Market fees

[Squaredeal Sten]

Market fees:  The Travels of Biturian Varosh reflects that a merchant (or anyone else) selling in an organized market must pay a fee for the privilege.

(Cults of Prax p.39, "Having viewed the market, I went to its High Priest and bought a booth site. He grumbled about my payment with furs, but I didn't get to choose my location either. "  and p.59 " merely demanding that he fulfill his traders' obligation and sell me a place upon which to display my goods. He did what he had to do.  He gave me the worst spot, a soggy plot near the latrines.")

GMs: Do you have a merchant(s) in your campaign?  if so, do you set that market fee, and if so how?  Or do you gloss over it?

Biturian appears to have paid a fee - but no indication of what it actually was.

It seems to me that such a fee is how the Issaries or Etyries temple / market is kept up: Someone probably has to pay for casting  the Market rune spell - and at a fixed market / temple in a city, it's probably income for the priest who runs the market.

Do you run it per-site, so many square meters?  Does Biturian the rich merchant pay the same as a farmer selling carrots?

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

Loose thoughts:

1. If you're at least a Lay Member of a cult running the market, perhaps any market fees may go towards your cult cost percentage, and hence don't need to be tracked separately from cult expenditure? (Note that the 20% land cost to temple for farms does count towards Orlanth/Ernalda cult expenditures.)

2. Possibly market fees only need to be tracked separately from tolls when it's not inside a walled town or city where you pay the tolls instead and then have market access?

3. If neither, perhaps 1% of goods brought? Although it seems that this gets negotiated on a per-case basis - the market would be ruled by supply and demand the same way anything else is. Almost full already? Expect that last spot to cost you!

[Kloster]

I count that by being part of the tithe to Issaries/Etyries; The more they sell, the more they tithe to the cult. If the market is run by another cult, the merchant pay his tithe to both cults (10% to each if he is an initiate, 90% to his cult and 10% of the remaining if he his of a rune level rank).

[French Desperate WindChild]

- If the merchant is in her usual location (so directly under her temple's responsability) I don't add any fee: the cult tithe is enough

- If the merchant is under another temple juridiction from the same cult (an issaries merchant in an issaries market, an etyries merchant in an etyries market)

I (the local priest) ask for 10% directly here and now (of course 10% of the value traded here and now, not the full year). What is paid is paid for the god, so the merchant reduces this amount of the tithe paid to her temple

 

- If the merchant is under another temple juridiction from another cult (an issaries merchant in an etyries market)

I (the local priest) ask for a fee depending on the local politic (10% 20% 50%....). I don't consider this fee as a portion of the merchant's god tithe.

 

 

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Market fees:  The Travels of Biturian Varosh reflects that a merchant (or anyone else) selling in an organized market must pay a fee for the privilege.

(Cults of Prax p.39, "Having viewed the market, I went to its High Priest and bought a booth site. He grumbled about my payment with furs, but I didn't get to choose my location either. "  and p.59 " merely demanding that he fulfill his traders' obligation and sell me a place upon which to display my goods. He did what he had to do.  He gave me the worst spot, a soggy plot near the latrines.")

GMs: Do you have a merchant(s) in your campaign?  if so, do you set that market fee, and if so how?  Or do you gloss over it?

Biturian appears to have paid a fee - but no indication of what it actually was.

It seems to me that such a fee is how the Issaries or Etyries temple / market is kept up: Someone probably has to pay for casting  the Market rune spell - and at a fixed market / temple in a city, it's probably income for the priest who runs the market.

Do you run it per-site, so many square meters?  Does Biturian the rich merchant pay the same as a farmer selling carrots?

It is a reasonable question Sten, but it is also a bit like asking "How long is a piece of string?".  In some places there will be no fee, and in others where space is at a premium it can be very expensive.

Note that in the Biturian Varosh example, he is in the tiny Lunar (shit-hole swamp) settlement of Corflu, and he is dealing with an obnoxious Etyries merchant who is likely trying to gouge poor old Viturian because he follows the Lightbringers, not the Lunar pantheon.  Most people would likely pay for a lot at the Corflu market with phlegm, but this is Biturian's first time, and it coincides with a period when Corlfu is being developed as the Lunar Empire's "great port city" by Sor-Eel the Short (a nice enough crook, all told) in one of the greatest scams in the history of the Empire.

Does Biturian pay more than a Spare Grain Laymember with a sack of carrots?  Yes, but it is called his cult tithe.  He doesn't pay more for a spot in the market.  That is set at a fixed rate, as it is not a tax.  A high priest of Issaries will not want to charge people, and will instead be able to run his temple expenses entirely by understanding his local market and buying cheap/selling dear.  No merchant likes taxes, and they will be reluctant to try to enforce such, as it will lead to merchants not displaying their full wares, or avoiding the market altogether.

