Worship practices between clans and associated cults

[Lordabdul]

1. When you look at the Sartar maps, you see a bunch of special/important holy sites (Orlanth's Hill, Humakt's Hill, Old Wind, or even the Clearwine Earth temple).
   1. Are these exclusive to the clans whose tula they're on?
   2. Exclusive to the tribe? In which case do other clans in the same tribe come there often for worship? Would they have to go through the usual Orlanthi etiquette every time? (greetings, promise of non-harm/politeness, gifts to the chieftain, etc.) Or would they have a "special pass" with an agreed upon path they can use at pre-defined times of year or something?
   3. Or are these sites special enough that tribes from all around gather there on special occasions? (I imagine that would be a big fucking deal, like the Woodstock or Burning Man of Orlanthi religion)
2. When you consider friendly/associated cults, how do you deal with potentially "offensive" practices. For example, some Orlanthi organize a yearly bear hunt as a sacred ritual. What do the Odayla initiates in the clan have to say about that? (in that specific example, I know that Odayla is supposed to be both a bear hunter and the bear itself so it might be a bit more complicated, but you know what I mean)

Edited December 15, 2019 by lordabdul

[soltakss]

5 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

When you look at the Sartar maps, you see a bunch of special/important holy sites (Orlanth's Hill, Humakt's Hill, Old Wind, or even the Clearwine Earth temple).

Yes, Sartar has a number of Sacred Sites.

5 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Are these exclusive to the clans whose tula they're on?

To a certain extent, yes.

Having such a Sacred Site on your tula gives a clan extra prestige. Quite often, the clan has its own special rites that are held at the Sacred Site and gives them bonuses.

However, such Sacred Sites are also money-making opportunities. i can see worshippers from friendly clans being allowed free access to the Sacred Sites, but other worshippers being asked to pay a fee or have to ask permission to go there. Of course, it all depends on the relative power of the clan, are they powerful enough to stop worshippers from accessing the Sacred Sites?

In any case, I would expect the local clan to have souvenir stalls, sell provisions to worshippers, sell icons or memorabilia based on the Sacred Site.

9 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Exclusive to the tribe? In which case do other clans in the same tribe come there often for worship? Would they have to go through the usual Orlanthi etiquette every time? (greetings, promise of non-harm/politeness, gifts to the chieftain, etc.) Or would they have a "special pass" with an agreed upon path they can use at pre-defined times of year or something?

Members of the same tribe as the clan would simply have to show kinship or show they are members of the same tribe. Similarly, friends of the Sacred Site's Holy People should be able to access the Sacred Site.

I would say that it would be polite to always go through the ritual, formal greeting, as it would be considered impolite to not do so. 

11 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Or are these sites special enough that tribes from all around gather there on special occasions? (I imagine that would be a big fucking deal, like the Woodstock or Burning Man of Orlanthi religion)

That probably happens as well.

In this case, though, surrounding tribes might be hostile, or unfriendly, so might have to grit their teeth when having to ask the local Clan Chieftain or Tribal King for permission to access the Sacred Site.

There would be a big camp around the site, like at Woodstock or Burning Man, especially on important days. Locals would supply them with food and drink, perhaps for free or they might sell them. 

13 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

When you consider friendly/associated cults, how do you deal with potentially "offensive" practices.

The same way as you deal with other offensive practices. You either oppose them or ignore them.

14 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

For example, some Orlanthi organize a yearly bear hunt as a sacred ritual. What do the Odayla initiates in the clan have to say about that? (in that specific example, I know that Odayla is supposed to be both a bear hunter and the bear itself so it might be a bit more complicated, but you know what I mean)

Some clans might have a strong Odayla presence and might downplay the Bear Hunt. Others might be enemies of Odayla and play up the Bear Hunt. It all depends on local clan politics and beliefs.

Babeester Gor killed the Healers of Healer Vale, but that doesn't mean that on every High Holy Day they kill a Healer. Cults choose which rites and festivals they hold, tailoring them to the local sensibilities.

