Colymar trade routes

[Stephen L]

Apologies, if I failed my search and started a new topic unnecessarily, but…

Looking at the map for the Colymar lands has given me an inkling for a campaign, and I’d like to see if it makes sense or is it all ill-considered madness.

The major trade routes in the area seem to be from Jonstown to Runegate, across the wilds to Tarsh (dangerous and controlled by Dragonewt friendly Rungate trade cartel).  Also, Wilmskirk to Duckpoint and then South to Esrolia or West to Grazelands (dangerous and controlled by Druluz Undead hating cartels).

And Clearwine seems awfully isolated from any of these.  There isn’t even an obvious trade path to Runegate, and the routes to Boldhome or Wilmskirk are tortuous.

Very curious.

Of course, it could all be an oversight, that the oldest continuous major human settlement in Dragon Pass having no easy trade routes, that would be madness.

Except that I seem to remember that the king of the Colymar refused Sartar’s idea of a city in Colymar lands.  So perhaps some sort of mythic isolation.  And there being no road between Runegate and Clearwine, can only mean that the Taraling clans in the north have little truck with Ernaldoring clans in the south (and vice versa), maybe a mythic divide between the Colymar tribes.

And the campaign hook: what is Sora Goodseller doing in this trade backwater?  The main driver of this rambling post, is that the Player Characters have a quite strong affinity with Sora out of any of the NPCs in Clearwine, so I'm trying to understand her, and I'm struggling!

Maybe she has a plan to break Clearwine’s mythic isolation.  A trade route to Wilmskirk – perhaps a sleeping giant in the hills who’s been wounded, so he can’t move (poisoned barb in the foot), and the party are hired to help her wake and cure him, making passage across the hills possible again? 

Wharves on the stream by Clearwine for trade southwards?  I don’t know how navigable the stream would be.  Possibly not, as it’s probably called the stream for a reason, and would Sartar’s bridge at Quackford be passable.  But a water theme would be good for a party with a Duck in it's roll call.

But a road north up Nymie Vale to Runegate (safer than the Lismelder route close to Upland Marsh) and breaking into the Runegate/Dragonnewt trade cartel, Sora would definitely need the adventurers help in that.  Though going to Apple Lane would open up a quick route between Duckford and Jonstown, maybe that's better.

Does it hold water, or have I misunderstood the trade routes for this part of Dragon pass?  Are their pointers to said routes?  Does all trade between the Lunar Empire and Esrolia go through the Grazelands, or is Tarsh, Dragonewt Wilds, Runegate, Quackford a viable route?  How dangerous is the Lismelder route between Quackford and Runegate?  Would opening up Colymar route impact on some aspect of the Colymar I’ve not considered – perhaps the secrets of the Clearwine Earth Temple or Tarndisis grove jealously guarded?  Most importantly, what are Sora Goodseller's motivations?  If she's just interested in opening up Colymar produce to Esrolia, then Clearwine to Duckpoint is an adequate trade route.

Thanks for any help.

Stephen.

 

[Joerg]

Clearwine is pretty much a cul-de-sac connected to the royal highway from Duck Point to Wilmskirk. North of it lie the Annmagarn lands and the Colymar Wilds which are meant to remain outside of civilization and urban culture - that's an ancient and powerful pact of this weirdo tribe. There  a less direct route through the Antorling clan lands, which also has a secondary route through the Quivin Mountains towards Boldhome.

Clearwine produces the beverage that gave it its commonly used name. That's its main claim to economic fame, as most of the agricultural production of the clans goes into their own needs, with only some surplus funneled off to the authorities. You don't really want to export grain by road, although you do deliver some by road to the nearest cities. Other than their own major settlements, in case of the southern Colymar lands, that would be Wilmskirk, in case of the northern Colymar lands this would be Jonstown, either able to transship goods to the capital.

Clearwine might have a few crafters of local renown, but those would be overshadowed by the guilds in Wilmskirk and Boldhome.

The main source of Colymar wealth is the size of the tribe, and its military and magical power.

 

So what could be Sora's motivation? Other than respecting Leika as a leader in the past decade in Broyan's service.

The Colymar are affluent, which means that their queen will be generous to her retainers. An Issaries trader is not just a simple pusher of wares, she is also a herald and diplomat, and handling wealth in connection to weregeld and political donations, both incoming and outgoing. This sort of trade on behalf of the most powerful tribal queen in the country is a source of high prestige, and a good portion of wealth trickling down to the honest merchant handling this.

