Sons and Daughters of the Sun

[M Helsdon]

As I continue working on the sequel to Armies and Enemies, I am finding it necessary to dig as deep as I can into Western mythologies. It has struck me that many of the gods of the Enerali, the Enjoreli, and others are slightly unfamiliar aspects of already well-known deities.

The ones I find most intriguing, and the most controversial are the Solar deities.

Ehilm is obviously Yelm, but then there are Ehilm's son and daughter, Galanin the Sun Horse, and Galana, also the Sun Horse - due to a difference in pantheons between the Korioni and Vustri, and perhaps because the former backed Ehilm in the competition with Erulat over Mata the Green Lady, and the other backed Erulat...

Now, in central Genertela, in Saird and Dragon Pass, the Son of the Sun is Yelmalio, who seems to be the same god as Kargzant (and Elmal, but let's not go into that). It seems that Galanin is another aspect of Yelmalio - same association with horses, but a very different cultural legacy, but that may be an example of a cultural lens affecting how a god is perceived. The Yelmalio cult has inherited the patriarchal chauvinism of Dara Happa, which isn't present in Ralios where the religions seem to have always been a bit more... lively and orgiastic. Galanin was also defeated at some time by Erulat/Orlanth and so the Orlanthi have his horses elsewhere, looked after by Orlanth's daughter, and.... Elmal

What of the Daughter of the Sun?

As the 'sister' of Galanin, it seems very possible that she is an aspect of the goddess also known as Yelorna. The unicorn-riding aspects of Yelorna seem to have been sponsored by the elves, and that cult fought and lost badly against Arkat in Ralios. Yelorna's cult aren't just unicorn riders, as there's a female cavalry regiment riding horses in the Lunar Army.

Again, Galana in Ralios is very different from Yelorna, but it is possible that Yelorna is Galana seen via another cultural lens. Despite the Estali League apparently worshipping Galanin, they are ruled by queens, much as the Vustri were, after Queen Nusa had to flee in the Darkness.

[Tindalos]

49 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

What of the Daughter of the Sun?

It's worth noting that the Sun Daughter in Prax is also associated with the planet Lightfore. Cults of Prax even has Yelmalio as the Unicorn Tribe's dominant cult.

Yelorna is likely another Little Sun, separated due to solar chauvinism.

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Tindalos said:

It's worth noting that the Sun Daughter in Prax is also associated with the planet Lightfore. Cults of Prax even has Yelmalio as the Unicorn Tribe's dominant cult.

David Scott has said that Sun Daughter is Yelmalio, if I understand correctly, not Yelorna.

I don't know if Galanin is associated with Lightfore - if he were, it would pretty much prove the connection. Whilst there is some material available about Ralian religions prior to contact with the Theyalans, there isn't very much.

5 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Yelorna is likely another Little Sun, separated due to solar chauvinism.

Quite possibly. I suspect that before Time, the distinctions between suns, planets and stars weren't as fixed as they are in the Third Age.

[Tindalos]

47 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

David Scott has said that Sun Daughter is Yelmalio, if I understand correctly, not Yelorna.

Certainly, what with them both being Lightfore and their main goddess. It just raises the question of Yelorna's role. Nomad Gods says that "These normally gentle creatures and beasts, are blessed by their goddess, the Sun Daughter, with amazing abilities in battle."

So we end up with them worshipping two goddesses of light associated with unicorns, archery, and elves.

 

50 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Quite possibly. I suspect that before Time, the distinctions between suns, planets and stars weren't as fixed as they are in the Third Age.

Makes sense, especially with the Lightfore being counted as one of the Star Captains (GSB: 98)

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Certainly, what with them both being Lightfore and their main goddess. It just raises the question of Yelorna's role. Nomad Gods says that "These normally gentle creatures and beasts, are blessed by their goddess, the Sun Daughter, with amazing abilities in battle."

Inconsistencies lend Glorantha more reality than most fantasy settings, as real world ancient religions (and our sources about them) often have a similar variation. 

Nomad Gods is about as old a source as we have, but that doesn't make it wrong, just.... more interesting. As Glorantha has developed, some of the older documents are treated almost like palimpsests, overwritten, but not entirely...

