System Design and ownership

[Atgxtg]

These days, there are hundreds of competing RPG systems, many of them free. But the system itself is not the game. What breathes life into dull, dry, confusing rules is the setting, the characters, the sort of genre information that the writers of GURPS and Hero System are so good at providing. And that's what the gaming industry needs more of: creative, well-written, fleshed out role-playing settings to use with all those rules. It seems to me that GORE could well give Chaosium a well-needed shot in the arm and kick in the pants by providing more material and attracting new players.

I think it is a combination of system and setting. For instance, D&D has done up supplments to cover many different settings, including historical ones, and literary tie ins. In general, settings have not done well for D&D. IMO, that's because the system makes the settings play the same. Most historical, literary, or even mythical settings don't work right with D&D's massive healing, and raise dead spells. I've seen good settings ruined by the wrong systems, and good systems ruined by the wrong setting.

That said, I do think Chaosium does need to get active and do something. I think (or at least hope) that BRP is a sign of that. The company has made some missteps and, like most of the RPG companies, gotten slammed by CCGs, d20, and even computer RPGs-not to mention splitting off into separate companies and losing practically everyone who used to write stuff for them when they were a major player in the field.

I think blaming GORE is inaccurate, and a bit late. In the old days, games like Other Suns and Privateers & Gentlemen really did a swipe job on RQ, yet no one was crying foul. Chaosium was confident, and able, to beat competitors with quality. That is really the right solution today. Problem is, Chasoium hasn't produced a new RPG in something like 13 years.

[soltakss]

But using your reasoning, if someone steals something of yours, should we care?

Not particularly.

[Lord Twig]

I would agree that most licensed settings would not work well with D&D, or more specifically, the D20 system. But I don't thing it is accurate to say that settings have not done well for D&D.

Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Ebberon may be remarkably similar in many respects, but they where not forced to fit the D&D paradigm. They were designed from the ground up to fit D&D. Subtle but important difference. They were not forced to fit, they were custom designed to fit, and they have all been incredibly popular. (Note: I fully realize that Popular does not always equal Good.)

By contrast WotC managed to get the StarWars license and instead of forcing StarWars to fit D&D, they changed their rules to fit StarWars. It is still class and level, but there is a whole lot of flexibility in each class. Equipment is not that important. They made changes so that lightly armored Rebels had a chance against the heavily armed and armored Stormtroopers. While not terribly realistic, it is true to the source. They changed the damage system. Added a new system for Force powers. Really they did a lot to make the game fit the setting.

As for what Chaosium should do, I think they should design their own campaign world from the ground up. Basically do exactly the same as D&D and create a world that fits their system. It would be quite different from any D&D settings just because of the differences between the two systems. This would allow them to highlight the system's strengths and would not require a major re-tooling to get it to fit someone else's preconceived setting.

[Atgxtg]

Not particularly.

Well, at least your being fair and consistent.

[Atgxtg]

I would agree that most licensed settings would not work well with D&D, or more specifically, the D20 system. But I don't thing it is accurate to say that settings have not done well for D&D.

Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Ebberon may be remarkably similar in many respects, but they where not forced to fit the D&D paradigm. They were designed from the ground up to fit D&D. Subtle but important difference. They were not forced to fit, they were custom designed to fit, and they have all been incredibly popular. (Note: I fully realize that Popular does not always equal Good.)

Greyhawk was the orginal D&D campaign. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms share the same dieties and a lot more. I don't consider them successful settings really, so much as more sources for new spells and prestige classes (prestige classes are the D&D equivalent to a CCG). Dragonlance was probably the most successful of TSR's settings, and one that didn't fit into the D&D rules, but got shoehorned.

By contrast WotC managed to get the StarWars license and instead of forcing StarWars to fit D&D, they changed their rules to fit StarWars. It is still class and level, but there is a whole lot of flexibility in each class. Equipment is not that important. They made changes so that lightly armored Rebels had a chance against the heavily armed and armored Stormtroopers. While not terribly realistic, it is true to the source. They changed the damage system. Added a new system for Force powers. Really they did a lot to make the game fit the setting.

