Israeldor Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 I am running a fantasy game that includes the big gold books sorcery rules. One thing that is a bit unclear to me is what the benefits of binding a demon into an item. It seems like the book is implying the item gains some characteristics necessary to run their powers. Extrapolating from that does that mean the item gets the demon's special abilities and if so how should you determine that (or is it you make unique demons. Meaning every item will be unique)? Also do sorcerers benefit in mp from the demon's POW? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiorgan Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1. The demon can manifest instantly popping up from the item. You don't need to summon it again. 2. Certain powers / abilities of the demon can be used from the item itself, without manifesting the demon. You find advanced demon rules with lots of powers in these books: Advanced Sorcery for Magic World, but 100% compatible with the Big Gold Book sorcery rules : https://www.chaosium.com/advanced-sorcery/ Chronicles of Future Earth for BRP: https://www.amazon.it/Chronicles-Future-Earth-Setting-Roleplaying/dp/1568823061 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugen Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 The Sorcery rules from the BRP were originally published in Elric!, which had rules for creating demons. Basically, you spent magic points when summoning a demon to give him characteristics, or demon powers. Demon Armor, Demon Shield and Demon Weapon were part of those powers, and defined the rules for item-bound demons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israeldor Posted April 15, 2020 Author Share Posted April 15, 2020 Thanks for the speedy responses everyone! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiorgan Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 On 4/13/2020 at 10:23 PM, Mugen said: The Sorcery rules from the BRP were originally published in Elric!, which had rules for creating demons. Basically, you spent magic points when summoning a demon to give him characteristics, or demon powers. Demon Armor, Demon Shield and Demon Weapon were part of those powers, and defined the rules for item-bound demons. Yes, that's the origin. You can find the original rules in Elric! or Stormbringer 5th edition. However, they are OOP. The best source currently available is Advanced Sorcery, which can be bought from Chaosium and is heavily discounted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugen Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 4 hours ago, smiorgan said: Yes, that's the origin. You can find the original rules in Elric! or Stormbringer 5th edition. However, they are OOP. The best source currently available is Advanced Sorcery, which can be bought from Chaosium and is heavily discounted. Which raises another question. Does summoning a demon really cost only 1 MP (plus 1 or 3 POW if you bind it) in the Big Gold Book rules ? That seems very low, especially when compared to Elric! rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiorgan Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Mugen said: Which raises another question. Does summoning a demon really cost only 1 MP (plus 1 or 3 POW if you bind it) in the Big Gold Book rules ? That seems very low, especially when compared to Elric! rules. Yes, that's kind of a bug in the BGB or maybe not. In Elric! there's the cost of the spell (1 MP) and then the cost of the demon powers, which is normally well above 10 MP. In my humble opinion in Elric! the MP cost of demons and elementals is way too high and discourages player characters from taking the risks. Also the lure of power is not so strong given that they can still cast very reliable sorcery spells. The Stormbringer 4e rules work better for a summoning-centered game of sorcerers risking their souls. Also Mongoose Elric of Melniboné rules nail demons and elementals pretty well. If I were to use the Elric! rules now I would do the following: 1- Scrap completely the insane cost of summoning elementals (28 MP for the "minimum elementals that can be summoned"). Substitute that with a 3 sizes system as in RQ. 2- Allow more unhealthy ways for sorcerers to accumulate MPs for demon summoning to pave their way to madness and their eventual demise. Edited April 15, 2020 by smiorgan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Dupont Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 About (2): Sorcery has Brazier of Power! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinabrett Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 19 minutes ago, smiorgan said: 2- Allow more unhealthy ways for sorcerers to accumulate MPs for demon summoning to pave their way to madness and their eventual demise. Don't leave us hanging @smiorgan! Give us some details! 😀 The Stormbringer Demon Magic supplement had rules for sanity, where summoning a demon would force a SAN roll and (slowly) lead to madness. I've always thought the "1 permanent POW for temporary binding, or 3 permanent POW for permanent binding" was a bit steep (as it could leave the sorcerer unable to cast magic). Some of the ideas I have around this are a little too "out there" to go into on a friendly forum. Colin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsanford Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 2 hours ago, colinabrett said: Don't leave us hanging @smiorgan! Give us some details! 😀 The Stormbringer Demon Magic supplement had rules for sanity, where summoning a demon would force a SAN roll and (slowly) lead to madness. I've always thought the "1 permanent POW for temporary binding, or 3 permanent POW for permanent binding" was a bit steep (as it could leave the sorcerer unable to cast magic). Some of the ideas I have around this are a little too "out there" to go into on a friendly forum. Colin I want the Demon Magic book so bad but a good copy goes for more than $100 these days. I understand there is a real kick butt scenario in there called the velvet circle. 1 Quote Check out our homebrew rules for freeform magic in BRP -> No reason for Ars Magica players to have all the fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugen Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 10 hours ago, smiorgan said: Also Mongoose Elric of Melniboné rules nail demons and elementals pretty well. Yes, they're my favourite rules for demons and elementals summoning, and my first option for a Young Kingdoms BRP(-ish) game. I know SB 4th summoning rules have a very good reputation. But when that edition was released in French it was as an expensive boxed set, and at that time I didn't want to spend money just for magic rules. I have never been a fan of Elric!, to be honest. I never liked its minor magic spells, its combat system, the fact skills were completely divorced from characteristics or the fact summoning was based on a Luck roll, with no skill involved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiorgan Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 9 hours ago, colinabrett said: Don't leave us hanging @smiorgan! Give us some details! 😀 The obvious suspect is grisly sacrifice and consequent POW tapping "Blood and souls for Arioch!". It does not have to be ritual, it could occur during combat with the proper invocations. Of course this will ramp up your Chaos allegiance. Another option is rolling your Chaos allegiance and, if succesful, obtain 1/2 of your allegiance points as extra magic points, for the sole purpose of summoning demons (the Lords of Chaos won't give you MP for puny and safe spells). There are a few string attached, though. Demons summoned in this way cannot have less than 3d8 POW, and no less than 4d8 if you were gifted more than 10 MP (i.e. if your allegiance was >20). So, the guys are hard to bind and usually prone to further the agenda of the Chaos Lords. Failure in rolling allegiance or failure in the POW roll for summoning the demon immediately decrease your allegiance by 1d8. The Lords don't like failure. Furthermore, any failure requires a second Luck roll. If this fails, the failure is downgraded to a fumble. Prepare to be eaten by the Kyrenee... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinabrett Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 4 hours ago, smiorgan said: The obvious suspect is grisly sacrifice and consequent POW tapping "Blood and souls for Arioch!". It does not have to be ritual, it could occur during combat with the proper invocations. Of course this will ramp up your Chaos allegiance. This was my general idea. I just didn't know how to word it without causing offence. I thought the sacrifice of one sentient soul would be the equivalent of one POW. Of course, such a sacrifice would be "wilful murder" and add to the character's Shadow/Chaos/Evil Allegiance points. Colin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dethstrok9 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 How about when we bind items into demons? 1 Quote -Voice of the Legion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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