Thoughts on "Finesse" Damage Bonus

[McBard]

I'm curious to know people's experience with or thoughts on houseruling a "finesse" damage bonus. That is, where the core STR + SIZ damage bonus die represents additional damage from power-type attacks, this one would represent accuracy/finesse-based damage bonus.

Using the same scale as the other (i.e. 25-32= +1d4 et al), perhaps certain types of weapons (rapiers, daggers) would receive a bonus damage die based upon, say, DEX + INT. This finesse damage bonus might include missile weapons, as well.

My first thought on balance issues would be that one could only apply one or the other--i.e. an attack with a rapier would not also get the STR+SIZ damage bonus--only the DEX+INT one.

Just brainstorming at the moment.

EDIT: I realize the Impale is the core approach to the spirit of what I'm proposing, and so a finesse damage bonus die AND the possiblity of an Impale might be too much. Perhaps the finesse damage bonus would replace the Impale rules....

[Shaira]

Hi McBard,

Although that sounds like a very cool idea, my gut instinct is to sit back and think about it a bit. Basically it boils down to whether or not you're already taking DEX or INT into account with the weapon skill - for example in increased base chances. If not (old RQ3 would, but modern BRP probably won't have these "skill type bonuses" - the old Agility Skills, Manipulations Skills bonuses, for those who remember), then I think you might have a case for replacing the DB of certain weapons like you say!

Hope that makes sense - just thinking on the fly!

Sarah

[Charles Green]

To my mind, something like finesse could be covered by having a higher skill, thus increasing the chance for a critical hit, or, as you've noted, an Impale result.

However, this does note something interesting about the BRP rules. Combat is fairly simple, but it doesn't represent different types of combat. Swashbuckling musketeer types uses the same rules as a axe-wielding Barbarian. This might prove to be fruitful ground for further supplements.

[Trifletraxor]

Using the same scale as the other (i.e. 25-32= +1d4 et al), perhaps certain types of weapons (rapiers, daggers) would receive a bonus damage die based upon, say, DEX + INT. This finesse damage bonus might include missile weapons, as well.

As Shaira said, RQ3 covered this by higher INT & DEX, which had a LOT to say for starting characters at least. How the new system is handling it might be different though. I think adding to the skill is the right way to go though, as finesse sortoff equals skill.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

I pretty much considered finess damage to be factored into the degree of success results. For instance, arapier, dagger or other finess weapon is usualy an impaling weapon, and so did more damage on sp[ecial successes.

Some BRP variants even went so far as to give rapiers triple damage on an impale.

Personally I think factoring it into skill/degree of success is the path to take.

One thing I like about non-D100 RPGs is that the mardgin of success (difference in rolls) can be easily used as a damage result. With D100 it is a bit tougher.

One option might be to have damage be based on how much you make your roll by (1 point per 10%) plus a base add for STR/SIZ and weapon type (say 1/2 the normal db and weapon damage). Blocking could absorb damage by the same method. Just a wacky idea though.

[McBard]

All good points, thanks.

Per RQ3, since all melee attack modifiers use the Manipulation skills modifer— which favors INT, DEX (primaries) and to a lesser extent STR (secondary)—then a "finesse damage bonus" based upon INT and DEX might be a bit much. Especially with Impales occuring at the 20% (special) rate.

[Nightshade]

I'd tend to approach this sort of thing the way RQ:AIG was going to: similar to RQ3 style martial arts, as a secondary skill that allows tradeoffs to get better results in terms of special attacks and the like. Otherwise, as others have said, I don't see it as distinguishable from higher skill.

[drohem]

I'd tend to approach this sort of thing the way RQ:AIG was going to: similar to RQ3 style martial arts, as a secondary skill that allows tradeoffs to get better results in terms of special attacks and the like. Otherwise, as others have said, I don't see it as distinguishable from higher skill.

This approach appeals to me the most since, as already stated, DEX and INT are factored into the weapon skill.

This way, a character can specialize in a finesse attack style that focuses on precision attacks rather than brute strength, and still be highly effective in combat with comparable damage output.

[Atgxtg]

I'd tend to approach this sort of thing the way RQ:AIG was going to: similar to RQ3 style martial arts, as a secondary skill that allows tradeoffs to get better results in terms of special attacks and the like. Otherwise, as others have said, I don't see it as distinguishable from higher skill.

Hmmm,

Timelords had a skill called wounded that had a similar effect. It was weapon skillspecific, difficult (meaning a lower stating percentage) and could do no more that double the weapon's normal damage. It could easily be adapted to BRP.

Something like:

Wounding (Select Specfic Weapon Skill).

Knowledge skill in RQ3, starting at 00%.

If successful roll an extra damage die for the weapon.

[Nightshade]

Hmmm,

Timelords had a skill called wounded that had a similar effect. It was weapon skillspecific, difficult (meaning a lower stating percentage) and could do no more that double the weapon's normal damage. It could easily be adapted to BRP.