The two documents I am aware of about First Age Ralios are also old, and present two different names for Orlanth: Humat and Erulat, and Humat is identified by the Guide as Orlanth, but the name might really relate to Umath, Humakt, or Orlanth... or some combination of all three, as the Enerali like most survivors of the Darkness only preserved tattered remnants of their old myths. 

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

So we end up with them worshipping two goddesses of light associated with unicorns, archery, and elves.

Yelmalio and Yelorna both have Elven origins, in addition to their other origins, and the gender of Gloranthan gods often seems to vary with the culture that worships them.

As the Light in the Darkness, Yelorna was introduced to the Ralians who were allied with Nysalor, by the elves. They defended Hrelar Amali against Arkat and were smashed by him. Now those Ralians included the worshippers of Galanin.

Archery is a common Solar weapon system.

Unicorns... are a bit more difficult to reconcile with Yelmalio, unless he has a female aspect (just don't suggest this near a Sun Dome Temple) which isn't impossible.

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Makes sense, especially with the Lightfore being counted as one of the Star Captains (GSB: 98)

Suspect these are classifications made by mortals.

Another piece of the puzzle is that unicorns are found in Ralios very very close to the original homeland of the Vustri tribe, who worshiped Galana.

The information we have about the gods from different cultures is often difficult to reconcile, much as Storm Bull and Urox are obviously closely related, but are the same god as Bisos who is much more than just a raging Chaos fighter.

[Joerg]

One of the most puzzling or telling points about the sun gods is the fact that the Lightbringers' Quest doesn't necessarily name the Evil Emperor by name in the original versions, but has an independent test of Orlanth's virtue through the Flames of Ehilm. (Not Elmal, though...)

And in Wyrm's Footnotes #10 p.22f  Lightfore used to have his (or her) own set of myths as the son of Pole Star and definitely separate from Yelmalio (whether the elf-friend, the horse-friend, the dragon-friend or the Vrok lord) - long before we ever learned about Antirius or Kargzant and when Jagrekriand was an unknown foe of Orlanth, Tolat the Red Planet and twin brother of Annilla, Alkor the guardian of Alkoth and Shargash unheard of.

Galanin is the son of Ehilm to the Enerali. It isn't clear whether horses do have a Hsunchen descent - are they descendants of Mother Mammal, or are they descendants of King Griffon (another sun god rarely acknowledged by humans) or even Vrimak?

Elven Yelmalio may be the Fire Dryad/Great Tree on top of the Cosmic Mountain rather than a wanderer. Shannon Appelcline talks about the White Elves as Halamdryami, IIRC.

[M Helsdon]

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

One of the most puzzling or telling points about the sun gods is the fact that the Lightbringers' Quest doesn't necessarily name the Evil Emperor by name in the original versions, but has an independent test of Orlanth's virtue through the Flames of Ehilm. (Not Elmal, though...)

The myths of the Enerali divide the competition between the Sun God and the Storm God for the hand of the Green Lady, from the conflict between the Storm God and the Evil Emperor Seras, variously identified as Urtiam or Malkion...

[Tindalos]

39 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Galanin is the son of Ehilm to the Enerali. It isn't clear whether horses do have a Hsunchen descent - are they descendants of Mother Mammal, or are they descendants of King Griffon (another sun god rarely acknowledged by humans) or even Vrimak?

Well, while it's another fallacious western document, in KoS there's this mention of his descent: "Galanin is the son of Lofak, who is the god of Hoofed Animals, and is the son of Hykim and Mikyh, the dragon ancestors of all beasts."

Lofak has been mentioned as another name for Eiritha, presumably meaning Mother Mammal, which would make a bit more sense than having two fathers. (Although that's not impossible in myth)

[Sir_Godspeed]

It's interesting to note that Ehilm is considered to be the son of Lodik in Ralios, which turns a brotherly relation into a paternal one, or alternatively conflates Lodril with Aether Primolt OR the name simply refers to Aether Primolt (the latter which I think is the least likely considering Aether pretty much hasn't been overly active since sometime in the Golden Age).  

