Cattle raids

[Doug]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

How often do you think an typical clan cattle raids? About once yearly in Fire Season?

In KoDP I cattle raid most seasons.

A lot if raiding depends on circumstances. Personalities of the ring, size of your current herd, how beat up are your weapon thanes, how often you've been raided lately, etc.

So, established and stable clans trade so they only raid once or twice a year. War clans, clans trying to make a name for themselves, and those on the edge of collapse raid more often. I don't think there is an upper limit, but your neighbors will react by posting more guards or counter raiding, so there will be diminishing returns, even if you get really good at it.

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Doug said:

I think everyone is heavily armed whenever leaving the tula. Who knows what bandits and monsters lurk in the wilds.

The problem with a shield is that it's big, bulky and heavy, and would get tossed if you have to run away (hence "come back with your shield or on it"). So I can see the argument - if you get caught out on a cattle raid, you have to run.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, Doug said:

So, established and stable clans trade so they only raid once or twice a year. War clans, clans trying to make a name for themselves, and those on the edge of collapse raid more often.

We should distinguish between cattle raids and other raids here, too. The non-cattle kind will tend to be nastier, bloodier and a far bigger deal, and the War clan will definitely do more of that.

[Doug]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

We should distinguish between cattle raids and other raids here, too. The non-cattle kind will tend to be nastier, bloodier and a far bigger deal, and the War clan will definitely do more of that.

War clans have poorer crops and more agressive and armed people. Unless they've been hiring out as mercs, raids (cattle or otherwise) is about all the warriors can do to contribute to the clan. Life in Sartar is hard, and supporting a bunch of deadweight warriors isn't viable. Sure, everyone helps with the harvest, but farmers do that better.

[Doug]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The problem with a shield is that it's big, bulky and heavy, and would get tossed if you have to run away (hence "come back with your shield or on it"). So I can see the argument - if you get caught out on a cattle raid, you have to run.

I can understand not taking a shield if you need both hands to herd the stolen cows. I don't know enough to say if a slung shield would get in the way of being a cowboy.

I think that quote is about not being a coward. Saving the cost of the shield never crossed my mind.

FWIW: I think that quote is very Ernaldan. The priestesses might not like all the fighting and feuding of the men folk, but a reputation of cowardice will paint a target on the whole clan. Better to lose a few than have the entire clan threatened.

[Akhôrahil]

17 minutes ago, Doug said:

I think that quote is about not being a coward.

Yes of course, but it illustrates that ditching your shield when you run away is standard. You probably leave any metal leg greaves at home as well, because I cannot imagine that running in them is much fun.

And considering that a medium wooden shield costs 60% of the value of a cow (!!), tossing several of them during a retreat makes a significant economic impact on the raid.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Brootse]

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes of course, but it illustrates that ditching your shield when you run away is standard. You probably leave any metal leg greaves at home as well, because I cannot imagine that running in them is much fun.

And considering that a medium wooden shield costs 60% of the value of a cow (!!), tossing several of them during a retreat makes a significant economic impact on the raid.

I use houserules for movement and encumbrance, so ditching greaves and shields is a valid option in many situations.

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 hours ago, Doug said:

War clans have poorer crops and more agressive and armed people. Unless they've been hiring out as mercs, raids (cattle or otherwise) is about all the warriors can do to contribute to the clan. Life in Sartar is hard, and supporting a bunch of deadweight warriors isn't viable. Sure, everyone helps with the harvest, but farmers do that better.

Farmers are generally warriors and warriors are generally farmers, barring the odd full-time warrior retainer, imho. I realize there are some who specialize more deeply (Barntari, etc.), but the whole peace clan - war clan thing sounds more like a game mechanic to me than a viable in-universe dichotomy, unless of course it's one that's more culturally symbolic than anything (but fantasy universes generally prefer to take symbolism and turn it into literal stuff, so I suppose there's that.).

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Farmers are generally warriors and warriors are generally farmers, barring the odd full-time warrior retainer, imho. I realize there are some who specialize more deeply (Barntari, etc.), but the whole peace clan - war clan thing sounds more like a game mechanic to me than a viable in-universe dichotomy, unless of course it's one that's more culturally symbolic than anything (but fantasy universes generally prefer to take symbolism and turn it into literal stuff, so I suppose there's that.).

It's probably a matter of degree. The crappier your fields are, the more you have to rely on herding and hunting, and there's a tendency for this to lead to a more warlike nature (if for no other reason than that you're out of options otherwise). The British in India classified some tribes, mostly hill-based ones, as "martial", seeing them as better recruiting grounds for local soldiers due to a stronger martial ethos.

In Glorantha though, this also has an actual impact - if you're a War clan, you focus more on the Death rune than the Life rune, which will make you better fighters and worse farmers. Since so much of clan warfare is raiding, even a larger Peace clan may have troubles bringing its numbers to bear, and paying a reasonable tribute (which they can afford, being better farmers) will make sense for both sides.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Bill the barbarian]

9 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

Was it on your podcast that I heard that it is uncommon to bring shields on cattle raids unless your intention is to actually kill people?

No, I don’t think so. But we did touch on not killing folk, or wounding then badly for that matter

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

No, I don’t think so. But we did touch on not killing folk, or wounding then badly for that matter

When I was GM:ing the QuickStart and the PCs ran into a several corpses during a cattle raid aftermath, they figured that something must be seriously off. This just isn't How Things Are Done.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Alex]

On 1/21/2021 at 9:48 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Farmers are generally warriors and warriors are generally farmers, barring the odd full-time warrior retainer, imho. I realize there are some who specialize more deeply (Barntari, etc.), but the whole peace clan - war clan thing sounds more like a game mechanic to me than a viable in-universe dichotomy, unless of course it's one that's more culturally symbolic than anything (but fantasy universes generally prefer to take symbolism and turn it into literal stuff, so I suppose there's that.).

I guess actually a trichotomy, as there's a 'neither one nor the other' default category (and indeed majority).  ("Balanced" is an especially weak-sounding term, though.)  In-universe this is apparently Heort's doing, so possibly he was just temperamentally very fond of this sort of broad-strokes categorisation.  Or maybe more likely, there was a pragmatic reason to do so.  Like some sort of codification of different views and customs on the matter of violence as a political and economic means.  A 'historic compromise', as it were.