Something like:

Wounding (Select Specfic Weapon Skill).

Knowledge skill in RQ3, starting at 00%.

If successful roll an extra damage die for the weapon.

That's pretty much what I was talking about.

The downside is, of course, is it doesn't _really_ trade for finesse, since it can be used by someone with a lot of strength too. But I'm not sure BRP is well suited for that sort of niche protection hardwired barriering.

[drohem]

Well, that would be the trade-off for use of this "finesse" skill: you trade your STR/SIZ damage bonus for the skill's damage bonus.

This would allow relatively weak damage bonus characters the opportunity to do some serious damage with a finesse weapon.

[Atgxtg]

Well, that would be the trade-off for use of this "finesse" skill: you trade your STR/SIZ damage bonus for the skill's damage bonus.

This would allow relatively weak damage bonus characters the opportunity to do some serious damage with a finesse weapon.

That's one of the other differences between TL and BRP to. In BRP the db is constant. If a troll has a +2d6 db, he adds it to his punch, as well as to his maul. With TL the STR bonus was as a multiplier to the weapon effect. So STR was more useful for larger weapons. Quite sensible, since most weapons act as leverl to increase the effective STR.

[drohem]

Yeah, Greg Porter and BTRC (Blackburg Tactical Research Center) have produced quality RPG products for years now.

I just could never find anyone in my gaming circle willing to try new RPG games/products. It's a crying shame that most gamers get 'set' in their system/products.

I really like CORPS, TimeLords, and WarpWorld. I would like to play these someday, especially WarpWorld.

[Enpeze]

I'm curious to know people's experience with or thoughts on houseruling a "finesse" damage bonus. That is, where the core STR + SIZ damage bonus die represents additional damage from power-type attacks, this one would represent accuracy/finesse-based damage bonus.

Using the same scale as the other (i.e. 25-32= +1d4 et al), perhaps certain types of weapons (rapiers, daggers) would receive a bonus damage die based upon, say, DEX + INT. This finesse damage bonus might include missile weapons, as well.

My first thought on balance issues would be that one could only apply one or the other--i.e. an attack with a rapier would not also get the STR+SIZ damage bonus--only the DEX+INT one.

Just brainstorming at the moment.

EDIT: I realize the Impale is the core approach to the spirit of what I'm proposing, and so a finesse damage bonus die AND the possiblity of an Impale might be too much. Perhaps the finesse damage bonus would replace the Impale rules....

I would rather give such special weapons like rapiers a simple bonus on initiative (like +3) and maybe a lower STR, higher DEX requirement, but not a damage bonus. Ever seen the movie Rob Roy?

If you like it more complex you can maybe introduce fencing with rapiers as "style" like martial arts. (as Nightshade I guess has already proposed) or use some advanced riposte rules.

[Atgxtg]

Yeah, Greg Porter and BTRC (Blackburg Tactical Research Center) have produced quality RPG products for years now.

I just could never find anyone in my gaming circle willing to try new RPG games/products. It's a crying shame that most gamers get 'set' in their system/products.

I really like CORPS, TimeLords, and WarpWorld. I would like to play these someday, especially WarpWorld.

Tell me about it. For decades I ran many, many different RPGs (I think my RPG experience probably rivals the one in your intro), yet whenever I got a chance to play, I was usually stuck with D&D, since that is all anyone else was running.

I used to tell my gamers that it was frustrating that I was the guy who picked up these RPGs because I liked them, and yet never got to enjoy an RQ, Pendragon, Timelords, etc. campaign as a player.

I've got some games now that I would just love to play/run, but can't find anything other than D&Ders in the area.

[Nightshade]

Yeah, Greg Porter and BTRC (Blackburg Tactical Research Center) have produced quality RPG products for years now.

I just could never find anyone in my gaming circle willing to try new RPG games/products. It's a crying shame that most gamers get 'set' in their system/products.

I really like CORPS, TimeLords, and WarpWorld. I would like to play these someday, especially WarpWorld.

I ran TimeLords for a while. Other than the fact it had some death spiral effects that I no longer think are realistic, the only other part of the system that was somewhat painful was the phasing system; it was based on Hero's, but there were a lot of complications that made it hard to deal with. The other parts of the game, though they look complicated, don't really turn out to be that bad in play.

[Kloster]

I would rather give such special weapons like rapiers a simple bonus on initiative (like +3) and maybe a lower STR, higher DEX requirement, but not a damage bonus. Ever seen the movie Rob Roy?

If you like it more complex you can maybe introduce fencing with rapiers as "style" like martial arts. (as Nightshade I guess has already proposed) or use some advanced riposte rules.

As an ex-fencer (foil and epee), I woleheartedly agree.

'Land of Ninja' proposes a kind of rules for that with the ki-skills.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[drohem]

Ever seen the movie Rob Roy?

"Life is but a dungheap..." Archibald

Archibald is one of my favorite dandy villians!