Sons and Daughters of the Sun

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Mirza said:

Still if I were to identify Yelorna with a God's Wall deity, well Ourania is the most like Yelorna of the God's Wall figures but Jeff has explicitly said she isn't her though, so perhaps Oropum then as I see a connection between being the Guiding Star and the Light in the Dark. Or again as the Plentonic Debates are going on, and the fallibility of Plentonius is known, perhaps she isn't a God's Wall figure at all, some other star in the sky, acceptable to proper Dara Happan social mores, but lesser enough not to be on the God's Wall.

My guess for Yelorna's presence on the Gods Wall is to connect her with the spear-wielder, I-19.

Plentonius associated it with Avivorus/Hastatus, who is likely an incarnation of the Lightfore God. Despite commonly being viewed as male, the figure appears to be one of the ones the Glorious Reascent's guide to the wall refers to as "NEUTRAL gender is also present in large number. These are generally short, and have neither beard nor breasts. Plentonius universally labels them as male. Subsequent debate brought this into question, first by deciding that they were all actually servants and therefore identified as genderless. Later some were identified as male, others as female, and some indeterminable. Later yet some extremists and experimenters claimed those images were said to be of deities who were sexless, hermaphroditic, or even able to change genders."

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

No, not Ourania, but possibly born of her tears.

If you go back to the Yelorna cult writeup you'll note: "Yelorna is the daughter of Yelm the sun god and of Ernalda, whom Yelm and Orlanth fought over. She took mostly after her father..."

So, not Ourania, or even a sky deity.  She's like Yelmalio and Yamsur in that regard.  

[Mirza]

True, I don't necessarily have a problem with Yelorna as another little sun, I was simply looking for the commonalities between her and other deities, perhaps she's the Aldryami of Greatwood's Little Sun, a sibling to Galana/Galanin. But then it leaves a bit of a question on the Dara Happan identification of Yelorna, then again Yasmur isn't on The God's Wall so Yelorna might still not be on there, or perhaps Tindalos' idea of Avivorus/Hastatus as Yelorna is correct.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The majority if not all of the Enerali and Enjoreli were not Hsunchen.

From the moment they identified as Enerali rather than Galanini, I think that is necessarily true. The case of the Pendali is similar, IMO. Those who take their magical strength out of the descent from the Land Goddess are different from those who take their power from the Serpent Brotherhood of shamans. In case of the Enjoreli and the Enerali, I see a strong indication that they switched from a hunter-gatherer culture to pastoralism and (plow-less) agriculture or horticulture. The urban portion of the Pendali would be a similar case.

I tried to find out more about the Botai culture as a possible real-world parallel either for the Hyaloring Pure Horse folk or the Galanini.

[M Helsdon]

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I think I'm repeating myself here, but isn't it just possible that she's another female Lightfore? If Galana can be that, why not Yelorna? 

I suppose the explicit reference to stars is a unique aspect of hers, but is it that far beyond what we usually associate with Lightfore mythology (as varied and conflicting as it is)? 

Given that in Orlanthi culture, Lightfore is weirdly his own dad (Elmal father of Anatyr, ie. Antirius, another Lightfore/Cold Sun), it doesn't seem too farfetched to me.

I suspect that we are seeing all the Gloranthan deities and their mythologies through the cultural lens of their worshippers, so contradictions and inconsistencies are inevitable. It means it is very difficult to 'wind back' to find equivalent deities in other cultures for which we have no details.

[M Helsdon]

8 hours ago, Tindalos said:

My guess for Yelorna's presence on the Gods Wall is to connect her with the spear-wielder, I-19.

Plentonius associated it with Avivorus/Hastatus, who is likely an incarnation of the Lightfore God. Despite commonly being viewed as male, the figure appears to be one of the ones the Glorious Reascent's guide to the wall refers to as "NEUTRAL gender is also present in large number. These are generally short, and have neither beard nor breasts. Plentonius universally labels them as male. Subsequent debate brought this into question, first by deciding that they were all actually servants and therefore identified as genderless. Later some were identified as male, others as female, and some indeterminable. Later yet some extremists and experimenters claimed those images were said to be of deities who were sexless, hermaphroditic, or even able to change genders."

Yes, Plentonius isn't an objective source, and the issues of cultural context arise.