[Joerg]

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

• When you look at the Sartar maps, you see a bunch of special/important holy sites (Orlanth's Hill, Humakt's Hill, Old Wind, or even the Clearwine Earth temple).
  • Are these exclusive to the clans whose tula they're on?

The marriage quest in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes has the Malani priestess Ernalsulva from the Greenstone Temple as the contested earth queen priestess for a Colymar (Orlmarth) and a Lismelder (Greydog) candidate. Despite the Clearwine temple being right across the corner.

The Clearwine temple is the main earth temple for the southern Colymar clans (the northern ones have the choice beween Clearwine and Greenstone), and probably serves the neighboring tribes, too.

 

The Hill of Orlanth is holy to all Sartarites and protecting it was the initial action of the Starbrow Rebellion, by a confederation of tribes. (Actually by the members of Kallyr's High Council.)

 

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

• Exclusive to the tribe? In which case do other clans in the same tribe come there often for worship? Would they have to go through the usual Orlanthi etiquette every time? (greetings, promise of non-harm/politeness, gifts to the chieftain, etc.) Or would they have a "special pass" with an agreed upon path they can use at pre-defined times of year or something?

Orlanthi etiquette yes, towards the temple. Pilgrims to the temple might be exempt from involuntary hospitality.

Preventing a pilgrim's access to a temple would be an offense against that temple. A feud might balance that, though.

 

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

• Or are these sites special enough that tribes from all around gather there on special occasions? (I imagine that would be a big fucking deal, like the Woodstock or Burning Man of Orlanthi religion)

The Hill of Orlanth Victorious was the site for royal rites, a good luck place for starting heroquests and military campaigns. Harmast started his (first) LBQ here (not sure about the second, but possibly too). Possibly one of the holiest places in Sartar. And probably the border marker for three local clans.

Places inhabited by local deities (like Tarndisi's Grove) may be outside of human-claimed lands.

 

12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

• When you consider friendly/associated cults, how do you deal with potentially "offensive" practices.

The worst example of offensive practices probably is the Lead Cross quest which requires the slaying of Chalana Arroy healers.

But other than this diametrically opposed pair of Life and Death I have a hard time to think about really offensive practices between cults of the Orlanthi. Heler or Orlanth vs. Elmal/Yelmalio is the next most likely problem, I guess.

Then there is the Lariat and Stick feat by which an Orlanth cultist might humiliate Storm Bull cultists.

If an Orlanth temple was having a great hunt, it would certainly include the local Odayla holy people in it. Odayla may have a separate existence, but he is a Storm Brother (i.e. subcult of Orlanth), too.

The aurochs hunt that Argrath is going to hold in a number of years (possibly as a preparation for the big marriage to Inkarne) will involve Orlanth, Odayla and Storm Bull holy people.

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Lead Cross quest

Is this even practiced anymore? I thought it had long died out in Humakti cults and thus any knowledge of the Lead Cross would then have likely been forgotten. (Advantages of a semiliterate society.)

[Qizilbashwoman]

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Odayla may have a separate existence, but he is a Storm Brother (i.e. subcult of Orlanth), too.

when is Odayla female and when is Odayla male

[Joerg]

Humakt's Lead Cross Quest:

27 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Is this even practiced anymore? I thought it had long died out in Humakti cults and thus any knowledge of the Lead Cross would then have likely been forgotten. (Advantages of a semiliterate society.)

There are bound to be some incorrigible fanatics somewhere who maintain the quest, at least in the weakest form (as a practice quest). Humakti react to rumors of undead and returnees from death a lot like Storm Bulls react to suspicion of Chaos.

 

27 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

when is Odayla female and when is Odayla male

Whenever she needs to be female, she will be. Changing into beast form is a much greater trick than maintaining sex.

Hsunchen ancestral deities are both male and female, sometime in distinct bodies and coupling with one another, sometimes alternating between manifestations.

 

Still, the standard form is likely to be the male grizzly bear, and the bearded son (or aspect) of Orlanth.

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Clearwine temple is the main earth temple for the southern Colymar clans (the northern ones have the choice beween Clearwine and Greenstone), and probably serves the neighboring tribes, too.