Sora is profiting from her position among Leika's followers, and already did profit before Leika was re-installed as queen of her tribe.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

The major trade routes in the area seem to be from Jonstown to Runegate, across the wilds to Tarsh (dangerous and controlled by Dragonewt friendly Rungate trade cartel).  Also, Wilmskirk to Duckpoint and then South to Esrolia or West to Grazelands (dangerous and controlled by Druluz Undead hating cartels).

If you think about the major trade centers (i.e. Nochet/Esrolia in the south and Furthest/Tarsh in the north, with the latter as the point of entry to the Lunar Empire), then you can see two major trade routes between, which I think Jeff noted in another thread.

The first is the "river" route: Upriver from Nochet along the Lyksos/Creek-Stream Rivers. That brings you to Centaur Ford in Beast Valley where you can either: 1) take the Dragon Pass trail leading past Shaker's Temple, Bagnot, Goldedge, and then Furthest; 2) cut west into Grazelands leading to Rich Post, Queen's Post, North Post, and Dunstop before using the Oslir River; 3) continue on to Duck Point, then take the Greydog Trail to Runegate, and then either the very rough trails up towards Bagnot or the road to Jonstown and good roads to Alda-Chur, Slavewall, and then Furthest; or 4) continue on to Duck Point and follow the Royal Road to Boldhome, Jonstown, Alda-Chur, Slavewall, and Furthest.

The second is the "Heortland" route: Across the Mirrorsea from Nochet to Karse. From Karse take the King's Road and Royal Roads to Wilmskirk, then follow the Royal Road to Boldhome, Jonstown, Alda-Chur, Slavewall, and Furthest.

The Royal Roads of Sartar are far superior to any others, and the only ones that you can reasonably use wagons along. For the other trails you'll need mules and porters.

The Colymar profit from control of Quackford where the stone bridge crosses the Stream. Clearwine is definitely a cul-de-sac as Joerg notes, but it's got a good export.

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

There isn’t even an obvious trade path to Runegate

Just trails up to Swan/Apple Lane.

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

the routes to Boldhome or Wilmskirk are tortuous

They are longer by distance, but very, very good roads. Think Roman Roads - armies, wagon trains, etc. can all move readily along.

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

what is Sora Goodseller doing in this trade backwater?

Monopolizing the trade in clearwine. There's also wool from the sheep on the Starfire Ridges.

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

And there being no road between Runegate and Clearwine, can only mean that the Taraling clans in the north have little truck with Ernaldoring clans in the south (and vice versa), maybe a mythic divide between the Colymar tribes.

The original 5 clans all centered on Clearwine. The Hiording petitioned to join for help against the Varmandi, which led to the addition of clans north of the Colymar Wilds. Then the 3 Hyaloring clans joined after a local war.  Finally, they added the Arfritha Vale clans (though two currently are part of the Malani tribe).

But, yes, there is definitely a rivalry between Ernaldoring and Taraling. But that's why the Earth priestesses of Clearwine encourage marriage between the two to cement the ties (and the last few kings have been Taraling).

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

But a road north up Nymie Vale to Runegate (safer than the Lismelder route close to Upland Marsh) and breaking into the Runegate/Dragonnewt trade cartel, Sora would definitely need the adventurers help in that.  Though going to Apple Lane would open up a quick route between Duckford and Jonstown, maybe that's better.

There are definitely trails up the Nymie Vale to Swan/Apple Lane (they go past Asborn's Stead). But the agreement between Colymar and Tarndisi was to keep the Colymar Wilds wild - no cities there, no "civilization", no cultivation.  For an ambitious merchant, how do you convince the tribe to break that agreement?

You'll want to think about what do the Colymar even get out of it the relationship with the wild.  Those are the debates that will shake the core of the tribe and clans. The Black Spear clan are hunters who can use the wild - they will oppose. The Orlmarth hate the Greydogs, they might encourage the plan (or they might fear Tarndisi's wrath and oppose).

Does Tarndisi keep the Black Growler/Twilight Hound at bay? Does she keep the spirit world from spilling over into the mundane world (the worlds are close there)? Will Tarndisi draw upon the dragonewts for aid?

[Stephen L]

Many thanks both.  All very useful stuff.  The Issaries point of view is fairly new to our roleplaying milieu, so this really help getting the ideas going.