7 hours ago, Mirza said:

True, I don't necessarily have a problem with Yelorna as another little sun, I was simply looking for the commonalities between her and other deities, perhaps she's the Aldryami of Greatwood's Little Sun, a sibling to Galana/Galanin. But then it leaves a bit of a question on the Dara Happan identification of Yelorna, then again Yasmur isn't on The God's Wall so Yelorna might still not be on there, or perhaps Tindalos' idea of Avivorus/Hastatus as Yelorna is correct.

We have the problem that god genealogies even if not God Learner constructs and fabrications are still created by their worshipers, the inevitable human desire to create an ordered 'list'. 

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

If you go back to the Yelorna cult writeup you'll note: "Yelorna is the daughter of Yelm the sun god and of Ernalda, whom Yelm and Orlanth fought over. She took mostly after her father..."

So, not Ourania, or even a sky deity.  She's like Yelmalio and Yamsur in that regard.  

I know. The sources are inconsistent. 

[metcalph]

Yelorna isn't on the Gods Wall for the same reason that Humakt and Pamalt aren't.  It is a record of the Gods worshipped by the Emperor of Dara Happa and his subjects.  Gods worshipped outside those lands are not depicted for the same reason that the Behistun Inscription does not mention Lao Tze or Quetzalcoatl.  

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Yelorna isn't on the Gods Wall for the same reason that Humakt and Pamalt aren't.  It is a record of the Gods worshipped by the Emperor of Dara Happa and his subjects.  Gods worshipped outside those lands are not depicted for the same reason that the Behistun Inscription does not mention Lao Tze or Quetzalcoatl.  

Entirely agree, and as we don't known who made the Gods Wall, exactly who and what it depicts will always be subject to debate. The human Dara Happans use it as a template for their culture, but as Plentonius' speculations show, their interpretations are conjecture.

It is very unlikely the Dara Happans would know or even show the gods of the Enerali and their Galanini aristocracy. It's a pity we don't have a similar depiction of the (ruined) temple complex at Hrelar Amali - I imagine it as not being unlike Gobekli Tepe in some regards. We do have a fairly long list of gods the Enerali knew of, and many of them seem near identical to those of the Storm and Solar pantheons.

It is apparent that before the Darkness the Enerali had a fairly sophisticated culture, but like other survivors of the Darkness, their populations numbered only in the few thousands, and were divided by their Gods War division of the tribes who supported Ehilm and those who supported Erulat. This relic population were semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers, with limited horticulture, with a few tribal centers in addition to Hrelar Amali. All the sons of Eneral had died in the battle between Sun and Storm over the hand of the Great Green Lady. Their population only increased after the first few centuries after the Dawn when they had learned agriculture and metal-working from the Council missionaries.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

It is apparent that before the Darkness the Enerali had a fairly sophisticated culture,

When before the Darkness, though?

Their early Golden Age appears to have consisted of beast deities roaming the land. I don't think I have seen the origin story for the Mislari or Skyreach Mountains, or the lesser mountain ranges north and south of Safelster. Only the Rockwoods and the Nidan mountains have known myths.

The Plundering of Aron doesn't mention any culture on the way to Seras the Enchanter.

Ralios is full of beast temple cities reminiscent of Göbekli Tepe, it seems like most Hsunchen have one such temple city.

Hrelar Amali is something else, though - the Tanier Valley appears to have had an urban center beyond birthplace temple cities like Galin. However, if this was the place where Flamal sat, there may be a lot less ancient architecture than one might expect, if the architecture was more like gardening.

For a prior urban or agricultural civilization, only the Kachisti and possibly some (other) chthonic population are candidates - the same situation as in Seshnela, really, although the Enerali may have been the chthonic population. The closest other high civilization would have been the Feldichi, who appear to have had a Mahabarata or Shangri La magical technology, or the Nidan dwarves.

At the Dawn, the Enerali don't plow - their horses aren't suitable, and they don't appear to have domesticated cattle yet.That's a similar level as the Tada-Shi appear to have had. They may have been single-species pastoralists, though, with  horses providing milk and (at least ritual) meat.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Enerali had as sophisticated agriculture as the Papua, with well-domesticated (Goddess-given) field fruits. The Darkness may have cost them quite a few of those crops, though.

 

The story of the beast god with his human and beast descendants has been told many times all over Glorantha, with different beasts and different human nations. Many of these appear to join the Hill Barbarians who come as pastoralists but turn out willing to till the fields, too.

We don't seem to have a Golden Age Earth King like Tada or Pamalt. Eneral may be the closest we get. No sign of Entru north of Arstola.

