Who were the Losk-Alim?

[M Helsdon]

Looking through the forum, there are a few references to a bull-riding people (related to the Tawari?) called the Losk-Alim, from which the name Loskalm is derived.

However, I can find no references to these people (apparently allied with Talor) in any available source.

Can anyone tell me anything of them?

[Lordabdul]

Since only @scott-martin ever used that term, you might want to ask him... but judging from the additional fact that this term doesn't exist in any of the HQ/RQ/etc PDFs, I'm gonna assume this is part of Scott's own (varying) Gloranthan history.

Edited March 13, 2020 by lordabdul

[Sir_Godspeed]

Didn't some of the old-timers draw it from the really archaic western sources, like the Arkatsaga or something?

[scott-martin]

"Varying" is such a kindness. I first encountered the Losk-alim in an archaic Deep Source that Greg called The Book of Gbaji and of course it blew my mind for the obvious etymological / toponymic reasons. Here's a teaser for those who rightfully suspect my ability to perpetrate a hoax:

As with everything regarding pre-Runequest Fronela, detail is acutely scarce, somewhere between what I'd call provisional and fragmentary. I think I've babbled on here with everything I've found out. They might also figure in one of the many states of Arkatsaga but I doubt it since the Losk-alim are only important in the north where Arkat doesn't go. We've had war in the market this week so I am too tired to walk across the house and see. But realistically after a search you know what I do right now, maybe another collector will pipe up.

[M Helsdon]

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Since only @scott-martin ever used that term, you might want to ask him... but judging from the additional fact that this term doesn't exist in any of the HQ/RQ/etc PDFs, I'm gonna assume this is part of Scott's own (varying) Gloranthan history.

Well, it seems very ancient.

9 hours ago, scott-martin said:

"Varying" is such a kindness. I first encountered the Losk-alim in an archaic Deep Source that Greg called The Book of Gbaji and of course it blew my mind for the obvious etymological / toponymic reasons. Here's a teaser for those who rightfully suspect my ability to perpetrate a hoax:

As with everything regarding pre-Runequest Fronela, detail is acutely scarce, somewhere between what I'd call provisional and fragmentary. I think I've babbled on here with everything I've found out. They might also figure in one of the many states of Arkatsaga but I doubt it since the Losk-alim are only important in the north where Arkat doesn't go. We've had war in the market this week so I am too tired to walk across the house and see. But realistically after a search you know what I do right now, maybe another collector will pipe up.

Thank you for this.

I have decided to mention the Losk-Alim, though via an obscure text. Similar pretences are used in The Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass, where there's a fascinating snippet, but its canonicity is suspect.

[Sir_Godspeed]

If we work from the assumption that it was a particular tribe or tribal confederation of Tawari Bull People that were defeated/conquered/displaced by the Westerners, and whose name stuck to the surrounding landscape, then I don't think there's a lot there that threatens established canon. Seems pretty straightforward. They don't have to be the sole Bull People group displaced/assimilated either, just the one that happened to have their name stick. A further tentative assumption might be that they allied the whole Serpent shamans or what they are called in Fronela (I mix them up with their Ralian counterpart), and may or may not be the folks depicted on the Loskalmi frieze: 

(From Well of Daliath, also in the Guide, iirc.)

[M Helsdon]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

If we work from the assumption that it was a particular tribe or tribal confederation of Tawari Bull People that were defeated/conquered/displaced by the Westerners, and whose name stuck to the surrounding landscape, then I don't think there's a lot there that threatens established canon. Seems pretty straightforward. They don't have to be the sole Bull People group displaced/assimilated either, just the one that happened to have their name stick. A further tentative assumption might be that they allied the whole Serpent shamans or what they are called in Fronela (I mix them up with their Ralian counterpart), and may or may not be the folks depicted on the Loskalmi frieze: 

I am presently writing the A&EoDP sequel (which may never be finished) and have found it isn't difficult to find (make up) more about the major Hsunchen. In the case of bull and horse riders, there was an essay I cut from A&E, which with minor changes, fits very well. Reading the Guide, there are things that are very easy to expand upon. Most of the bull and horse-riders didn't go extinct, they became either Western dronari, or in greater numbers Orlanthi.

At the moment I have about three pages on the major Hsunchen, four or five on Brithos (about three specifically about the horali), about ten on Seshnela (about three pages on knights and War Societies each), and have started on Fronela (having about a page on Jonatela).

