and have gone through the Family History from the core rules. I'm sifting through BK&L to see what, if any, elements and ideas I want to port into that process.

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1 minute ago, creativehum said:

Huh. 

The table in SIRES is designed more to see what sort of rewards a character's ancestor got for doing something significant/heroic in the past.  It's not really on par with the ususal character tables,  but does have a few nice things on it. Generally a PK will get an item worth a  couple of libra or may be something useful that grats a +1 modifier to a skill.

1 minute ago, creativehum said:

As for the imbalances, I really do think there are all sorts of advantages and disadvantages to each.

Yup. It really comes down to how happy the GM is with a random table, and  the relative power level of the items introduced.

 

1 minute ago, creativehum said:

As for an Ordinary Knight acquiring a great deal of treasure, my own read is that it is a hidden treasure the father kept secured and the son did not even know about it yet.

What about a Poor Knight? What happened in play was that two of the orgnial PKS started off Poor, but thanks to the Luck Table  they both would up with enough libra to upgrade to the equivalent of a rich knight.  Now it certinaly worked as far as mecha nics went, but it wasn't all that interesting  or memorable. 

1 minute ago, creativehum said:

A note: I'll be using the basic setup from KAP core rules for new PC Knights. So they are all Ordinary, and have gone through the Family History from the core rules. I'm sifting through BK&L to see what, if any, elements and ideas I want to port into that process.

IMO K&L Is alright, except for all the trait bonuses that kick in with the random method. A players gets to roll random, apply  religion and regional modifiers, get's 3 points to shift traits around in one spot, then 6 more elsewhere, and then has the option of using one or more of his picks to do the same. In the end it becomes the fast track to the religious and chivalry bonuses, and tons of glory. Now according to something Greg posted it appears one of those bonuses wasn't intended to stack with the random method. 

What also doesn't help is that PKs are automatically assumed to qualify for knighthood now, so players have less reason to round out their characters and more reason to focus on one or two key skills during chargen. No one has to worry about Loyalty (Lord) anymore, and since it starts at 15, it will probably wind up a 16 fairly quickly, as it is a win-win for the PK. They get noted for being more loyalty which  helps at  court, and they g et 16 glory per year for it.

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51 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

What about a Poor Knight? What happened in play was that two of the original PKS started off Poor, but thanks to the Luck Table  they both would up with enough libra to upgrade to the equivalent of a rich knight. 

My own take would be, as the GM, to build a bit of a story about where the money came from. What what was the story and how did it mark the family? What continues to echo today for the family or PC Knight? Where did they loot it from? Who helped them? Who might be angry about it being taken?

That's how I would be looking at it.

(Also, as a side note, I wouldn't make the little cat roll for death until two or three years had passed. But, again, that's me.)

As for PC Knight creation, I'll be having the Players use the method found in KAP core rules, which BK&L refers to as the "Standard Method." I'm not a big fan of random creation for KAP. It's swingy and determines A LOT about the character.

I'd rather the PC Knights begin around the same point (around, not identical) and build their Knights from there. As BK&L suggests I won't be allowing previous experience for first Knights either. Again, keep it simple: every Knight relatively straight forward based on religion, homeland, regional modifiers, Family History, and a few points to distribute.

And then the Players get to see how the game works and build their Knights from there.

Edited by creativehum
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3 hours ago, creativehum said:

My own take would be, as the GM, to build a bit of a story about where the money came from. What what was the story and how did it mark the family? What continues to echo today for the family or PC Knight? Where did they loot it from? Who helped them? Who might be angry about it being taken?

That's how I would be looking at it.

You could do that, but frankly it won't last long enough. Generally players will spend that libra ASAP to upgrade their armor and other gear. 

3 hours ago, creativehum said:

 

(Also, as a side note, I wouldn't make the little cat roll for death until two or three years had passed. But, again, that's me.)

The cat is mixed blessing, as not only can it die out but it can also produce another cat. If a PK gets lucky he could end up with a dozen of the critters. 

 

3 hours ago, creativehum said:

As for PC Knight creation, I'll be having the Players use the method found in KAP core rules, which BK&L refers to as the "Standard Method." I'm not a big fan of random creation for KAP. It's swingy and determines A LOT about the character.

I preferred random generation  (it was the standard method in KAP1), but am n ot  a fond of it in K&L due to the trait bonus, and higher starting scores.

3 hours ago, creativehum said:

I'd rather the PC Knights begin around the same point (around, not identical) and build their Knights from there. As BK&L suggests I won't be allowing previous experience for first Knights either. Again, keep it simple: every Knight relatively straight forward based on religion, homeland, regional modifiers, Family History, and a few points to distribute.

And then the Players get to see how the game works and build their Knights from there.

Reasonable, e specially if running new players. I prefer starting them off as squires, as it is tad more forgiving, and lets them imrpove their characters a bit in one area or another before getting kn ighted, but it's pretty similar.

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1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

You could do that, but frankly it won't last long enough. Generally players will spend that libra ASAP to upgrade their armor and other gear. 

Clearly I didn't explain my point well, so I apologize. No matter when the PC Knight blows the inheritance, the people his father or grandfather took it from could come back years later. It could start a feud that lasts years after that.

The same goes for other items on the list. Was the cat a witch's familiar gifted to the PC Knight's father? Where did the deadly sword come from? If it breaks, does it need to go back to that church for a blessing after mending? And so on.