Ralios doesn't appear to have any significant celestial fall-out. I wonder whether Ehilm resided high up in Flamal's crown, later joined by Humat roaming its boughs. The distinctive feature besides the Greatwood are the lakes. The Greatwood may have been similar to the Redwood of Tada's lands, though, with only a few centers of strong aldryami populations.

If Ehilm was indeed a mostly sedentary world-tree dweller, then there would have been some mobile suns roaming the land. Galanin is a candidate, and Galorna may have been his sister.

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Ralios doesn't appear to have any significant celestial fall-out. I wonder whether Ehilm resided high up in Flamal's crown, later joined by Humat roaming its boughs. The distinctive feature besides the Greatwood are the lakes. The Greatwood may have been similar to the Redwood of Tada's lands, though, with only a few centers of strong aldryami populations.

Depending on if you count it as part of Ralios or Maniria (It's in the Maniria section of the guide) there's Selon Mountain in the Mislari mountains. It's a piece of the sky dome torn down by the storm gods.

If nothing else, Id' say that could count as fall-out.

[Joerg]

12 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Depending on if you count it as part of Ralios or Maniria (It's in the Maniria section of the guide) there's Selon Mountain in the Mislari mountains. It's a piece of the sky dome torn down by the storm gods.

If nothing else, Id' say that could count as fall-out.

That's exactly what I was looking for, and it is also conveniently close to Galanin's birthplace. We don't know when this happened - Umath emerged from the Pit (Stormgate) around 70,000 YS, and pushing out that bit of sky dome to create the pit would fit perfectly. Plus there is Wonderwood right next door, with an entire ecology of magical beasts and entities.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

When before the Darkness, though?

Impossible to tell.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Plundering of Aron doesn't mention any culture on the way to Seras the Enchanter.

There's no particular reason it should.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ralios is full of beast temple cities reminiscent of Göbekli Tepe, it seems like most Hsunchen have one such temple city.

Hunter-gatherers lack sufficient population density to support real cities. Seasonal gathering places are more likely, but there are very few 'beast temple cities' in Ralios beyond those of the Enerali, and they weren't Beast People.

Well, you won't like it, but here's a list of the gods the Enerali knew about, at the point when Theyalan missionaries arrived...

The Nine Great Gods
Enerali Name	Title	Theyalan Name
Ehilm	Sun God, Son of Lodik	Yelm/ Elmal
Gata	Goddess of Earth	Gata
Humat/ Humath	Storm God, Son of Gata and Zrenthus	Orlanth/Humakt/Umath
Lodik	Master of Fire	Lodril
Nakala	Goddess of Darkness	Nakala
Sramak	Lord of Waters	Sramak
Tilnta	Goddess of Love and Fertility	Uleria
Utiam	Lord of the Spike	Mostal
Zrenthus	God of Sky	Dayzatar/ Aether

 

The Enerali recognized a number of gods as great powers, including those listed here.

The Powers
Enerali Name	Title	Theyalan Name
Gether	God of Death	Humakt?
Mesor	God of Vengeance
Tilnta	Goddess of Love and Fertility, Mother of Hykim and Mata	Uleria
Vamalm/ Torif Vamale	God of War, Brother of Uele Oline	Kargan Tor

 Some deities were classified as Elementals, each served by a race.

The Elementals
Enerali Name	Title	Theyalan Name
Gata	Goddess of Earth	Gata
Himel	God of Cold	Himile
Humat	Storm God	Umath/ Orlanth/ Humakt
Lodik	Master of Fire	Lodril
Nakala	Goddess of Darkness	Nakala
Sramak	Lord of Waters	Sramak
Zrenthus	God of the Sky	Dayzatar/ Aether

 The Enerali had many other gods, some local, such as the River Goddesses and the tribal founders.