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I am presently writing the A&EoDP sequel (which may never be finished) and have found it isn't difficult to find (make up) more about the major Hsunchen. In the case of bull and horse riders, there was an essay I cut from A&E, which with minor changes, fits very well. Reading the Guide, there are things that are very easy to expand upon. Most of the bull and horse-riders didn't go extinct, they became either Western dronari, or in greater numbers Orlanthi.

 

That's my impression too. I believe there are specific mentions in the Guide of regions of Loskalm known for their bull ancestry or good cattle, so there's something to go off. 

The only minor niggle I'd say is that I think it's not entirely certain that the Tawari/Bull People were wholly "Hsunchen" in the way we think of them by the Third Age. This is something that's been discussed back and forth here a good bit, but my impression is that they were *both* animistic Bull Totem people *and* theistic Bull/Storm Folk. Descendants of groups where the line between Hsunchen and Storm Barbarians was a lot less defined than in Kerofinela. (Their shared Storm theism also might explain why they converted so easily to Orlanthism).

The reason for that is partly because the more easterly neighbors of the "Bull Belt" introduced theistic entities like Tawar and Bisos into Pelandan myths, and also that we find a similar animist-theistic mix with the Praxians, who are essentially "expanded" Bull People, as it were. Of course, it's possible that the theistic elements are innovations by these extremities while meeting with theistic groups, or that the Fronelan Tawari themselves innovated themselves to become purely animist, but this is a bit too finnicky for a book about armies and weapons. 

My main point is just to be a bit careful to over-generalize on the description of Dawn Age pre-Western Fronelan Bull People. 

On another note, the image guidelines for the artwork cited above also mentions explicitly that they are "mixed animist and theistic", although whether those "barbarians" actually are the bull people we're talking about is anyone's guess. 

Sorry if this is all irrelevant to your endeavor. I'm very much looking forward to how you end up envisioning the West, the sketches of Central Genertela were a joy to see.

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The only minor niggle I'd say is that I think it's not entirely certain that the Tawari/Bull People were wholly "Hsunchen" in the way we think of them by the Third Age. This is something that's been discussed back and forth here a good bit, but my impression is that they were *both* animistic Bull Totem people *and* theistic Bull/Storm Folk. Descendants of groups where the line between Hsunchen and Storm Barbarians was a lot less defined than in Kerofinela. (Their shared Storm theism also might explain why they converted so easily to Orlanthism).

That's my thought as well, and for the Horse People in Ralios, where a few lineages might have had Hsunchen-appearing capabilities, but the majority weren't Hsunchen. The Westerners classified all the indigenous peoples Hsunchen, much as they thought Elder Races they weren't familiar with as Krjalki. Both the Tawari and Enerali have footnotes about this.

At the moment I am trying to get material typed up, and will think about organisation later. The current format doesn't quite work because Seshnela is pretty much all one culture (split between noble knights and War Societies), and Brithos is a single culture, whereas Fronela and Ralios are more complicated, so the subsection leveling isn't the same - something I need to resolve. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by M Helsdon

[g33k]

Random idea that just occured to me:  might a Horse Hsunchen have some form (presumably via Rune magic, if it follows the cues in the RQG core book) that's essentially indistinguishable from a centaur?

And Bull Hsunchen thus to a Minotaur?

Edited March 14, 2020 by g33k

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Random idea that just occured to me:  might a Horse Hsunchen have some form (presumably via Rune magic, if it follows the cues in the RQG core book) that's essentially indistinguishable from a centaur?

I suspect not, as that's only a partial transformation.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

And Bull Hsunchen thus to a Minotaur?

The Tawari and other bull-riders don't seem to have been Hsunchen, even if that's how the Akemites classified them. 

Urox himself fathered the first bull-headed minotaur upon a daughter of Uleria, or perhaps upon Velhara or Orunatawara (a cow goddess), or even Eiritha, as myths vary. And Urox/Bisos was a descendant of Tawar.

One thing that has struck me in reading up on events in the First Age is that it would be a really interesting game setting, far more so than, perhaps, the Second Age. More magical, and more mysterious, until things go bad with the birth of Nysalor.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

I suspect not, as that's only a partial transformation...

I wasn't happy to see it, but that is the way Yinkin & Odayla Rune Magic seems to do it in RQG...