These differing genealogies (differing from the more commonly explored Theyalan-Pelorian synthesis, that is) aren't as unusual as one might think, since Pelandan mythology in the Entekosiad also gives Lodril (Turos) a much older provenance than Yelm.

I know this is tangential to the question here, but my point is - sometimes I think we have this bias where we think the Orlanthi-Dra Happan version of things most commonly put down in books is more "true" simply because we've been exposed more to it, and than we "need" to make other mythic genealogies "conform" to it.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The information we have about the gods from different cultures is often difficult to reconcile, much as Storm Bull and Urox are obviously closely related, but are the same god as Bisos who is much more than just a raging Chaos fighter.

(Unless Tawar/Enjorel (feel free to argue which is which) is Storm Bull and Bisos is actually more of a Waha analogue. Butcher vs. Priest. Both are essentially sacrificers and divine middle men. The timeline might be off though.) 
 

52 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Lofak has been mentioned as another name for Eiritha, presumably meaning Mother Mammal, which would make a bit more sense than having two fathers. (Although that's not impossible in myth)

Lo-Fak is also the name of the Yak Hsunchen of the Shan Shan. 

Personally, I think this points to Eirithia more being "Mother of Hoofed (Herd?) Herbivores", a bit like Fralar is "Father of (Mammalian?) Carnivores". Somewhat abstract categories, admittedly, but not too hard to conceptualize. 


---------

Anyway, am I too far off the mark in saying that Yelorna is basically something like "Yelmalio as a Woman" and Yelmalio is "Yelorna as a Man"? 

Moreover, isn't "Yelmalio" a fairly new name for the Cold Sun cult? I know there've been multiple "waves" of the Sun Domer cult across Genertela (Tharkantus, etc.) so I'm wondering in what form the earliest Enerali would have known the Little/Cold Sun immediately after the Dawn. Was it indigenous to them or their Ralian neighbors, or was it always an import from across the Rockwoods or elsewhere?

[Mirza]

To give my two cents, I agree with the thought that Galana/Galanin is the Lightfore deity of the Enerali. It's specifically how after Eurmal kills them, retrieves Ehilm's flame from the Underworld, and attempts to cook the remains of Galana/Galanin that then the resurrected Ehilm is brought back, it makes a clear connection between Galana/Galanin and Ehilm, and it brings to mind ideas I've heard that Lightfore is also part of the daytime Sun, separating and reintegrating each dusk and dawn, never entering the Underworld.

18 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

due to a difference in pantheons between the Korioni and Vustri, and perhaps because the former backed Ehilm in the competition with Erulat over Mata the Green Lady, and the other backed Erulat...

"On earth, the sons of Eneral feuded as well: the middle sons Uton and Fornao fought for Ehilm, but Korion, the oldest son, and Vustr, the youngest son, fought for Erulat." -https://www.glorantha.com/docs/safelster-in-the-first-age/

I know you know about this, but still I gotta disagree with you here on this part, it was Uton, Fornao, and their descendants that followed Ehilm, not Korion and his, the Korioni are Storm Enerali.

And frankly I'm not so sure that the Galanini care about the gender of Galana/Galanin, the identification as the Sun Horse is the far more important to the worship of the deity, whether it's as mare or stallion doesn't matter nearly as much. I'm sure each clan has it's preference on the gender of the Sun Horse, but then your clan will hit myths that contradict, where Galana is the stud for a mare or Galanin provides mare's milk, and you just shrug and carry on, such are the gods, transcendent beyond such simple matters as gender.

18 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Yelorna

With the Yelornans and the Sun Daughter, I've been having the thought that perhaps the Yelorna cult as a Nysalorian cult wasn't just a friendly attempt to give new magic to the Galanini to get them on board with Nysalor, but was a tool of conversion for the Empire of Light so that the Galanini would be in a more subservient and acceptable to the Dara Happans that also inhabited the Empire.