The Gods
Enerali Name	Title	Theyalan Name
Aldrya	Forest Goddess	Aldyra
Anehilla	Blue Moon Goddess, Daughter of Ehilm and Nakala	Annilla
Doska	River Goddess and mother of Vustr
Eladra	Self-Resurrecting Snake Goddess
Eneral	The Old, First Man and Founder, Son of Galanin
Erulat	The Storm God	Orlanth
Eurmal	The Clever One, Firebringer and Trickster	Eurmal
Flamal	God of Plants, Son of Sramak and Gata	Flamal
Fornaol	Son of Eneral, Tribal Founder
Fralar	God of Carnivores, son of Hykim and Mikyh	Fralar
Galana	Horse Goddess and Noble Ancestor
Galanin	Horse God and Noble Ancestor	Yelmalio?
Genner	Land God of Genertela	Genert
Hykim	Dragon Ancestor, God of Beasts, Son of Sramak and Gata	Hykim
Korion /Korost	Son of Eneral, Tribal Founder
Matara /Mata	Earth Mother, the Great Green Lady	Ernalda
Nagi-Mer	Shaman guide and psychopomp, Daughter of Hykim and Mikyh	Korgatsu
Nusa	Queen of the Vustri
Rala	Land Goddess, Daughter of Gata	Ralia
Safa	Goddess of lakes and rain, Sister of Erulat
Seras	God of Sorcery	Seravus
Tagar	Goddess of Fertility and Mother of the Fish of Lake Helby
Tana	River Goddess
Tarin	Earth Defender, the son of Ehilm and Aldrya.
Uele Oline	Healing Goddess of the Well and Spring, Sister of Torif Vamale	Chalana Arroy?
Uton the Hunter	Son of Eneral, Tribal Founder
Vieltor	Smithing God, a fire elemental
Vustr	Son of Eneral, Tribal Founder
Xentha	Goddess of Night	Xentha
Yomat	Friend of Men, Son of Eurmal
Zaval /Korat	The Darkness Killer	Zorak Zoran
Zolan	Son of Ehilm and Nakala, God of Strife and Love	Jagrekriand

 This is a much larger list than can be made for Hsunchen, though a few such as a Smithing God for a people who only worked soft gold is either an error or a memory of a forgotten craft.

Most of these are sourced from documents about the early Enerali, with only a few extras taken from the Xeotam Dialogues.

Edited April 28, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Mirza]

I gotta agree with Martin on this, Joerg, the Storm Age Enerali seem more sophisticated than are given credit, I am inclined to say that Hrelar Amali, and the Lartuli cliff relief were their creations, indicating a culture capable of large scale stone cutting, and thus metal tools, and smithing. And that the Enerali were cut down harsher than even most other surviving peoples by the Great Darkness, with scattered remnants still present in their culture, and gods as to what they were capable of.Though I fully acknowledge that this is conjecture on my part.

I should be clear, my mental image for Hrelar Amali is something closer to Angkor Wat than anything else (more than a bit anachronistic, and out of place I know, since it appears in the Teshan artwork on pg 432 of the Guide.)

I would like to say one thing, Martin, Vieltor the Smithing God who's also a Fire Elemental? I believe that's Gustbran, or at least that's who the Theyalans would identify him as after they arrive.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Mirza

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Impossible to tell.

There's no particular reason it should.

If they were subjects of the Enchanter, they might have been expected to show up.

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Hunter-gatherers lack sufficient population density to support real cities.

Depends strongly on the available hunting and gathering. We're talking Golden Age here, a Garden of Eden-like environment. If they go fishing as a significant part of their diet, they could be sedentary even as a mesolithic culture.

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Seasonal gathering places are more likely, but there are very few 'beast temple cities' in Ralios beyond those of the Enerali, and they weren't Beast People.

Cities of the wolves - one in Telmoria, possibly another one in Daran.

Basmol may be post-Dawn. But the Pendali royal temple sites were pre-Dawn.

 

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Well, you won't like it, but here's a list of the gods the Enerali knew about, at the point when Theyalan missionaries arrived...

No or little debate about that (some of the names I know only from Dawn Seshnelan context)

Ehilm as son of Lodik (who is different from Zrethus) is a noteworthy difference to other pantheons, where the sun usually is the son of the sky..

Gether is an enigmatic figure, and different from Kargan Tor, yet both are entities of the Death Rune. Vengeance is hard to place in the God Learner scheme of Power Runes. Natha gets the Moon rune.

I wonder about the absence of Ehilm from the elemental deities. Fire/Sky is over-defined even so. But so is Darkness/Cold.

 

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

This is a much larger list than can be made for Hsunchen, though a few such as a Smithing God for a people who only worked soft gold is either an error or a memory of a forgotten craft.

The Hrelar Amali list is of course syncretic. This catalogue of deities looks like an early draft of the Gloranthan panteons, and many of these were known to Hrestol.

But do Hsunchen really have fewer deities and spirits than that? All natural phenomena tend to be named as a supernatural entity or the work of one.

Was Hrelar Amali only an Enerali holy place, or did it execute an influence on all neighboring cultures? The Pendali and later the Seshnegi seem to have made pilgrimages there.

