Spellcasting tactics

[Nightshade]

Rate of Fire, 1/SR (RQ missile weapons table p.66): Use the weapon on the adventurer's DEX stirke rank., then on his DEX SR+3+Dex SR again.

Example: Arcos the Archer has a DEX SR of 2. He can fire a composite bow on SR2, then he must take 3SR to get another arrow ready and notch it, then fire the second arrow at his DEX SR after than. Thus he will fire at SR1, then at SR 7.

So you get:

DEX SR 3= SR 3/9

DEX SR 2= SR2/7

DEX SR 1= SR1/5/9 (the third shot wasn't expressed stated in RQ3 like it was in RQ2, but is in supplments for high DEX archers.)

Ah. You're correct, though note my caveat when I answered Kloster.

[Atgxtg]

Not really. I still have no sign that you didn't need to prep a spell if you did something else in the round already, and even under our interpetation, it was quite possible for someone to prep at the end of the round if he wanted to try and interrupt the Healer. But was it a useful thing to do? Keep in mind that spirit spells weren't automatic; someone with a 12 Power had a 60% chance minus encumbarances of getting the spell off in the first place, then had to overcome the targets magic points, and the target then had to fail an Int x 3% roll. For fairly middle of the road targets, this meant that on the whole you had maybe one chance in five of actually successfully interrupting his healing, then had to restart your strike ranks to do anything else. Was this really a useful thing to do? Under normal circumstances, my answer would be "no".

That is the difference. We would almost never cast a spell after doing something else. We would either cast it before, or wait until the next round. Since the delay didn't apply if you made a statement in the declaration phase (which was the way we played, as did the other RQ players we knew).

We were running from what we read in the book. If Steve was running it differerntly, there was no way for us to know.

You must have had very large groups of followers; reserves were usually a non-starter in our experience because everyone present was _already_ in the middle of the fight, one way or another, and that usually included any of the few followers that might be present.

Not really. I think it was how we did things. We didn't run into a lot out double and triple teams, since those would butcher anyone who wasn't Rune level. So if possible we would open up a fight in such a way as to get a numerical advantage. Things like mass disrupt on someone, etc.

Plus one guy who gets pumped up with bladesharp, protection and Strength is much nastier than one with each. So we would often work towards getting a numerical edge. Like having two guys attack one guy and just parrying the second.

But at least in our case, not the people doing the healing; it was extremely rare for us to have the luxury of having someone retreat to do that.

We usually did. Sort of went with Glorantha. Those Chalana Arroy healers aren't much use in the fighting, but are great for hanging back and healing people.

You could avoid it completely, but only at the price of a massive cut in your attack value or a delay until the end of the round. The latter is obviously useless for spell interruption.

I never saw it likely to happen until post 100% skill, since you had at least a divisor of one half, and possibly more. No one felt like dealing with fifty percent or more of their hits hitting the wrong target.

I don't know why not. Most fights start at some distance. So if you are walking with a missle weapon ready, you should be able to get off a shot and change weapons before being attacked.

One guy used to carry a heavy crossbow, and when a fight broke out, fire a Speedarted heavy crossbow on SR4 for 2d6+5 damage to open the fight. Then he'd draw his bastard sword and go at it. If he KNEW there was going to be trouble, he had a mulitmissle up. