Unexperienced Adventurers

[Lordabdul]

If I wanted my players to have "unexperienced" adventurers, how would I change the character creation rules?

By "unexperienced" I mean around 17 or 18 years old (instead of the default 21). To keep things simple (especially in the matter of Rune affinities and magic), we will only consider characters that did go through their adulthood and cult initiation, albeit very recently.

1. Skill Points

The first thing is obviously to adjust starting skill scores.

• I'm going to assume that the Homeland cultural skill bonuses are predominantly driven by everything you learn from just growing up there, so I don't think we need to change those.
• For occupational skill bonuses, I would change the bonuses from 30/20/15/10 to 20/10/8/5 (less time spent doing your occupation).
• Cult skill bonuses would be halved (round up).
• Personal skill bonuses: I would change the bonuses from 25/10 to 20/10 (not too much change... you learned most of your favourite things while being a teenager/young adult).

The idea is that, at best, you got 30+25=+55% at character creation for a "normal" adventurer skill but, at best, 20+20=+40% for an "unexperienced" character skill. If the adventurers are 3 years younger, that's 15 seasons' worth of adventuring to "catch up" to a "normal" RQG adventurer. For your most useful skills (like weapon skills), you probably roll for improvement every season. Over the course of these 3 years, you might average to rolling above 70%, so with an average 1D6 roll, that's about +16% experience, just enough to catch up. If you can squeeze in a bit of training before you reach the 75% threshold, you're better off! And for the less-often used skills, you might actually come up better than a normal starting adventurer anyway because the starting bonuses don't take as much as a drop at creation.

2. Rune Magic

You only get 1 Rune point and 1 Rune spell, although you can of course sacrifice extra POW at character creation to get more. It can get tricky when all your cult's Rune magic costs 2 points (I'm looking at you, Odayla, and your stupid overpriced shapeshifting magic!), so you might have to sacrifice extra.

3. Spirit Magic

You only get 2 points of Spirit magic.

4. Base Income

I suppose that's the same regardless of experience -- it's just that the younger adventurer might not succeed as often in the first years. But it does open up various worldbuilding questions.

For instance, take a farmer. I think it's really implied that you have your own family to look after, and that the base income is used for supporting your household. But if you just recently became adult, you might still be working on your parents' farm? (and your parents get either 80L or 40L, depending on whether they're free or tenant farmers, to maintain the household which includes you) At this point, do you basically get "pocket money", as decided by the GM/player? When does a kid effectively leave their parents' home and builds their own household? I assume there's a process where the clan ring assigns lands, as they become available, at which point the young adult moves in with whichever girlfriend/boyfriend they have at the time (or even gets one assigned as a year-marriage or agreement with nearby clan). But what happens to the previous farm household (probably an elder couple) ? Assuming they're not blood-related to you, do they move out and go live with their own relatives at a different farm?

I'm hoping to make this part of one of the early adventures, but I want to make sure I've got this right.

5. Ransom

I would be tempted to make that lower at first, but frankly I don't know if it's worth it. Are there any rules to increase one's Ransom as one gets more important/expert/etc? I suppose that's really narratively driven in practice?

6. Equipment

No changes.

 

That's it! Does that look fair?

Edited December 29, 2019 by lordabdul

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

we will only consider characters that did go through their adulthood and cult initiation, albeit very recently.

Given that qualification, I'd probably skip the Cult skill bonuses and might skip the Rune Points too.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

ou might still be working on your parents' farm?

If you think of it more as a "clan" farm, then they'll be expected to contribute at whatever level an adult should for that occupation. I wouldn't get heavily into the economics around this and just go with the basic level - you've got enough else to keep track of.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I would be tempted to make that lower at first, but frankly I don't know if it's worth it.

As with the Standard of Living, I'd keep this basic/same. Only when you get to distinctive levels of members of the clan ring, head of a bloodline, or members of the priesthood would I consider varying it.

[Lordabdul]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

Given that qualification, I'd probably skip the Cult skill bonuses and might skip the Rune Points too.