Smithing is sorcerous magic in many cultures. Soft gold and fairly hard yet ductile native copper or whatever other godbones are available can be worked into artifacts that get ritual importance. Much like iron is a mark of status among Theyalan rune lords, metal would have been a mark of status in the Ralian tribes.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Mirza said:

I gotta agree with Martin on this, Joerg, the Storm Age Enerali seem more sophisticated than are given credit,

I don't mean to diminish the Enerali, I am rather thinking that all the Hykimi of the West are heirs of greater sophistication - whether from contact with the Kachisti or whether from an earlier chthonic civilization that the Beast God descendants had contact with in a similar manner as the Beast Riders of Prax had with the urban neolithic culture of the Tada-shi.

 

4 hours ago, Mirza said:

I am inclined to say that Hrelar Amali, and the Lartuli cliff relief were their creations, indicating a culture capable of large scale stone cutting, and thus metal tools, and smithing.

There are always the Mostali as a source of imported metal for such work, or even imported labor, but then worked Jade predates widespread use of metal in China, and the carved masonry of Göbekli Tepe predates even cold-hammered copper mace heads.

We might be seeing the handicraft of deities or giants, too. Nobody knows how the Feldichi looked like, or their foes (which may have been Serias the Enchanter).

 

4 hours ago, Mirza said:

And that the Enerali were cut down harsher than even most other surviving peoples by the Great Darkness, with scattered remnants still present in their culture, and gods as to what they were capable of.Though I fully acknowledge that this is conjecture on my part.

Harder than the Tada-shi of Genert's Garden?

And why do the Hykimi ancestors have to be less sophisticated than the monkeys whose ruins are found in western Prax and western Teshnos?

 

4 hours ago, Mirza said:

I should be clear, my mental image for Hrelar Amali is something closer to Angkor Wat than anything else (more than a bit anachronistic, and out of place I know, since it appears in the Teshan artwork on pg 432 of the Guide.)

Hrelar Amali was destroyed by warfare and/or evil magic, and rebuilt, several times. It took the conquest by finally rabidly monotheistic Seshnegi to put the place out of operation for good.

 

The difference of Hrelar Amali to Jerusalem is that Jerusalem never was given up, and that it was the holy place mainly for monotheistic religions.

[scott-martin]

Still really busy as the old world burns. This is all great. Some scattered applause:

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

We don't seem to have a Golden Age Earth King like Tada or Pamalt.

I have increasing conviction that Flamal occupies this function in this part of the world at the Dawn but that rite was only incidentally incorporated into the primary monomyth. One of the "lesser bonuses" that drops out of it is a different relationship with Beast rune that informs how the rider totems evolve versus the lycanthropic totems. I will show my work later.

9 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Well, you won't like it, but here's a list of the gods the Enerali knew about, at the point when Theyalan missionaries arrived...

I like it. The variant elemental theogony reminds me of the catechism of the Altinelans, who have Humakt [sic, "air"] as son of Zrethus ["ether"] and Gata while Lodril ["fire"] produces Ehilm parthenogenetically as a sun to rival storm. I do not think Grower is worshipped in that system separate from Flamal but can be convinced otherwise. (This is probably another of the elf mysteries.) 

 

5 hours ago, Mirza said:

something closer to Angkor Wat

I like this too but don't know where I want that to go.

More work needs to be done throughout!

 

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I like it. The variant elemental theogony reminds me of the catechism of the Altinelans, who have Humakt [sic, "air"] as son of Zrethus ["ether"] and Gata while Lodril ["fire"] produces Ehilm parthenogenetically as a sun to rival storm. I do not think Grower is worshipped in that system separate from Flamal but can be convinced otherwise. (This is probably another of the elf mysteries.) 

I suspect, though have no proof, that the pantheons of the Enerali and others, retain some of Greg's earliest explorations.

7 hours ago, Mirza said:

I would like to say one thing, Martin, Vieltor the Smithing God who's also a Fire Elemental? I believe that's Gustbran, or at least that's who the Theyalans would identify him as after they arrive.

Yes, will add.

[Tindalos]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Hrelar Amali was destroyed by warfare and/or evil magic, and rebuilt, several times. It took the conquest by finally rabidly monotheistic Seshnegi to put the place out of operation for good.

Which may be ironic, given I suspect Hrelar Amali may have also been what they know as New Malkonwal.

And possibly the Sorcerer Town of the Lightbringer Quest, what with Eurmal being set to be executed there. They'd have perfect reason to, given he killed Flamal.