Any changes between Star Wars d20 and the typical D20 stuff was due to the wise move of hiring BIll Slavisek who had worked on the d6 Star Wars to write the game. It is still shoehorned to the D&D rules, but is probably as far as they have pushed away from the old AC/HP methods. But, the latest edition of the Star Wars rules has changed that, basically returning to something closer to D&D, with characters have lots of hit points. Skills are being simplied back to "non-weapon proficency" levels. Interstingly enough, it looks like the new edition of Star Wars will be the basis for the 4th edition D&D rules

As for what Chaosium should do, I think they should design their own campaign world from the ground up. Basically do exactly the same as D&D and create a world that fits their system. It would be quite different from any D&D settings just because of the differences between the two systems. This would allow them to highlight the system's strengths and would not require a major re-tooling to get it to fit someone else's preconceived setting.

I agree. At least design one custom world. TV, film and literary tie-ins are good, but I think they will need a rich campaign world to promote BRP. RQ2 had Glorantha. I hope they have something for BRP. Even a Mythic Europe wouldn't be bad, if it gets enough coverage to make it viable. I think one thing that hurt RQ3 was that it didn't really have a game world. Glorthana was half-heartedly supported at first, and while the Vikings box set was good, it wasn't enough to run an entire "Mythic Europe" on.

[Jason D]

Interstingly enough, it looks like the new edition of Star Wars will be the basis for the 4th edition D&D rules

Not quite accurate.

Star Wars Saga Edition was based on the in-development version of D&D 4th edition. If anything, it's a sneak-preview of 4E, and the D&D designers are using it as a beta-test for some of the new mechanics.

[Trifletraxor]

Problem is, Chasoium hasn't produced a new RPG in something like 13 years.

As for what Chaosium should do, I think they should design their own campaign world from the ground up.

Two VERY good points here. :cool:

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

That is what is building up the tension.

Can the modern Chaosium recapture the magic (or make some magic of their own) to breath new life into the system?

We all are hoping they can, but it's like seeing if an athlete or performer can make a comeback after a career threatening injury. Maybe more like is the offspring can fill the parent's shoes. I doubt there will be many people who worked on BRP stuff in the past writing stuff for the new line.

Still we're all rooting for BRP! :thumb:

[drohem]

Hey, Silvester Stalone can make another John Rambo movie, then anything is possible.

[Atgxtg]

Hey, Silvester Stalone can make another John Rambo movie, then anything is possible.

RAMBO

the Role-Playing Game

:eek: :eek:

:eek: :eek:

:eek: :eek:

P.S> I wish I had thought of Rambo for my anti-OGL posts. Just the threat could be enough.

[Lord Twig]

Greyhawk was the orginal D&D campaign. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms share the same dieties and a lot more. I don't consider them successful settings really, so much as more sources for new spells and prestige classes (prestige classes are the D&D equivalent to a CCG). Dragonlance was probably the most successful of TSR's settings, and one that didn't fit into the D&D rules, but got shoehorned.

I think we are working with different definitions of "successful". Dragonlance was good, and certainly more original, but as a game world it actually fell rather flat. The fact that the characters from the books solved every major crisis was a problem when you rolled up your characters and were ready to save the world. :ohwell:

I was talking about successful from a business point of view. Forgotten realms, Greyhawk, and now Ebberon, have sold very well and are therefore successful by that definition.

[Atgxtg]

I think we are working with different definitions of "successful". Dragonlance was good, and certainly more original, but as a game world it actually fell rather flat. The fact that the characters from the books solved every major crisis was a problem when you rolled up your characters and were ready to save the world. :ohwell:

I was talking about successful from a business point of view. Forgotten realms, Greyhawk, and now Ebberon, have sold very well and are therefore successful by that definition.

Dragonlance was successful, both as a fictional line and got it's own RPG and Spin off supplments (SAGA).

What killed it, was WotC's decision to drop all of thier alternate RPG lines in favor of supporting d20, Along with the statment that the hobby would best be served by having only one game system: d20. I disagree that the "hobby" would be best served by one system, although I believe WotC would be best served if d20 was the only game system.

Of course "successful" within the RPG hobby is sort of tough to define. Many D&D flops have outsold many "unsuccessful" hit games. AEG and Chaoisum have both commented on why they have dipped into the d20 market, noting that one d20 product can finace several non-d20 products.