Why? When you go through cult initiation, don't you sacrifice your first point of POW and get your first Rune point? What would you do with a Rune point without a Rune spell? And sure, there might be some time elapsed between those 2 events, but isn't the whole point of divine magic that you just let your deity do the job, so there's not much to train, really? Which means it might be as fast as a few days before you figure out your first Rune spell...

I could see the argument for skipping the cult skill bonuses, but then you probably end up less skilled than a normal RQG character 3 years later (assuming my math is right).

[Austin]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Why? When you go through cult initiation, don't you sacrifice your first point of POW and get your first Rune point? What would you do with a Rune point without a Rune spell?

I think this is relying on the whole irritating "cult initiation =/= adulthood initiation" thing again.

Which TBF was something I'd had in mind, if I were to ever write up my own variant of "unexperienced adventurers." Probably something with adventurers who've just become adults, or had been just a year or two. Runes starting to solidify (I assume first discovered/revealed during adulthood initiation), able to augment (as the most minor magic a Gloranthan has) and able to cast a couple points of spirit magic, but no Rune magic or cult initiation.

I think initiate-initiate at 17/18 does still work, it's just not what I had in mind for my own variant of this sort of char-gen.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Why? When you go through cult initiation, don't you sacrifice your first point of POW and get your first Rune point? What would you do with a Rune point without a Rune spell? And sure, there might be some time elapsed between those 2 events, but isn't the whole point of divine magic that you just let your deity do the job, so there's not much to train, really? Which means it might be as fast as a few days before you figure out your first Rune spell...

Really depends on if you want new adult or new cult initiate. If you want the latter, then yes sacrifice first point of POW, get your first Rune point, and select a Rune spell.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I could see the argument for skipping the cult skill bonuses, but then you probably end up less skilled than a normal RQG character 3 years later (assuming my math is right).

You could make a case for getting something like an initial 5% in Cult Lore as a lay member. But largely you won't get that or Worship until you initiate.

Once initiated, then the "Almost all cults offer training in Cult Lore and Worship for free to initiates" kicks in and those will get boosted quickly (so should be able to reach the skills for normal RQG character). Also you'll get the benefit of: "The initiate may also learn cult skills from the temple at a special price (typically half price or even free)."

But if you've just been initiated, then I'd say you get whatever foundational level is appropriate for Cult Lore and Worship and all else comes after. You can likely figure a general buildup by taking the number of remaining cult skill bonuses and dividing by the # of holy days to see roughly what they should gain per season.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

When does a kid effectively leave their parents' home and builds their own household?

Commonly at marriage, one would imagine? I don’t believe most Orlanthi young men could manage a household anyway. And marriage is unlikely to happen for men before their twenties, because it takes resources (possibly it’s different for nobles).

Of course, if you become a housecarl or something, then you move out from your family anyway. Same thing if you end up in a proper military unit.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

I think this is relying on the whole irritating "cult initiation =/= adulthood initiation" thing again

For many cults and cultures, they would happen around the same time. So GM is going to have fun choosing which do and which don't 😁

Similarly with occupation. Some lend themselves to earlier cult initations (e.g., priest... As the child of the local priest, you'd be expected to initiate ASAP). Warriors would also initiate young as a virtual necessity.

I'd think, being part of a culture that is centred around gods, some level of Worship <X> and Cult Lore would be appropriate, and some of the other skills as well... Your skill selection is more directed towards the cult you're a Lay Member of.

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Really depends on if you want new adult or new cult initiate. If you want the latter, then yes sacrifice first point of POW, get your first Rune point, and select a Rune spell.

Yes I want both, sorry about the confusion.

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Commonly at marriage, one would imagine? I don’t believe most Orlanthi young men could manage a household anyway. And marriage is unlikely to happen for men before their twenties, because it takes resources (possibly it’s different for nobles).

Of course, if you become a housecarl or something, then you move out from your family anyway. Same thing if you end up in a proper military unit.

Yeah that makes sense. I suppose that if you're meant to become a weaponthane, an assistant shaman, or even an apprentice <whatever>, it's a lot easier because you probably move to your assigned longhouse (barracks or chieftain/inner-ring household for a solider, or the household of your patron in other cases).

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

You could make a case for getting something like an initial 5% in Cult Lore as a lay member. But largely you won't get that or Worship until you initiate.