This also makes the Peninsula of Old Seshneg the remnant of the Expulsion Walk, with the Green Woods that sprouted up there being the ancestors of Kanthor and Jorestl's Forests.

[Joerg]

45 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I suspect, though have no proof, that the pantheons of the Enerali and others, retain some of Greg's earliest explorations.

With my limited access to older writings, I find that to be the case. This is the basis of the God Learner cosmology, with the Theyalan names and trappings a later alteration for the Monomyth. That probably had to wait until the Jrusteli had little memory beef with the side effects of the Bright Empire.

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I have increasing conviction that Flamal occupies this function in this part of the world at the Dawn

Was Flamal re-grown? As far as I know the story, ZZ applied the original Death, reshaped by Mostal into an axe, to Flamal, before Eurmal then passed the real McCoy on towards High King Elf who applied it to the base of the Spike.

Land fertility comes from the Green Goddess with those serpents, just like in Fronela and Seshnela.

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

but that rite was only incidentally incorporated into the primary monomyth. One of the "lesser bonuses" that drops out of it is a different relationship with Beast rune that informs how the rider totems evolve versus the lycanthropic totems. I will show my work later.

I do think that the western Hykimi may have been advanced to some urban-ish culture in the Golden Age, before the death of Flamal took the economical and ecological bounty that made that possible away from them. Contact made by the Kachisti suggests that these Westerners found sufficient indications of culture to find someone to talk to other than the Elder Races of the region before they reached as far east as the Sweet Sea. In Ralios, that would have been Hrelar Amali.

 

 

[Mirza]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are always the Mostali as a source of imported metal for such work, or even imported labor, but then worked Jade predates widespread use of metal in China, and the carved masonry of Göbekli Tepe predates even cold-hammered copper mace heads.

We might be seeing the handicraft of deities or giants, too. Nobody knows how the Feldichi looked like, or their foes (which may have been Serias the Enchanter).

The status of Hrelar Amali as The City of the Gods implies a whole different scale on stoneworking and refinement to me than Göbekli Tepe, a large scale temple city complex large enough to several hundred people (even by 130 ST Hrelar Amali was still underpopulated for it's size, imo), that required multiple generations of people to create, making me think that skilled masons were involved in it's construction. (Not to speak ill of Göbekli Tepe, that's still impressive as hell.)

The Mostali certainly have that skill, but thinking about Muse Roost and how expensive just the walls were for Ethilrist leads me to believe that the Dwarves of Nida aren't going to do a temple city complex on the cheap to help out the Enerali. (I know that the Dwarves of Dwarf Mine and the Nidan Dwarves aren't the same, but Bad Deal points towards them being similar in this regard for what amount of trading Nida does.)

Now Mostali as a source of tools isn't quite fine, again there's issue of how exorbitant the Nidan's prices are, if they did purchase the tools and training it also would leave us with skilled masons but without a society able to make the tools required to have developed, and maintain that skill for the multi-generational work Hrelar Amali would be.

There's also even the question of if the Nidans were even willing to sell the skill of their workers, their tools, or to train the Enerali in their usage in the first place as it would be for memorializing an enemy of the Mostali, Flamal. Flamal is one of the hated enemies of the Mostali, why would they ever lift a finger to help people that loved him memorialize him with a grand temple city complex? Yeah they'll make a victory monument for his death, but that's somewhere inside Nida.

Jade is a possibility, but to my knowledge the nearest known source of it would be Dragon Pass or perhaps Esrolia, in the temple Baroshi will later fight Osboropo and the Chaos Maggot during the Chaos Wars being made of carved jade, so with Gloranthan works not giving us the answer then it's on to geology.

"Jadeite and nephrite are minerals that form through metamorphism. They are mostly found in metamorphic rocks associated with subduction zones. This places most jadeite and nephrite deposits along the margins of current or geologically ancient convergent plate boundaries involving oceanic lithosphere." -Hobart M. King, Ph.D., GIA Graduate Gemologist

As Ralios/Seshnela shows no volcanism in the coastal regions of Arolanit, Seshnela, and Tanisor from plate subduction as is found in the Ring of Fire for the Pacific Ocean's coastal regions, and that the Nidan Mountains, and Rockwoods seem to have not formed from oceanic subduction (They seem to have formed from continental collision, and therefore non-volcanic Orogeny, like the Himalayas), it is therefore unlikely that the Enerali had a source of jade to be used for stone mason tools.