Amusingly we've just started with the kids at roleplaying, something we haven't done for years - and their approach is somewhat more nuanced than ours ever was...  The very first thing was we tried the Broken Tower Quick Start to see how they took to it, and, as it got to the climax, there was a little voice saying, "don't hit the stone woman mummy, let find out what it wants."  As mummy holds back on her swing, pretending she was just getting ready...

Stephen.

[dumuzid]

My group ran into a bit of a snag in these matters because I was playing an Esrolian Argan Argar dark troll and Sora, well, Yelmalio commanded her to be prejudiced towards Darkness beings at some point.  It was a fun little reversal in-game.  My first in-character impulse, on the game starting, was to amble over to the Issaries presence in Clearwine and make my introductions since there was no obvious Argan Argar presence in town--thankfully my character noted the Yelmalio accoutrements at her place before making the attempt.

As a result, Sora's become one of the minor villains of the campaign.  She's the player-characters most consistent political opponent among the Colymar, and her Yelmalian geas ensures she'll remain such no matter how good a friend to the Colymar my troll proves himself to be.  My troll has been pretty successful at representing his essentially mercantile clan to other parties in Dragon Pass, which has ended up dovetailing with this point:

5 hours ago, Stephen L said:

Also, Wilmskirk to Duckpoint and then South to Esrolia or West to Grazelands (dangerous and controlled by Druluz Undead hating cartels).

There's a potential, unrealized trade route here as you note, running from Duck Point across the Creak Stream River, Beast Valley, the Feyghost Wood and the Orolmarn Hills, finally passing the Smoking Ruin to reach Hiaa's Valley and Grazelander country.  My Argan Argari managed friendly interactions with the beastfolk and traversed the path of the potential trade route a few times on different excursions from Clearwine.  Events of the campaign in 1626 culminated in a Unity Battle against the evil in the Smoking Ruins that ended the place's several curses, opening it for settlement for the first time in centuries.  My Argan Argari proved himself a good enough friend to the people of Beast Valley that they now permit his clan to run insect caravans across their territory headed for Sartar or the Grazelands--his mercantile family from the Blackwell north of the Shadow Plateau accounts for a greater and greater share of the north-south overland traffic between Dragon Pass and Kethaela, and now holds a monopoly on the new east-west route with the support of Duck Point.  Sora acted to sabotage this budding relationship between the Shadow Plateau trolls and Colymar by hiring Tarshites at loose ends to attack the bug caravans, hurting people and destroying property but not killing anyone.  We put a stop to that (a Zorak Zorani ate one of the bandits, the only casualty of the affair) and took her to court over it.  The biggest selling point for bug caravans over human-style commercial transport is that they don't really need or use roads, which has allowed the new trade relations to take shape without any great infrastructure projects to back them up.  Traveling relatively lightly over the land has helped to keep the beastfolk happy with the arrangement as well.

[jajagappa]

30 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

As a result, Sora's become one of the minor villains of the campaign.

Well, that's a different outcome!

I've actually got two Sora's in my games:  Sora Goodseller (the garrulous trader from SKoH with the character sheet who's a member of the Orlmarth clan); and Sora Sweet-voiced (also out of SKoH, but from a brief note on p.20: Sora Sweetvoiced is a Trader who wanders from clan-to-clan, trading trinkets and stories).  The former is the hardy merchant out delivering goods down to Karse, or off to Boldhome or Jonstown, etc., and is a source of rumors, gossip, and aid (and hates the Etyries merchant who is trying to make in-roads into the Colymar tribe).  The latter is a small time peddler who brings odds and ends around amidst the clans.

But in my HQG game, we've also got a PC merchant who was strong in the Darkness rune and "Knows the Dark Trails". He got's contacts with the Sazdorf trolls, the Torkani, and can find the secret trails and roads the trolls use.

[Stephen L]

4 hours ago, dumuzid said:

There's a potential, unrealized trade route here as you note, running from Duck Point across the Creak Stream River, Beast Valley, the Feyghost Wood and the Orolmarn Hills, finally passing the Smoking Ruin to reach Hiaa's Valley and Grazelander country

I had wondered about getting the Smoking ruins scenario - there did seem an obvious tie in with the direction the campaign might take.

But thanks again all, it's been very helpful turning some ill-considered inklings into some ideas on a far more solid basis.

Stephen.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Stephen L said:

But thanks again all, it's been very helpful turning some ill-considered inklings into some ideas on a far more solid basis.