[Lord Twig]

Dragonlance was successful, both as a fictional line and got it's own RPG and Spin off supplments (SAGA).

Were Dragonlance fiction books were successful? yes. Did Dragonlance have RPG and supplements? Yes. Was the Dragonlance RPG successful? No. At least not compared to GH and FR.

What killed it, was WotC's decision to drop all of thier alternate RPG lines in favor of supporting d20, Along with the statment that the hobby would best be served by having only one game system: d20. I disagree that the "hobby" would be best served by one system, although I believe WotC would be best served if d20 was the only game system.

WotC did put out a campaign book for Dragonlance D20. It just didn't sell well enough to continue to support. I think I got the book at 80% off when they closed the WotC/Game Keeper stores. (Damn Hasbro!)

Of course "successful" within the RPG hobby is sort of tough to define. Many D&D flops have outsold many "unsuccessful" hit games. AEG and Chaoisum have both commented on why they have dipped into the d20 market, noting that one d20 product can finace several non-d20 products.

Indeed, "successful" is a relative term. So I can not understand how you can say that D&D settings are not successful. Compared to every setting ever produced, for any RPG ever, FR has out sold them all. How is that not successful?

[Atgxtg]

Indeed, "successful" is a relative term. So I can not understand how you can say that D&D settings are not successful. Compared to every setting ever produced, for any RPG ever, FR has out sold them all. How is that not successful?

In two ways. First D&D settings don';t seem to have the sort of following that other setting specific RPGs have. Star Wars being the exception.

Secondly, success is relative, and D&D setting books don't seem to sell as well as other types of supplements. From the sales vs. non d20 games viewpoint, everything that WotC makes is "successful" compared to most other RPGs. I suspect that even d20 Dragonlance (I didn't even know they relaucnhed it for the new edition) lackluster sales is probably more than what most other RPGs companies achieve with thier successes. How successful are such lines compared to the sales of other D&D products?

In a similar example, when Decipher entered the RPG market a few years back, the game designers were pleased with the sales of the LOTR and Star Trek RPGs, and commented on just how high the sales figures were. Decipher's management, however, considered the RPG lines unsuccessful, as they didn't sell at the rate that the D&D core books were selling.

Also, has FR really outsold every RPG setting produced, ever? I'd think White Wolf's World of Darkness line has outsold FR. Only a small number of D&D books are FR, while nearly every White Wolf product up to the relaunching of their lines was part of WoD. I'd also think that based on quantity of products produced WoD is more successful (as would a few other settings).

[GreatBear]

In the old days, games like Other Suns and Privateers & Gentlemen really did a swipe job on RQ, yet no one was crying foul.

Both games were announced as Chaosium products in an early issue of Different Worlds IIRC. It was probably a case of Chaosium being unable/unwilling to publish them that saw them released by FGU. I think rather that say it was a swipe job it would be more fair to cite this as an early example of Chaosium's lax attitude to their IP.

For the record while game rules cannot be protected by copyright, they can be patented. WotC applied for and got a patent for several of the key game mechanics in MtG. If any of the early RPG publishers had gone this route, the hobby would be very different today.

[Atgxtg]

Both games were announced as Chaosium products in an early issue of Different Worlds IIRC. It was probably a case of Chaosium being unable/unwilling to publish them that saw them released by FGU. I think rather that say it was a swipe job it would be more fair to cite this as an early example of Chaosium's lax attitude to their IP.

Probably not so much lax, and friendlier. Back in the early days, the RPG community was just that, a community. Rather than trying to get rule systems to themselves, most early game designers were proud of what they did and were eagerly showing things off to others, and genuinely pleased when someone incoprated one of thier rules into an RPG.

TSR was the exception. When Gygax took control, he was going for the money.

The same thing with the literary tie-ins. Michale Moorcock gave both Chasoium AND TSR permission to use his works for RPGs in that light. As the hooby evolved/mutated into more of a business this started to fade away and get replaced with a more corporate approach.