There is also Vieltor, everything indicates that he's a pre-Theyalan smithing god, he's a known deity to the Enerali when the Theyalan missionaries reach Hrelar Amali, and as we can see with Orlanth, the Theyalans had zero issue with introducing their gods with the Theyalan name. Specifically he's Gustbran as I have said earlier in the thread, not some craftgod associated with soft metal smithing, but the fiery redsmith himself.

With the implied lavishness of Hrelar Amali as the City of the Gods requiring stone masons, expense of Nidan stone working tools being well outside the capabilities (or the ability, potentially) of the Storm Age Enerali to purchase on top of not being a multi-generational viable plan, zero access to jade, and finally with a pre-Theyalan smithing deity already present (Vieltor), we are left with but a single reasonable option Joerg, the late Storm Age Enerali were capable of metal smithing other than gold, and that it was lost in the Great Darkness.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Harder than the Tada-shi of Genert's Garden?

And why do the Hykimi ancestors have to be less sophisticated than the monkeys whose ruins are found in western Prax and western Teshnos?

No, I doubt nearly anyone surviving was hit as hard as Tada's people in the Great Darkness, that's kinda what happens when your culture hero-god fights the would-be despoiler and annihilator of existence, and loses. But still the Enerali were hit hard, I have to imagine there was significant fallout from Hate Kills Everything that reduced the Enerali to what they were at the Dawn.

I have never been arguing that the Hykimi weren't capable of a megaliths or structures like Göbekli Tepe or their own innovations. Across this thread and the last I have argued that the Enerali developed a pastoralist civilization, for the Utoni and Fornaoli the pastoralism is Pure Horse, during the late Golden Age, and Storm Age to be capable to create Hrelar Amali, a large scale multi-generational stone construction comparable to something like Angkor Wat, and the Lartuli cliff relief, and that the knowledge and skill was lost to the Enerali as they survived the Great Darkness, but remains in small bits of their post-Dawn culture.

I have also argued previously that the Enerali were once Hykimi, but that it isn't all that relevant to them now as they stopped being Hykimi a long long time ago, it would be like trying to call a Runegate Elmali a Dara Happan from Murharazam's reign, it was that long ago.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Kachisti... In Ralios, that would have been Hrelar Amali.

Hrelar Amali was built after Eurmal/Zaval's murder of Flamal, "and marks the place where Flamal, the God of Vegetation, was killed by Eurmal the Trickster." -pg 417 Guide Vol 2, it was basically the extreme of the late Storm Age/start of the Great Darkness that it was completed. (Kinda hard to build a temple city complex on the spot of a gods murder before he was murdered.)

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I suspect, though have no proof, that the pantheons of the Enerali and others, retain some of Greg's earliest explorations.

Here's a quote for you Martin.

On 1/23/2020 at 2:09 AM, Jeff said:

This conflict between Sun and Storm is something that has been hard-wired into Greg's myths since Ehilm and Humak first appeared in the stories of Jonat Bigbear in the 1960s.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Mirza

[Tindalos]

21 minutes ago, Mirza said:

The status of Hrelar Amali as The City of the Gods implies a whole different scale on stoneworking and refinement to me than Göbekli Tepe, a large scale temple city complex large enough to several hundred people (even by 130 ST Hrelar Amali was still underpopulated for it's size, imo), that required multiple generations of people to create, making me think that skilled masons were involved in it's construction. (Not to speak ill of Göbekli Tepe, that's still impressive as hell.)

[...]

Hrelar Amali was built after Eurmal/Zaval's murder of Flamal, "and marks the place where Flamal, the God of Vegetation, was killed by Eurmal the Trickster." -pg 417 Guide Vol 2, it was basically the extreme of the late Storm Age/start of the Great Darkness that it was completed. (Kinda hard to build a temple city complex on the spot of a gods murder before he was murdered.)

These two bits may be closely related. I imagine much of Hrelar Amali is formed from the fossilised remains of Flamal. Petrified wood megaliths forming the walls, with nodules of jet buried under the soil.

[Sir_Godspeed]

40 minutes ago, Mirza said:

Hrelar Amali was built after Eurmal/Zaval's murder of Flamal, "and marks the place where Flamal, the God of Vegetation, was killed by Eurmal the Trickster." -pg 417 Guide Vol 2, it was basically the extreme of the late Storm Age/start of the Great Darkness that it was completed. (Kinda hard to build a temple city complex on the spot of a gods murder before he was murdered.)