The Empire has this group of solar horse riding peoples in it, the Galanini, but they have this idea that men and women are equal in stature to one another, which is unacceptable to the majority culture of the administrators of the Empire, not to mention their sexual openness, and even claim to be able to command the Sun, heretical stuff. So you start thinking about how you can change them to better fit your own social mores, you create or raise up a lesser god, Yelorna, that fits into the same cult niche as the ancestor Lightfore god of the Galanini, the horse rider warrior archetype, and you make Yelora subservient in her own mythology to the male deities that the Dara Happans worship, but to keep the Galanini from outright rejecting her, you make Yelorna subservient to the ancestor Sun Horse cult, for now whom you specifically identify as a goddess.

You introduce Yelorna to the Galanini with revelations and missionaries, at first the Galanini don't bite, you're not worried, you back the cult with the resources of the Empire to get converts over time, which slowly you do, creating a hard edge of the Galanini that follow Yelorna. You plan to keep these missionaries and slow conversion going until it reaches a watershed moment where you can have a revelation where you simply remove Galana/Galanin from the mythology of the Galanini, they in fact were always the followers of Yelorna, prodigal children of Dara Happa brought back into the fold. And those that would reject your revelation? Well you'd hope these poor lost souls see Nysalor's truth, but if they don't, you're still an empire. And perhaps while you're doing this you glance your eyes towards the east, towards that other group of horse riding solar people.

These techniques for conversion should seem all too familiar to us, but perhaps that the Empire of Light and the Lunar Empire might use the same techniques as each other should be less surprising than it seems.

(Also I firmly put the Yelornans as exclusively riding unicorns as a later adaptation to be more acceptable to Praxians, while the unicorns were a part of the cult during the Empire of Light time, I also think the majority of the cult was still pony riders.)

8 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The two documents I am aware of about First Age Ralios are also old, and present two different names for Orlanth: Humat and Erulat, and Humat is identified by the Guide as Orlanth, but the name might really relate to Umath, Humakt, or Orlanth... or some combination of all three,

Eh where the Guide might lack detail, I lean towards trusting Safelster in the First Age as next priority above all others since it's a Greg document, which means Humakt is already a known god to the Enerali. Also leaving Humakt as himself, and Humat as Orlanth leads to a small unsubstantiated theory of mine, the Humat cult eventually becomes the Orlanth Rex cult.

Humat/Orlanth is the King of the Gods to the Orlanthi Enerali, but rather than lead by consent of the ruled like the Theyalan Orlanth does, there's a sense that Humat is willing to use death for those that defy him in a way that might not be there for Orlanth, there isn't the reconciliation phase of the Lightbringers Quest the Theyalan Orlanth has until it was introduced by the missionaries. My thoughts lead towards this forcefulness as King leading towards the Orlanth Rex cult forming among the Korioni, I say the Korioni because I also have another minor unsubstantiated theory that Ala-KOR-ing is one of them, that and the Vustri were a part of the EWF moreso than the Korioni. Also it plays into the Storm Enerali's dislike of the Galanini as the priests of Hrelar Amali as well.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Mirza

[M Helsdon]

13 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Well, while it's another fallacious western document, in KoS there's this mention of his descent: "Galanin is the son of Lofak, who is the god of Hoofed Animals, and is the son of Hykim and Mikyh, the dragon ancestors of all beasts."

As it is described as fallacious, I have ignored the reference.

12 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Moreover, isn't "Yelmalio" a fairly new name for the Cold Sun cult? 

Probably, but the god is quite ancient.

12 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

IMoreover, isn't "Yelmalio" a fairly new name for the Cold Sun cult? I know there've been multiple "waves" of the Sun Domer cult across Genertela (Tharkantus, etc.) so I'm wondering in what form the earliest Enerali would have known the Little/Cold Sun immediately after the Dawn. Was it indigenous to them or their Ralian neighbors, or was it always an import from across the Rockwoods or elsewhere?

The 'little sun' has been widely worshiped since the Dawn and before, under a variety of names (Kargzant, Elmal) so it is quite likely the Enerali had their own name.

The actual Yelmalio cult (though probably not by that name) was planted by the EWF in Karia in the Second Age, and is now associated with the native Yelorna cult, by whatever name she is known by in Ralios.

5 hours ago, Mirza said:

I know you know about this, but still I gotta disagree with you here on this part, it was Uton, Fornao, and their descendants that followed Ehilm, not Korion and his, the Korioni are Storm Enerali.