Now that we've cleared up the confusion, I also realized I forgot to mention that I skip the additional +20%/+15% to cult skills of your choosing (RQG p73). This means the characters only get half the cult skills (including lore/worship/meditate), which aims to represent what you learned in the first few months before and after you became an Initiate, but without having had time to "deep dive" into any particular skill yet.

So far, the character sheets I'm getting with this method seem playable, but I'll report back after I've tried them out!

[Joerg]

 

10 hours ago, lordabdul said:

When does a kid effectively leave their parents' home and builds their own household?

 When they marry into a different clan? No, they will usually marry into an existing stead, and not normally to the steadmistress or steadholder (although that's a possibility).

When they attract a bride or groom from another clan? Neither. They will probably stick out on the bloodline stead or one of its branches as one of several couples that uphold this (branch of the) bloodline.

I tried to illustrate this with my sample Elmali steads. Basically, the new wife (or new Esrolian husband) moves into the dragon's cave with all the in-laws in the house.

Most steads will be led by people older than 35, more likely in the 55 year old age group. They will be supported by their siblings and their kids, nieces and nephews. There may be a generation of retired elders or two above the steadholders.

The race for the next steadholder will be decided by which husband-wife team gains the most reputation, the best farming skill, and the best herding skill, and who is most favored by the rest of the stead. This means that adventurers aren't that likely to inherit the farm, as they tend to be strong only on the reputation side.

So, what are your options if you and your marriage partner didn't win the race for steadholder, or if you decide to drop out of the race early?

You can move into one of the cottar houses on the stead (while retaining your carl status) and do your speciality. You can remain the stead's lead herder and rise to the leadership of the clan's herders, or perhaps even the tribal herders, making the stead more or less your winter quarters while you "rule" over the transhumant pastures from the summer cottage there. While many herders are male or tomboys, there will be a certain contingent of cheese-makers, animal healers and fertility god-talkers with them, and there will be children introduced into the herders' life and tasked with overseeing the sheep or possibly some pigs or even geese. There may be a few toddlers being breast-fed, too.

You may be asked to move with your marriage partner and your offspring to support an ailing stead (as heir-apparent). Usually someone of your bloodline, although likely a more distant branch.

You can walk the path of glory and work for a prestigious thane, priest, the chieftain, or even the king, and move in with this notable. As a warrior, a scribe, a magician (god-talker, rune lord, rune priest). That means you move into or adjacent to that notable's hall, travel around with that notable if that notable's position requires a life on the road. And that notable may appoint you to become a thane, an overseer of some asset.

You can take a position in the clan or tribal temple of your (or your marriage partner's) cult, and manage some holding of that temple. Does that make you a tenant? Yes. Does that make you semi-free? Not if you (or your marriage partner) is high enough in the temple hierarchy. Many thane positions are tenant positions at the same time, holdings tied to an office rather than to inheritance.

You can move into the city of your tribal confederation (if you don't have the bad luck to be Colymar or Lismelder), or to Boldhome, or to Nochet.

You might be invited to become a thane over some backwater, say Gringlestead or some hidden valley, or your glorious leader needs an overseer for some newly acquired territory (say in the Big Rubble).

 

Just you, your marriage partner, and any kids resulting from that marriage? You want to live as a tenant?

Edited December 30, 2019 by Joerg
added link to the Elmali Stead thread

[Lordabdul]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I tried to illustrate this with my sample Elmali steads.

Yeah I should go back and check that thread in more detail.

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Most steads will be led by people older than 35, more likely in the 55 year old age group. They will be supported by their siblings and their kids, nieces and nephews. There may be a generation of retired elders or two above the steadholders.

How old do you consider elders to be? I thought "elder" was anybody above 45 or 50 years old. It sounds like retirement is awfully late in your Glorantha?

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

You may be asked to move with your marriage partner and your offspring to support an ailing stead (as heir-apparent).

That's what I mainly had in mind, yeah, but all your other explanations make sense, thanks.

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

As a warrior, a scribe, a magician (god-talker, rune lord, rune priest). That means you move into or adjacent to that notable's hall, travel around with that notable if that notable's position requires a life on the road. And that notable may appoint you to become a thane, an overseer of some asset.