For the record while game rules cannot be protected by copyright, they can be patented. WotC applied for and got a patent for several of the key game mechanics in MtG. If any of the early RPG publishers had gone this route, the hobby would be very different today.

I think WotC patented certain terms (like tapping) rather than actually mechanics (tilting/rotating a card). I doubt such a tactic would have had much impact on most RPGs, since you can't patent rolling dice. You probably could patent specialty dice, so systems like FUDGE probably could have locked some stuff down if they wanted to.

I doubt there is enough money in the RPG field to make the idea feasible, though. Especially for the early RPG makers. Most companies carved out a marginal existence as it was. throwing in the costs of patents would have broken anyone except, perhaps TSR.

Then there is the expense of actually suing a company for patent infringement. If you notice, patents only seem to be effective if a big company holds it. If a small company owns it, then the big companies will get a knock off in the stores by the end of the year, and get away with it. In the RPG field, I suspect that if companies like Chaosium or FGU went after each other, the suing would probably go bankrupt first.

With Mtg, the situation is different. MtG generates more money that probably the entire RPG market, so some patents were affordable. Even then, they didn't stop the flood of CCGs.

[GreatBear]

I doubt there is enough money in the RPG field to make the idea feasible

That's not my point.

The title of the thread is "System Ownership" and I'm trying to point out the legal basis for owning something like a "system" doesn't rest in copyright law, trademarks, etc. If you want to secure ownership of a design you patent it.

I think WotC patented certain terms (like tapping) rather than actually mechanics (tilting/rotating a card).

You can't patent a "term". But I bet Tapping is trademarked by WotC. Hasbro/WotC applied for and was granted patents from the US Patents office on the game mechanics of MtG and CCGs in general. I heard this directly from Pete Atkinson at the GAMA trade show back in the day (1997 Collectible card game - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

I stand by what I said. If the early RPGers had patented their designs, things would be different. I think we'd have a smaller selection of systems but with much wider variety in mechanics. It might have been a good thing. We probably would have avoided such "D&D on steroids" games as Rolemaster and Palladium. But we might never have gotten Call of Cthulhu or RQ either.

[Atgxtg]

That's not my point.

The title of the thread is "System Ownership" and I'm trying to point out the legal basis for owning something like a "system" doesn't rest in copyright law, trademarks, etc. If you want to secure ownership of a design you patent it.

Okay, I see you point. Fronm an ownerships standpoint a possibility, but from an enforcement standpoint I think it's not viable.

True enough for "tapping".

However, I wonder just what sort of patent WotC has on CCGs in general. Obviously they don't have complete CCG control, as there are other CCGs on the market.

I disagree. Most of the early companies didn't have deep enough pockets to afford a patent and so would either not bother to secure patents, or not publish.

I think we'd have ended up with one RPG, D&D.Basically no one else had the bucks to patent stuff back then, most companies still don't. It probably wouldn't be a very good D&D either, since most of the alterations and improvements came from fans and all the D&D clones and competitors.

What few competitors that might have gotten published probably wouldn't have been patented (for financial reasons, Chasoium couldn't have afforded to sue someone even if they did violate a patent), and knowing TSR, they would probably have used similar mechanics in an RPG and then patented a competitors game system and buried it.

[GreatBear]

Patents applications are cheap. You can file a patent application for less than a couple hundred bucks IIRC. But who knew back then it might have been worth it. Legal action in the RPG industry is not unheard of. TSR went after Gygax's Dangerous Journeys and Palladium used to threaten legal action against anybody that even refered to their games.

But I agree it's quite possible we would have ended up with one game system and not a very good one as you say - but that's exact what we have in d20 in my opinion. That's why I'm looking forward so much to BRP.

It's too bad Chaosium never had the backing to go bigger. At the time they sold of RQ to AH they seemed like they were poised for greatness. But alas AH kept RQ off the market for about 2 years (while doing a couple RPGs of their own) and Chaosium never had anything else except Cthulhu that had any staying power. I sure hope BRP opens some doors because I can't see Chaosium continuing much longer as the "boutique" publisher they have become.

[Atgxtg]

Patents applications are cheap. You can file a patent application for less than a couple hundred bucks IIRC. But who knew back then it might have been worth it. Legal action in the RPG industry is not unheard of. TSR went after Gygax's Dangerous Journeys and Palladium used to threaten legal action against anybody that even refered to their games.