Yes, I got it wrong in my post above, but have it correct in the document I am writing. It means that the Dangan Confederacy and the Dari Alliance tended towards the Solar, and so were more likely perhaps to fall under the sway of Nysalor's influence...

5 hours ago, Mirza said:

With the Yelornans and the Sun Daughter, I've been having the thought that perhaps the Yelorna cult as a Nysalorian cult wasn't just a friendly attempt to give new magic to the Galanini to get them on board with Nysalor, but was a tool of conversion for the Empire of Light so that the Galanini would be in a more subservient and acceptable to the Dara Happans that also inhabited the Empire.

The cult of human unicorn riders was apparently unveiled by elves also under the influence of Nysalor. Given that the Bright Empire crossed cultural divides and included numerous non-Dara Happans, I don't believe their views would have been a factor.

The unicorn riders seem to have existed before this, but as an isolated group. I suspect a Vustri origin, and that Yelorna was perhaps an aspect of Galana...

5 hours ago, Mirza said:

(Also I firmly put the Yelornans as exclusively riding unicorns as a later adaptation to be more acceptable to Praxians, while the unicorns were a part of the cult during the Empire of Light time, I also think the majority of the cult was still pony riders.)

Even in the Third Age, there's Yelornan cavalry riding horses in the Lunar Army.

I have always assumed that the Yelornans ride unicorns, and whatever other mounts are available.

5 hours ago, Mirza said:

Eh where the Guide might lack detail, I lean towards trusting Safelster in the First Age as next priority above all others since it's a Greg document, which means Humakt is already a known god to the Enerali. Also leaving Humakt as himself, and Humat as Orlanth leads to a small unsubstantiated theory of mine, the Humat cult eventually becomes the Orlanth Rex cult.

Humat/Orlanth is the King of the Gods to the Orlanthi Enerali, but rather than lead by consent of the ruled like the Theyalan Orlanth does, there's a sense that Humat is willing to use death for those that defy him in a way that might not be there for Orlanth, there isn't the reconciliation phase of the Lightbringers Quest the Theyalan Orlanth has until it was introduced by the missionaries. My thoughts lead towards this forcefulness as King leading towards the Orlanth Rex cult forming among the Korioni, I say the Korioni because I also have another minor unsubstantiated theory that Ala-KOR-ing is one of them, that and the Vustri were a part of the EWF moreso than the Korioni. Also it plays into the Storm Enerali's dislike of the Galanini as the priests of Hrelar Amali as well.

In the First Age, from what I can tell, Orlanth as the wielder of Death was fairly widely known, so a confusion between a Storm God carrying the weapon of Severing, and an ex-Storm God embodying severing is quite likely. Humakt is still associated with the North Wind even though he's no longer a Storm God. When you have isolated groups with a low population, the transmission of oral traditions is likely to be prone to error. The Theyalan missionaries were able to tell the Enerali things about the Enerali gods they themselves had forgotten. 

As there's several centuries and a great deal of cultural intermingling, it isn't easy to peel away Second Age developments back to the early Dawn Age. Humat probably evolved into distinct Tarumath and Orlanth cults, and possibly Humakt as well. I suspect that by the Second Age, the Vustri (and the Korioni) were no longer distinct populations, having merged with Orlanthi settlers, and in the case of the Vustri, also various Hsunchen groups.

Edited April 26, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

As it is described as fallacious, I have ignored the reference.

On the other hand, that description is in universe, so it's possible it's Theyalan bias, given it would apply the fallaciousness to Galanin as well.

And of course the other myths collected there claiming that the Grazelanders are all actually centaurs is given there and treated as fact while their origins in Prax are also known. So I'd say it's possible for Lofak to still be seen as the mother with Ehilm.

Although we do know later God Learner geneologies instead paint the horse as a direct descendant of Mikyh, rather than Lofak.

 

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I have always assumed that the Yelornans ride unicorns, and whatever other mounts are available.

Makes perfect sense, given the rarity of unicorns, likely only Rune Lords would have access to them, with Initiates making do with mares, does, or cows which may be descended from unicorns themselves.