Yeah that's effectively the character arc I'm looking for here, where the PCs are growing and moving from helping out around their households, up to staying with some thanes or local temple or even the chieftain him/herself, and then becoming thanes/priests themselves. I think that path is fairly clear in my head when it comes to obvious "assistant" types, but less so for roles that involve having your own property or other assigned property, like farm land.

Thanks!

[Joerg]

Just now, lordabdul said:

Yeah I should go back and check that thread in more detail.

How old do you consider elders to be? I thought "elder" was anybody above 45 or 50 years old. It sounds like retirement is awfully late in your Glorantha?

Elder doesn't necessarily mean "retired".

I am aware that people over 40 years are above the life expectancy, but as much of this is decided whether you survive adolescence, it isn't unusual to become that old.

For women, the menopause is what suggests they move away from Ernalda and into Asrelia, as they cannot become pregnant in order to perform certain magics any more. But then, we know from individuals like Queen Bruvala that popping out children almost annually can keep a woman in the Ernalda business way past normal retirement age. I did mention that biological problem in my Elmali samples...

As long as the steadmaster has no trouble guiding the plow (at least for the first day of plowing in the season) and the steadmistress manages to remain a weaver rather than a spinster, there is no real reason to retire. It's not like you will retire to a life of leisure, anyway. Unless you regard sessions of that council of elders as a relaxed drinking and eating outing.

 

Just now, lordabdul said:

Yeah that's effectively the character arc I'm looking for here, where the PCs are growing and moving from helping out around their households, up to staying with some thanes or local temple or even the chieftain him/herself, and then becoming thanes/priests themselves. I think that path is fairly clear in my head when it comes to obvious "assistant" types, but less so for roles that involve having your own property or other assigned property, like farm land.

In a rural game, everybody will be made responsible for a certain portion of the primary production. Sea Season and Earth Season are bad times to ask for a repair job on your gear, as even the crafters and other specialists will be on the fields or in the gardens or driving back the cattle. (Getting the cattle moving into their transhumant pastures may involve significantly more people than keeping watch over them.)

Plowing may start as soon as frost and snow cover allow it, so possibly already in late Storm Season. And then there is late plowing, either to prepare a fallow time, or (probably) to sow winter grain late in Earth Season. So, plenty times when even the white collar "assistant types" are going to get mud on their boots.

City life may be different, although Clearwine is enough of a rural place that most of its population will be in the fields or involved with distant pasture. Speciality farming like apple orchards or vinyards have slightly different cycles of activity, too, but then the Adventure Book suggests that the apple orchards are completely managed by tenants, with the thane only overseeing the process.

(Are these standard apples, or pomegranates? Given the climate, the latter might be a possibility.)

 

The attachment to a notable may be year round, or it may be seasonal - i.e. only out of the agricultural seasons you are expected to attend the retinue/temple while lending a hand at the family stead the rest of the time. And with part-time attendance there is the question whether the marriage partners move over as a team, or whether the marriage partner stays at home with the kids.

When moving over, the question is which kids to take along. Breast-fed infants require a reliable wetnurse to give away completely, but other age groups might be less welcome at the notable's hall, unless one is sufficiently favored that one's kids are allowed to grow up with the kids of that notable's household.

Such an upbringing variant is missing in character generation, btw. A nifty tool to generate childhood friends and rivals as plot hooks or relationship anchors. Saronil and Palashee likely were such childhood buddies at Shaker's Temple (where Saronil likely also met his wives).

[Joerg]

When does your average Orlanthi marry?

It depends, I guess.

On status. A woman from a high status family might become the subject of a political marriage early on in her career, and political marriages usually come as "until death, exile or divorce may part you" contracts. On the other hand, the same high status bride may first undergo a career at the local temple or otherwise, delaying a long term marriage.

People associated to a temple may be called to participate in ritual marriages that (out of practicality) are combined with Year Marriage or Bed Marriage status. That's how Harmast Barefoot earned his reputation among the Hendriki and even the Esrolians, despite his tenant status. As he was (mostly) happily married, his other flings which resulted in dozens of offspring were bed-marriages. We know about a dozen of his sons by name, and those are only the ones that stepped forth as the Gbaji Wars culminated. There may have been way more sons, and as many daughters. (In other words, there is a good chance that a southern Orlanthi is descended from Harmast Barefoot.) I think Harmast is barely out of his teens at the start of Ten Women Well Loved (the novel by Greg that could be published, at least as a fragment), but then he needs to marry into the Hendriki tribe to find a place to belong after Exilestead was destroyed.