But I agree it's quite possible we would have ended up with one game system and not a very good one as you say - but that's exact what we have in d20 in my opinion. That's why I'm looking forward so much to BRP.

It's too bad Chaosium never had the backing to go bigger. At the time they sold of RQ to AH they seemed like they were poised for greatness. But alas AH kept RQ off the market for about 2 years (while doing a couple RPGs of their own) and Chaosium never had anything else except Cthulhu that had any staying power. I sure hope BRP opens some doors because I can't see Chaosium continuing much longer as the "boutique" publisher they have become.

Ah a couple of hundred buck was/is a lotta money for most RPG companies. Plus the big expense isn't the patent but protecting it. Once someone infringes on the patent, it is up to the holder to poney up the money to pay the legal costs.

Yeah, TSR went after Dangerous Journeys. Unfairly too, IMO. The game is certainly more different from AD&D than, say Palladium, and TSR didn't go after them. But there was a lot of bad blood between Gygax, and his former co-workers at TSR.

As for Palladium, the general consensus from those I've talked to is that is that Keven Siembieda is a jerk. Considering how heavily D&D "influenced" the Palladium RPG, he is really the last one to talk about IP.

I agree that d20/"the one system" seems to be the way the mainstream RPG market is going. But, so what? It was like this when I got into the hobby, with other RPGs existingon the fringes, and it's that way again. These days with have the intert, PDF, desktop publishing, and a ton of indie games. It's a shame that RQ, DQ, and other games faded into obscurity. It a shame that the AH deal virtually killed off the 2nd most popular RPG at the time. It was the wrong move for all the right reasons. Had it went the way Greg had expected when he made the Deal, Chasoium would probably be the #2 RPG company today, and RQ the second most popular system.

I think it is time for Chasoium to either get back into the industry or shut down. The big split a few years back, with Hero Wars/Glorantha, and Pendragon going off to new companies didn't help (They were the only products besides CoC that had successful product lines-and still do). I think BRP is either going to remake them or be their "last hurrah". While I think that they can exist indefinitely as a "boutique" publisher, I don't see them making any impact or growing by doing so.

[Nightshade]

Both games were announced as Chaosium products in an early issue of Different Worlds IIRC. It was probably a case of Chaosium being unable/unwilling to publish them that saw them released by FGU. I think rather that say it was a swipe job it would be more fair to cite this as an early example of Chaosium's lax attitude to their IP.

There were as I recall serious editorial differences between Chaosium and Nicolai Shapero at least.

For the record while game rules cannot be protected by copyright, they can be patented. WotC applied for and got a patent for several of the key game mechanics in MtG. If any of the early RPG publishers had gone this route, the hobby would be very different today.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread. However, its not clear whether any of the mechanics would have survived the necessary uniqueness and utility tests.

[Atgxtg]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread. However, its not clear whether any of the mechanics would have survived the necessary uniqueness and utility tests.

Especially considering the influence of board and wargames on the development of RPGs. D&D was built upon chainmail, which drew from many other wargames that came before it.

[Jason D]

I agree that d20/"the one system" seems to be the way the mainstream RPG market is going. But, so what?

I'm uncertain about the dominance of d20 with the announcement of D&D 4th edition. My gut feeling is that the current "wait and see" period will drive a lot of the smaller publishers out of business, and will drive the middle-sized guys into doing their own systems and becoming less reliant on the OGL. I'm already seeing this manifest in the number of companies eager to liquidate d20 and making no announcements about 4th edition products, but trumpeting their own systems more and more.

I think it is time for Chasoium to either get back into the industry or shut down. The big split a few years back, with Hero Wars/Glorantha, and Pendragon going off to new companies didn't help (They were the only products besides CoC that had successful product lines-and still do). I think BRP is either going to remake them or be their "last hurrah". While I think that they can exist indefinitely as a "boutique" publisher, I don't see them making any impact or growing by doing so.

Regardless of BRP, you've got to realize that Call of Cthulhu (game and fiction lines) has been their bread and butter for something like 25 years, long after other game lines have come and gone. It has kept them afloat through hard times, continues to sell reliably, and is the company's most valuable asset.