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, Tindalos said:

On the other hand, that description is in universe, so it's possible it's Theyalan bias, given it would apply the fallaciousness to Galanin as well.

It's a God Learner construct...

The Malkioni seem to have assumed that all the native populations were animal people, even though the Enerali and Enjoreli were not, or almost all of them were not. 

It's now ironic that most of the Third Age Seshnelans are descended to a high degree from conquered/and/or/assimilated Pendali and Enerali.

[Mirza]

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The cult of human unicorn riders was apparently unveiled by elves also under the influence of Nysalor. Given that the Bright Empire crossed cultural divides and included numerous non-Dara Happans, I don't believe their views would have been a factor.

The unicorn riders seem to have existed before this, but as an isolated group. I suspect a Vustri origin, and that Yelorna was perhaps an aspect of Galana...

I believe the Dara Happans were the leading human voice in the Second Council by a decent margin. While 4/10 of the seats on the council were Dara Happan by 411 ST (Holy Estorex a Dayzatari who was the chief missionary to Ralios, an Oslira worshiper in the Water Seat, a Lodrili in the Fire Seat, and Emperor Khorzanelm), when we account for just the human seats, the Dara Happans account for half the human representation or so, and I certainly don't think the other human councilors actually care about the Galanini.

Lokamayadon isn't going to care about some non-Storm worshippers, he's got his eye on the prize. Talsardian of Fronela we can't say much on. Seri-Phy-Ranor's nephew can probably be convinced if this whole thing brings greater closeness to the Golden Age and Nysalor. The Magic Seat Councilor is a toss-up as we don't know much about them save that they're an illuminate.

For the non-Human voices on the high council there's just two at this point, the Mostali, Angarko the Golden Diamond, isn't going to object to humans trying to make them function as they did during the Golden Age, rather it seems like something the Mostali would actively support. Taris Sharpthorn the Elven Earth Seat Councilor is the last, he's one that I could see go either way, but as he's had no noted objections to the Empire so far, I'm willing to say that he assented to the project, and the Aldryami's part in it.

The Dara Happan bloc of the council had more than enough influence, and had either the indifference or willing assent of the other councilors to get the Yelorna proselytization started imo.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

It's a God Learner construct...

But it looks like one that Zzabur would sign off, too.

 

 

Quote

The Malkioni seem to have assumed that all the native populations were animal people, even though the Enerali and Enjoreli were not, or almost all of them were not. 

Both the Enjoreli and the Enerali do trace their ancestry back to a beast deity (Tawar and Galanin, respectively), and so do quite a few Storm worshipers (e.g. the Praxians). Not to mention the Hsunchen origin of a large part of the Kralori population.

 

Quote

It's now ironic that most of the Third Age Seshnelans are descended to a high degree from conquered/and/or/assimilated Pendali and Enerali.

Third Age Seshnela really is Tanisor, a western Ralian kingdom that has usurped the Seshnegi regalia and titles. There may be some Brithini ancestry in a number of noble houses as lesser sons (from Seshnela and Jrustela) would have pursued their luck in the conquered lands of the Autarchy, and there might have been a few of the Seshnegi followers of Arkat who had gone native at the time the Autarchy was founded.

The Malkioni racism or supremacism is at times not that very pronounced. The integration of the Pithdarans into their empire took less than two generations.

According to Middle Sea Empire, the conflict with the Autarchy stems from a Trump-ish offense that Nralar the Old took when an Autarch of Ralios failed to send some unprecedented tribute to the rather insignificant king of the peninsula (MSE p.10f), and from some problems with troll raids from Guhan. Whether Arkat still was the Autarch at the time of Nralar's ascension is another question - his apotheosis should have taken place around 500. If he still was around, those ambassadors must have been sent out immediately after Nralar inherited his father's kingdom without any other qualification than birth.

Tanisor was not yet a part of the Kingdom of Seshnela at the time of the reign of King Bretnos, a brother of his predecessor Nepur whose offspring was skipped much like Nepur's older brothers had been. Unlike their uncles, these sons did not have the grace to leave the kingdom but had their uncle assassinated on occasion of opening the Fourth Ecclesiastical Council of Malkionism.