But if you are playing an ordinary Orlanthi, there is the option that your character has recently married into the clan, and if you are playing a female character, those chances are significantly higher. (I would have included one of these cases in the sample characters, but I guess Vasana and friends were taken from Jeff's playtest party again.)

Considerations like these beg the question how many of the adults of a normal clan are within a marriage at any given time, and how many are in a permanent marriage? In my Elmali example there is no case of a year marriage, so that's a point for my to-do list.

 

Those Orlanth-worshiping Varmandi female herders (Adventure Book p.93-95) are in all likelihood unmarried at the moment, although they may have had a year marriage or two under their belts. Jareena, the older one, may have a child or two, not necessarily in the Varmandi clan.

The encounter with the adventurers' party may add to the number of children... pastoral duty in Dark Season is a lonely job, so these herders may be starved for some attention beyond buddy spooning. "Auf der Alm, da gibt's koa Sünd"... (link is to a Bavarian Volkslied, to avoid any search result that requires a brown bag.)

Year marriages are a great outlet to satisfy parental wishes for grandchildren without eternal commitment, even though half of them may end up being raised in another clan. They are also a good way to allow some romantic weddings, with the cynical expectation that living the married life may end the romance sooner rather than later. A year couple may part as friends, or even as friends with benefits as long as no other commitments have been made.

The downside of a year marriage is the need to define visiting rights and what happens when the parent that remains in the birth clan dies.

But then, a marriage (other than taking a bed-husband) isn't required for a woman to get pregnant and add another child to the gaggle of underage inhabitants of the stead.

A woman unproven as a mother may be quite hard to "sell" to another clan as a permanent wife (regardless of locality). An infertile (or insufficiently plumbed, like female) husband is no barrier for a fertile marriage, after all - there are enough cult rites the wife can volunteer for.

(And if the wife already had her firstborn, you are immune from the Rumpelstiltskin threat?)

[Shiningbrow]

Q: some cults only allow marriage to other cultists... Is that intended for all marriage types?

[Joerg]

22 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Q: some cults only allow marriage to other cultists... Is that intended for all marriage types?

Yes, for all marriages with a certain formality.

One question that needs to be answered here is "what makes a person a cultist"?

The Lhankor Mhy proviso only to marry another worshiper of Lhankor Mhy basically is a demand that the marriage partner can read (and possibly write). Last time I looked, Fleeter Nemm was not an initiate of LM, though happily married to Broosta, an initiate of LM. As a priest of Pavis, he is certainly literate.

The "must only marry an earth cultist" scheme that made Vega Goldbreath the former wife of her sister Penta's husband on the other hand is using the much harsher definition that your Light Son's marriage partner needs to be an initiate of Earth.

There is sex and even parenthood outside of marriage, but marriage brings quite a few advantages, even temporary marriage, which is why most people bother.

But then there are steady (and sexual) partnerships outside of marriage. Especially like Sacred Brotherhood among warriors. As no offspring is likely to come of such relationships (usually, but not even biological gender - male, neuter - can be a safeguard against pregnancy if sufficient ambient fertility is present during the act), there is much less third party oversight of this. Sharing bed and (war band) shield wall with a warrior from a feuding clan will still be frowned upon and might lead to its own variant of Romeo and Juliet...

Edited January 1, 2020 by Joerg

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

usually, but not even biological sex can be a safeguard against pregnancy if sufficient ambient fertility is present during the act

You might want to edit that...

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

You might want to edit that...

Thanks, did so, but I really mean "sex" rather than "gender", as gender appears to be defined meaning behavior whereas sex means plumbing.

[Shiningbrow]

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Thanks, did so, but I really mean "sex" rather than "gender", as gender appears to be defined meaning behavior whereas sex means plumbing.

If you didn't, then it may be confusing, as sex (the act) often results in pregnancy 😋