Sure, so would people from the neighboring clans (or even clans from a few lands away) come on a regular basis to this big temple, or would they typically stay at their own shrines and small temples, only coming to Clearwine for special occasions/specific missions?

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Orlanthi etiquette yes, towards the temple. Pilgrims to the temple might be exempt from involuntary hospitality.

Preventing a pilgrim's access to a temple would be an offense against that temple. A feud might balance that, though.

I assume they're still going to be stopped by the local clan's weaponthanes, requiring to declare their identity and intentions? If they're coming from a clan currently in very poor standing, the chieftain might allow them access to the temple but at a hefty toll to be allowed to travel to it or something?

But basically I'm trying to figure out how much regular traveling there is between clan lands. There's enough examples and information on occasional traveling (like when the PCs are on a mission or something), but I haven't found much about what seasonal activity looks like besides tribal moots.

Edited December 15, 2019 by lordabdul

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Sure, so would people from the neighboring clans (or even clans from a few lands away) come on a regular basis to this big temple, or would they typically stay at their own shrines and small temples, only coming to Clearwine for special occasions/specific missions?

Yes, each of the clans will have a temple to Ernalda and Orlanth and its wyter in their own lands. But these temples have a limited number of shrines and subcults, and worshipers may require a pilgrimage to access certain spells, or to have certain magical rites performed in their name. With fringe cults like the Lightbringer cults, a congregation of temple size is likely only found in the cities of Sartar, perhaps only in Boldhome (e.g Yelmalio). (And even Boldhome had no resident Storm Bull priest in 1614, and required a Praxian cultist to lead the ceremony which was disrupted so conveniently for Estal Donge.)

 

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I assume they're still going to be stopped by the local clan's weaponthanes, requiring to declare their identity and intentions? If they're coming from a clan currently in very poor standing, the chieftain might allow them access to the temple but at a hefty toll to be allowed to travel to it or something?

One important source of income for the Princes of Sartar was enabling traffic, and I suppose that Sartar snuck a condition into the founding of the City Confederation that guarantees passage on the main roads (also lesser ones than the royal highways).

 

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

But basically I'm trying to figure out how much regular traveling there is between clan lands. There's enough examples and information on occasional traveling (like when the PCs are on a mission or something), but I haven't found much about what seasonal activity looks like besides tribal moots.

Most Orlanthi may travel once or twice a year beyond their clan lands to a market or fair (e.g. the tribal moot). It takes semi-professional trouble-shooters to leave their home once a season (as per RQG - and even there, I would place a couple of scenarios at home).

Certain professions will be away from home most of the year - traders, hunters, transhumant herders, miners, charcoal burners.

Pilgrims (especially cultists of minority cults) will be on the way to their temples for major festivals. And diplomats and matchmakers will carry out the will of the ring in distant clans, along with their escorts/honor guards.

Cattle raiding is another good reason for leaving the clan lands... I wonder whether migratory herder groups go after nearby transhumant herds of other clans, or whether the cattle raids are usually started from the clans' home area.

[soltakss]

30 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I assume they're still going to be stopped by the local clan's weaponthanes, requiring to declare their identity and intentions? If they're coming from a clan currently in very poor standing, the chieftain might allow them access to the temple but at a hefty toll to be allowed to travel to it or something?

Yes, of course that could happen.

if the weaponthanes notice the pilgrims are from a hostile clan, then they would charge extra.

However, there is nothing to stop the pilgrims saying "We are merely pilgrims come to share in Orlanth's Winds at Orlanth's Hill", or some similar ritual response. Don't forget, they could answer with the "Good Greetings in Ill times, friend" Lightbringer Response and the weaponthanes can't do much about it.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

However, there is nothing to stop the pilgrims saying "We are merely pilgrims come to share in Orlanth's Winds at Orlanth's Hill", or some similar ritual response. Don't forget, they could answer with the "Good Greetings in Ill times, friend" Lightbringer Response and the weaponthanes can't do much about it.

...and thus the Custom and Cult Lore skills prove their mettle to the wise adventurer