 

I wonder whether Thyerm was a sacred king of Hrelar Amali, or of the Basmoli lineage. In Seshnegi annals, no thought is given to that, though.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Joerg

[M Helsdon]

8 hours ago, Mirza said:

I believe the Dara Happans were the leading human voice in the Second Council by a decent margin. While 4/10 of the seats on the council were Dara Happan by 411 ST (Holy Estorex a Dayzatari who was the chief missionary to Ralios, an Oslira worshiper in the Water Seat, a Lodrili in the Fire Seat, and Emperor Khorzanelm), when we account for just the human seats, the Dara Happans account for half the human representation or so, and I certainly don't think the other human councilors actually care about the Galanini.

Even though the Dangan and Dari were mostly Solar Enerali, any Dara Happan influence in Ralios didn't survive Arkat.

8 hours ago, Mirza said:

The Dara Happan bloc of the council had more than enough influence, and had either the indifference or willing assent of the other councilors to get the Yelorna proselytization started imo.

The Yelornan cult seems to have originated in Ralios?

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

But it looks like one that Zzabur would sign off, too.

Again, outside bias.

 

[Mirza]

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Even though the Dangan and Dari were mostly Solar Enerali, any Dara Happan influence in Ralios didn't survive Arkat.

Agreed, part of why I like this theory is that help explains why the Galanini became Arkati. Arkat showed them the lies of Nysalor, showed them how the Empire of Light would suborn the Galanini to it. All this is known behavior for Arkat since after the final battle at the Tower of Dreams, Arkat did come back to Hrelar Amali and purged it of the last false remnants of Nysalor.

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Yelornan cult seems to have originated in Ralios?

I misspoke when I used the word "created", my apologies. I don't doubt that there was a pre-existing cult of unicorn riders in Ralios beforehand, though I couldn't find this specific reference in my collection. Perhaps it would be say that the Second Council altered an already extant cult to better fit their needs, one that already had certain qualities that they sought, but as a lesser cult, is malleable to the revelations of Nysalor altering it. Think Monrogh and the Yelmalio Revelation, it shifts the god into a different myth context, from whatever the Aldryami context was beforehand to one that's far more syncretic to Dara Happan in cosmology without fundamentally changing the deity.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Again, outside bias.

In that case, was each of the Hsunchen ancestral deities created by Earthmaker as a finished beast, or do we get ancestral common type entities like Fralar or Mother Mammal, or even Hykim and Mikyh, somewhere?

Not necessarily in the case of Galanin, but e.g. in the case of the entirely hypothetical Bemur the Bull?

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

In that case

The majority if not all of the Enerali and Enjoreli were not Hsunchen.

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Mirza said:

Agreed, part of why I like this theory is that help explains why the Galanini became Arkati. Arkat showed them the lies of Nysalor, showed them how the Empire of Light would suborn the Galanini to it. All this is known behavior for Arkat since after the final battle at the Tower of Dreams, Arkat did come back to Hrelar Amali and purged it of the last false remnants of Nysalor.

My interpretation is that there was initially at least a two way battle between the pro- and anti-Nysalor Ralian natives when Arkat first entered Ralios, and he picked up Enerali-Orlanthi and Hsunchen allies. It may have been happening even before he made his appearance.

7 hours ago, Mirza said:

I misspoke when I used the word "created", my apologies. I don't doubt that there was a pre-existing cult of unicorn riders in Ralios beforehand, though I couldn't find this specific reference in my collection. Perhaps it would be say that the Second Council altered an already extant cult to better fit their needs, one that already had certain qualities that they sought, but as a lesser cult, is malleable to the revelations of Nysalor altering it. Think Monrogh and the Yelmalio Revelation, it shifts the god into a different myth context, from whatever the Aldryami context was beforehand to one that's far more syncretic to Dara Happan in cosmology without fundamentally changing the deity.

Perhaps, except that Yelorna, at least under that name, is difficult to identify with any Dara Happan deity.

The presence of unicorns near the Vustri territories is intriguing, though it is probably too much to suggest that the -na suffix of Yelorna and Galana indicates a common origin. A Ralian version might be something like Elorna...?