Further, if I had a PC Knight in that situation involving the money you have mentioned above, I would offer the counsel that saving some of the money would be worthwhile. For example, spending an extra bit of libra every year might mean the difference between life and death for his children. The Player might not follow this wisdom (which would be fine) but since all my players will be new to the game and their characters would know how the world works, it would only make sense to make this plain and clear.

Getting better gear is good. But in the Uther Period there's only so much you can do, and spreading out out and having available for emergencies strikes me as a better use of the cash than too many horses.

 

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16 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Clearly I didn't explain my point well, so I apologize. No matter when the PC Knight blows the inheritance, the people his father or grandfather took it from could come back years later. It could start a feud that lasts years after that.

The same goes for other items on the list. Was the cat a witch's familiar gifted to the PC Knight's father? Where did the deadly sword come from? If it breaks, does it need to go back to that church for a blessing after mending? And so on.

You could do that, but then it's not very good luck  is it? I'm not sure if these things should come back to  haunt the players later. I mean, you certainly can do  that, but I think it might the players more worried about their good luck than happy about it. 

16 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Further, if I had a PC Knight in that situation involving the money you have mentioned above, I would offer the counsel that saving some of the money would be worthwhile. For example, spending an extra bit of libra every year might mean the difference between life and death for his children. The Player might not follow this wisdom (which would be fine) but since all my players will be new to the game and their characters would know how the world works, it would only make sense to make this plain and clear.

The thing is there is very little a PK can d o t hat is better than upgrading his armor. The difference from 8 to 10 is huge.

16 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Getting better gear is good. But in the Uther Period there's only so much you can do, and spreading out out and having available for emergencies strikes me as a better use of the cash than too many horses.

Armor is the first priority, and since the players who rolled money were both poor, upgrading their gear was really the best thing  they could have done  under the circumstances. Now if they hadn't been poor knights, then  it would have been different. But since they started as poor, household knights there was really nothing better they could have done then to upgrade their gear, especially their armor.

Now it's over 40 years later and the grandsons will b e coming in with the best gear the PKS can spare, plus a manor (for most of the PKs) and maybe some coin. The first generation did well to establish the families, and the second has managed t o maintain it, so far. 

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And the cat can die. And the sword can break. And shouting the praises of God to drive off Saxons can drive you mad. All of these items can become "not very good luck." 

I understand that having baggage attached to a small fortune might not appeal to you. But I was spitballing an idea as to how to make the treasure memorable. (That was the source of this subtopic from a post of yours further upthread.) It introduces the same sort of possible misfortune and disappointment. I'll add I would only do it if the Player introduced NPCs that his father or grandfather had taken it from. I do this all time time. "Tell me more about these objects and people in your life. What would you be interested in seeing more of?"

As for the random nature of character creation I also find it appealing. But I'd save it for after five or so sessions of play, after the players had a solid handle on the system and knew what they were getting into. But even then I'd really warn them about how swingy it can be, and suggest they take the option of the standard character creation. It can go bad as much as it can go good.

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 12/12/2019 at 7:20 PM, creativehum said:

But I was spitballing an idea as to how to make the treasure memorable. (That was the source of this subtopic from a post of yours further upthread.) It introduces the same sort of possible misfortune and disappointment. I'll add I would only do it if the Player introduced NPCs that his father or grandfather had taken it from. I do this all time time. "Tell me more about these objects and people in your life. What would you be interested in seeing more of?"

One wrinkle that we added in Book of Sires was to inform players when to roll on the table. That way, they had a direct connection to it and the gamemaster could use it to create further plot points if it was desired.  The above method also does it, but requires the players to work a bit more, but also works.

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2 minutes ago, Hzark10 said:

One wrinkle that we added in Book of Sires was to inform players when to roll on the table. That way, they had a direct connection to it and the gamemaster could use it to create further plot points if it was desired. 

Could you tell me more about this? I'm not quite sure what this means.

Thanks!

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24 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Could you tell me more about this? I'm not quite sure what this means.

Thanks!

I believe the aforementioned poster meant that the Book of Sires has certain events where you ancestor is rewarded with/acquires a notable treasure or heirloom. BoS has its own table. It's pretty good.

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47 minutes ago, creativehum said:

Could you tell me more about this? I'm not quite sure what this means.

Thanks!

As Anuillan pointed out, in SIRES when a PKS ancestor does well in certain events, usually battles, there is a chance he could be reward with a roll on table 1.13. Something like this:

Quote

20 Defeated Aquitainian leader in single combat. Gain 100 Glory and make a roll on Table 1.13: Gifts, Rewards and Loot, p. 21.

That ties the reward to a specific event, and gives it more history and meaning. The item is no longer just something that the player rolled on the Luck table, but instead because the thing that their grandfather received from Prince Aurelius for his bravery against the Suebi. 

Table 1.13 is a Luck Table on page 21 in the Book of Sires that has a bunch of toned down items. Most items are cups, clothing, and other crafted items worth about £2 libra, with some items being worth £4, £6, or even £10. The best items on the table, IMO are the "magnificent" sword and saddle (two separate items) each of which grants +1 to the skill of the user. 

Overall the items on 1.1.3 are much weaker than sopme of the items in K&L, but can have more meaning since their history is better worked out. A GM could, howver, replace one of the rolls on table 1.13 with a roll on the K&L table to add the the backstory of a item from K&L.

 

I actually use all of the tables at various time in my campaign, depending on the circumstances. 

 

 

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