 

But not impossible!  

(I get it, though, if we're going to preserve any kind of sanity about this some level of causality, even in the God Time kinda has to be supposed.) 

41 minutes ago, Mirza said:

"Jadeite and nephrite are minerals that form through metamorphism. They are mostly found in metamorphic rocks associated with subduction zones. This places most jadeite and nephrite deposits along the margins of current or geologically ancient convergent plate boundaries involving oceanic lithosphere." -Hobart M. King, Ph.D., GIA Graduate Gemologist

As Ralios/Seshnela shows no volcanism in the coastal regions of Arolanit, Seshnela, and Tanisor from plate subduction as is found in the Ring of Fire for the Pacific Ocean's coastal regions, and that the Nidan Mountains, and Rockwoods seem to have not formed from oceanic subduction (They seem to have formed from continental collision, and therefore non-volcanic Orogeny, like the Himalayas), it is therefore unlikely that the Enerali had a source of jade to be used for stone mason tools.

Glorantha is an incredibly selectively realistic and unrealistic universe. This could be a good argument, or it could be entirely irrelevant depending on whichever writer takes a crack at it. Block of rock floating in an infinite ocean and all that. 

43 minutes ago, Mirza said:

With the implied lavishness of Hrelar Amali as the City of the Gods requiring stone masons, expense of Nidan stone working tools being well outside the capabilities (or the ability, potentially) of the Storm Age Enerali to purchase on top of not being a multi-generational viable plan, zero access to jade, and finally with a pre-Theyalan smithing deity already present (Vieltor), we are left with but a single reasonable option Joerg, the late Storm Age Enerali were capable of metal smithing other than gold, and that it was lost in the Great Darkness.

I have no particular horse in this race, but there are some other things I've considered (they are all pure and utter speculation): 

- Giants? 

- Hrelar Amali was to a large degree reappriopriated from some previous structure, potentially an abandoned Kachisti city/temple? 

- Earth-shaping/Rock-shaping magic by way of Earth cults. 

- Do we know that no parts of Hrelar Amali were wooden? Not planks, per se, but magically purpose-grown? It is a temple of Flamal, after all, and even in death who knows what could be done. 

I get that it's more reasonable to look for RW-adjacent methods, but considering the examples we have from Glorantha that essentially amount to "and then they did a big ritual for lie a long time and *BAM* the thing they needed was there holy crap!", I'm a bit worried about getting "realism-myopia".

[scott-martin]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Was Flamal re-grown?

That's his mythic economy. For those who love God Time paradoxes, Flamal was always the dead, dying and resurrected god even before the confabulation of Taker as death. His city is where that happens. Sacred Rebirth, which is a trick Eastern Brother Genert has yet to achieve and Southern Brother has yet to require. Of course all of this is buried in the seasons of elf and other schismatic cycles, green and brown, Utoni and Vustri, sun and storm, on and on. 

I am not sure the old temple complex was stone or wood as we know it. When it died, the hard parts might have been locked into dead stone while other parts blew away on the wind. But that's a much more complicated story.

I like bringing jade into the conversation. They might have had a cutting stone now lost to a history of systematic plunder, drawing on a source that has been cut off. The coast has a history of tectonic activity and there are local accounts of the Rockwoods emerging catastrophically via the living mountain seeds. The punchline to that one is that the local Lodril entity is an erosive force here, shaking the mountains down when they get tall enough to offend the sky. Greg likes erosion. Maybe the right landslide unearths something hard and sublime in the depths. Maybe something like glass. Somebody has since taken it all away or it wore out.

 

 

[soltakss]

8 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Was Flamal re-grown?

That's his mythic economy.

Flamal was killed by the Trickster, as commemorated in Hrelar Amali. Zorak Zoran also killed him when he chopped him down using Death. The trolls ate all the plants, which killed Flamal, I think, but maybe that was the same thing as Zorak Zoran killing Flamal.

[scott-martin]

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Flamal was killed by the Trickster, as commemorated in Hrelar Amali. Zorak Zoran also killed him when he chopped him down using Death. The trolls ate all the plants, which killed Flamal, I think, but maybe that was the same thing as Zorak Zoran killing Flamal.

Yeah. And then what? The aldryami speak of multiple iterations of the Grower / Taker cycle. They remember multiple deaths and multiple rebirths. It isn't linear history and it isn't the wibbly wobbly of godtime either. Another mythic economy.

"Thamus Panmegas tethneke."