Edited April 27, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Mirza]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

My interpretation is that there was initially at least a two way battle between the pro- and anti-Nysalor Ralian natives when Arkat first entered Ralios, and he picked up Enerali-Orlanthi and Hsunchen allies. It may have been happening even before he made his appearance.

Your version of the events are completely plausible here, and was the other period I thought Arkat's truth to the Galanini could theoretically happen. I just decided to be cautious and lean towards a period with more textual evidence of Arkat purging Nysalor's revelations from Hrelar Amali, and thus the Galanini.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Perhaps, except that Yelorna, at least under that name, is difficult to identify with any Dara Happan deity.

The presence of unicorns near the Vustri territories is intriguing, though it is probably too much to suggest that the -na suffix of Yelorna and Galana indicates a common origin. A Ralian version might be something like Elorna...?

Yeah my assumption is that Yelorna wouldn't be under that name, and I agree with Elorna as the Ralian name (maybe Ehlorna?).

For trying to identify Yelorna with a Dara Happan, since this the Khordavu dynasty period of Dara Happa it would be tempting to use exclusively the God's Wall for identification, but at the same time the Plentonic Debates are in full swing by now making it clear that Plentonius' identifications aren't absolute.

Still if I were to identify Yelorna with a God's Wall deity, well Ourania is the most like Yelorna of the God's Wall figures but Jeff has explicitly said she isn't her though, so perhaps Oropum then as I see a connection between being the Guiding Star and the Light in the Dark. Or again as the Plentonic Debates are going on, and the fallibility of Plentonius is known, perhaps she isn't a God's Wall figure at all, some other star in the sky, acceptable to proper Dara Happan social mores, but lesser enough not to be on the God's Wall.

[M Helsdon]

9 minutes ago, Mirza said:

Your version of the events are completely plausible here, and was the other period I thought Arkat's truth to the Galanini could theoretically happen. I just decided to be cautious and lean towards a period with more textual evidence of Arkat purging Nysalor's revelations from Hrelar Amali, and thus the Galanini.

There are hints that Nysalor's missionaries weren't universally welcomed. It's possibly apparent in the historical maps in the Guide/AAA.

10 minutes ago, Mirza said:

Still if I were to identify Yelorna with a God's Wall deity, well Ourania is the most like Yelorna of the God's Wall figures but Jeff has explicitly said she isn't her though, so perhaps Oropum then as I see a connection between being the Guiding Star and the Light in the Dark. Or again as the Plentonic Debates are going on, and the fallibility of Plentonius is known, perhaps she isn't a God's Wall figure at all, some other star in the sky, acceptable to proper Dara Happan social mores, but lesser enough not to be on the God's Wall.

No, not Ourania, but possibly born of her tears.

One source I came across suggests that Pole Star usurped her place in the heavens (though don't ask me to find it!)

[Mirza]

17 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

No, not Ourania, but possibly born of her tears.

One source I came across suggests that Pole Star usurped her place in the heavens (though don't ask me to find it!)

Are you thinking Musa or Supla then? Musa seems to be more obvious answer of the two, as the bearer of light, but just want to make sure.

Also I'm not cruel enough to ask you to search for that source for my own selfish desires, that theory seems interesting.

[M Helsdon]

3 minutes ago, Mirza said:

Are you thinking Musa or Supla then? Musa seems to be more obvious answer of the two, as the bearer of light, but just want to make sure.

Am not certain if a Dara Happan identification can be made.

Unfortunately, in trying to find material I have been working through so many bits and pieces, that I cannot recall what came from where (my non-canonical Western booklet is now at about 89K words, so whilst I know which bits I have made up, recalling where the rest came from is impossible - had the same problem with Armies and Enemies).

[Sir_Godspeed]

I think I'm repeating myself here, but isn't it just possible that she's another female Lightfore? If Galana can be that, why not Yelorna? 

I suppose the explicit reference to stars is a unique aspect of hers, but is it that far beyond what we usually associate with Lightfore mythology (as varied and conflicting as it is)? 

Given that in Orlanthi culture, Lightfore is weirdly his own dad (Elmal father of Anatyr, ie. Antirius, another Lightfore/Cold Sun), it doesn't seem too farfetched to me.