Something to keep in mind about why Clearwine and the Colymar may be important for trade is that it produces "clear" wine. What better drink/offering for the Gods of the Winds! Which means all the Orlanth temples, and by extension all the Orlanthi tribes/clans want some (kind of like the Lunars wanting crimson dyes), not just in Sartar but down through Heortland, and at least parts of Esrolia.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Stephen L said:

... But thanks again all, it's been very helpful turning some ill-considered inklings into some ideas on a far more solid basis.

Yeah.

The Tribe hereabouts is usually pretty good that way!

(Always assuming the question doesn't spiral down into one of the Deep Lore rabbit-holes...)

[Stephen L]

On 3/22/2020 at 12:24 PM, jajagappa said:

The first is the "river" route: Upriver from Nochet along the Lyksos/Creek-Stream Rivers. That brings you to Centaur Ford in Beast Valley where you can either: 1) take the Dragon Pass trail leading past Shaker's Temple, Bagnot, Goldedge, and then Furthest; 2) cut west into Grazelands leading to Rich Post, Queen's Post, North Post, and Dunstop before using the Oslir River; 3)

From the map, the most direct Esrolia / Lunar Tarsh  trade route is Direct from Notchet to Rich post, without detouring up the Creek Stream and Beast Valley. (Smoking Ruin does seem enticingly placed for some such route, I'm just going to have to buy that when it's out in paper).  Though perhaps a navigable Creek-Stream might make the detour worth it, though there are marshes round Styx Gtotto, how dangerous are those?

However, back to the Colymar...

On 3/22/2020 at 12:24 PM, jajagappa said:

They are longer by distance, but very, very good roads. Think Roman Roads - armies, wagon trains, etc. can all move readily along.

Just measuring up the distances (it’s taken me this long to get a ruler, real life, huh).

The road from Wilmskirk to Quackford, might be Royal, but it’s still 50km, in not very much the right direction.  That’s a full day’s travel, even by horse.

Then from Quackford to Clearwine that’s another 30km, but at best that’s a trade path.  That path doesn’t appear in full dragon pass map that’s bundled with the GM’s screen pack, which may (or may not) indicate that it’s not major.

That’s 2 days' travel by horse.

From Clearwine to Wilmskirk is 26km, as a crow flies.  Perhaps the terrain is rough enough to make a direct route unappealing (along the side of Seven Falls – there are rapids there after all, which might indicate it’s not easy going), but even swinging north, by Farvine and the northern end of Kjartan’s lake, to follow Chorm’s river is still 40km.  That there’re paths to Farvine and also down Chorm’s river might mean the hills there are not too hard going.  If there were a decent road, that would be a day’s travel all in all.

So, I’m leaning towards the Colymar being very isolationist, otherwise the roads would be there.  I love the idea the Colymar have pacts with the wildlands, and preserve the Colymar wilds, I’m stealing that.

And Sora primarily focus for being the GoldenTongue for Leika, that’s an aspect I missed and like very much.  But, I still see her brain ticking away, opening the markets for Colymar goods, maybe Clear Wine in Wilmskirk, and beyond to Boldhome, but, given her background her vision probably is a market back in Esrolia (rafts of wine barrels down the Creek-Stream).  And, probably the problem isn't really the roads.  The lack of roads indicates a mind set, and it's the opposition that her sacrilegious ideas that's the source for the adventures... 

Thanks again,

Stephen

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

I love the idea the Colymar have pacts with the wildlands, and preserve the Colymar wilds, I’m stealing that.

It's right in SKoH p.282 "When the Colymar came to the Starfire Ridges, they made a pact with the ancient spirit of the grove. Neither axe nor fire would be found under the canopy; gods would not be called, nor sacrifices made. In return, the grove would warn the Colymar of strangers and provide [her] blessings to those who could gain them."

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

So, I’m leaning towards the Colymar being very isolationist, otherwise the roads would be there.

And it's one reason there's a strong tension between the city confederations (Jonstown, Wilmskirk) with the Colymar. 

4 hours ago, Stephen L said:

(rafts of wine barrels down the Creek-Stream)

Depending on the map, I think there should be some rapids along the "New River" between New Crystal City and Valadon/Willford. (That may have changed with Jeff's latest mapping work though). Might create delays for portage, or require extra magic (undines) to move boats along (sort of like locks without the need for physical locks). But no reason not to float rafts of barrels or amphorae downstream - it's the upriver return that's more challenging.