I don't see them as "betting the farm" with BRP... it's more a case of allowing themselves the option of having more to their catalog than just Call of Cthulhu. Chaosium once published games in wealth of settings (fantasy, sword-and-sorcery, science fiction, super heroics, etc.), and the BRP core book allows them to set themselves up to do so again.

[Atgxtg]

I'm uncertain about the dominance of d20 with the announcement of D&D 4th edition. My gut feeling is that the current "wait and see" period will drive a lot of the smaller publishers out of business, and will drive the middle-sized guys into doing their own systems and becoming less reliant on the OGL. I'm already seeing this manifest in the number of companies eager to liquidate d20 and making no announcements about 4th edition products, but trumpeting their own systems more and more.

Yup. Funny thing is, lots of people saw this coming back when D&D 3.0 was released. Going d20 OGL puts publishers at the mercy of WotC. WotC could at anytime work up a new edition or even one that isn't OGL. Third party producers could continue to support a previous OGL release, but since most D&Ders will probably follow the latest, greatest edition of the rules, chances are third party support would die off. Frankly I expect D&D 5.0, or 6.0 to go that route and wipe out a lot of third party competitors.

I think the whole idea with OGL was to pull a Mircosoft and make d20 the RPG equivalent to Windows.

Regardless of BRP, you've got to realize that Call of Cthulhu (game and fiction lines) has been their bread and butter for something like 25 years, long after other game lines have come and gone. It has kept them afloat through hard times, continues to sell reliably, and is the company's most valuable asset.

Oh, I realize it, but I also think that CoC also cost them market share. If someone isn't a H,P. Lovecraft fan, CoC has nothing to draw them in. Horror is't one of the most poplular genres in RPGs, and Lovecraftian hoor is a niche within a niche within a hooby that is itself a niche. CoC might have kept Chaosium alive, but that's all.

I don't see them as "betting the farm" with BRP... it's more a case of allowing themselves the option of having more to their catalog than just Call of Cthulhu. Chaosium once published games in wealth of settings (fantasy, sword-and-sorcery, science fiction, super heroics, etc.), and the BRP core book allows them to set themselves up to do so again.

Me neither. More like "testing the waters" Plus getting some sort of backup for the day when CoC's popularity wanes, which I supsect has already started to arrive with the introduction of variant settings and some non-Chasoium/BRP Chtulhu Mythos RPGs.

Metaphoically speaking, right now if Cthulhu sinks beneath the waves, so would Chaosium. Having a couple of alternatives gives them some sort of "life perservers".

To be fair, IMO, most of the the missteps Chaosium made happened 15-20+ years ago. The Avalon Hill deal, failure to support Stormbringer, WoW or put out another Fantasy RPG, all ancient history. The rise of CCGs, CRPGs, and d20 OGL all played a part in Chasoium current situation, but were things beyond the company's control.

[Nightshade]

Yup. Funny thing is, lots of people saw this coming back when D&D 3.0 was released. Going d20 OGL puts publishers at the mercy of WotC. WotC could at anytime work up a new edition or even one that isn't OGL. Third party producers could continue to support a previous OGL release, but since most D&Ders will probably follow the latest, greatest edition of the rules, chances are third party support would die off. Frankly I expect D&D 5.0, or 6.0 to go that route and wipe out a lot of third party competitors.

It doesn't honestly matter that much to most of them unless they have evergreens; and that's uncommon in the RPG marketplace. Really successful OGL standalones have typically already carved out their own market (M&M and its kin come to mind); less successful were usually transient phenomena anyway. The only issue is with companies that have kept doing nothing but D20/OGL products coattailing on D&D or D20 Modern, and there haven't been that many of those that have had a long lifespan anyway. Those that have have plenty of time to try and work out a new business model. If they only could make a living doing OGL/D20, chances are they weren't really competitors in any meaningful sense with WOTC anyway; they were probably symbionts.

I'm not saying there's not a few people who might not have been sapping some WOTC revenue stream that will be effected by this, but I'd be _very_ suprised if most of those who go under were really harming WOTC in any meaningful way.