Markets are divided into plots of a roughly equal size.  If you have a lot of goods to sell you may need to buy the use of multiple plots.  Some plots may actually be permanent booths with walls, a roof, and a rear section for storing goods.  Plots on the main thoroughfare through the market will cost more.  The market itself will likely also be divided into specific sections, with odorous goods (fish, livestock) being confined to being downwind, for example.

It is worth noting that in Medieval Europe different settlements had a differing frequency of markets and fairs that were controlled by a royal system of charter.  Villages could have a seasonal fair, while towns would have a specific market once a week, but some permanent shops, while cities had open markets every day.  This system was introduced so that fairs didn't clash with existing market days at towns and so forth.  While Glorantha obviously isn't medieval Europe, there is an inherrent logic to the system, where village fairs cause farmers to sell produce that will feed into town economies, that in turn will feed into city economies, and then satellite cities will feed into the economies of major cities.  The value of a daily rent for a plot will have more to do with the opportunity cost of its daily use, i.e. we can either run a market stall here or develop the land into a workshop/home/tavern etc. that will make more money.

Try this as a rule of thumb...

Hamlet/Smallish Settlement/Village... Free with permission.  Perhaps 1 clack for a plot.

Town or Oasis... 1 clack per plot minimum.  Possible weekly discount.  You might still be able to get a free plot if you know a friendly local shop owner who will let you park on their land i.e. under their window on the outskirts of the official market.

Small City...  plots cost different rates.  You can still get a plot for a clack, but some plots will cost even 5L per day on the main thoroughfare.  There may even be different markets in different parts of the town.

Medium city.  These come in 2 flavors, the growing and the declining city.  Growing medium cities tend to be lean and hungry.  Laws are enforced, and corruption leads to riots.  Declining cities are the opposite.  They are likely sleepy places or were once larger, but are now becoming less important.  The real money has moved on, and the remaining folk are like scavengers squabbling over the carcass.  Corruption is rife. 

Large City/Metropolis.  You can literally buy anything you want, but the mark-ups are excruciating, and the same goes for market plots.  You can likely still get a 1 clack plot, but it will be next to the toilets on the outskirts of the fish market.

That being said, the price of a plot will largely vary according to its amenity.  Ever good Issaries priest knows that it isn't the plot that costs, it is the rent of trestle tables. and awnings that they really gouge you on.

[Ali the Helering]

I think that a great deal depends upon how you understand the 'chain of reverence' working within the cult.  I think a case could be made that both the sale of stall spaces and their purchase could be abstracted as a part of cult 'tithing'.  At an Issaries-run market I would expect to pay a premium if I worshipped a different deity, and vice versa.

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

At an Issaries-run market I would expect to pay a premium if I worshipped a different deity, and vice versa.

I must disagree.  Most cultures maintain strict and important hospitality rules that definitely exist to insure that guests are treated fairly and well, and that extends to traders, whatever their allegiance, unless they are established enemies.  To be seen to be acting in bad faith towards visitors may be acceptable if your cults don't like each other, but in fact this is actually going to be counter-productive as all they will do is raise their prices to cover the extra money you charge them.  Plus it is extremely counterproductive to make your market less attractive to people who have travelled a long way with exotic goods, as they will likely simply take their business elsewhere and you have only succeeded in damaging your own bottom line.

Obviously this doesn't apply to Guilds, who seek to create monopolies, but even they live on the good will of the people they sell to, and while they won't tolerate foreign competition on objects they make, they will never interfere with foreign traders who bring goods that make their city wealthier without jeopardizing their specific monopoly.

Dickering over the clacks it takes to set up a market stand is undignified.  The real money is made in reliable and favorable trade relationships, and that is what trade temples will be interested in.  You don't even want to cut into the returns your peasant with a sack of vegetables will make or she might stop making the trip and then that's one less source of vegetables you can buy.

[Ali the Helering]

25 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I must disagree.  Most cultures maintain strict and important hospitality rules that definitely exist to insure that guests are treated fairly and well, and that extends to traders, whatever their allegiance, unless they are established enemies.  To be seen to be acting in bad faith towards visitors may be acceptable if your cults don't like each other, but in fact this is actually going to be counter-productive as all they will do is raise their prices to cover the extra money you charge them.  Plus it is extremely counterproductive to make your market less attractive to people who have travelled a long way with exotic goods, as they will likely simply take their business elsewhere and you have only succeeded in damaging your own bottom line.

If that were all that was at stake, I would completely agree.  However, implicit to this is the competition for cultic domination of the trade routes.  As such, every disincentive is worth its weight in wheels.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

If that were all that was at stake, I would completely agree.  However, implicit to this is the competition for cultic domination of the trade routes.  As such, every disincentive is worth its weight in wheels.

I’m inclined to agree - it’s only natural that the cult uses power to benefit itself over other ones. The other cults should be lucky it isn’t a monopoly!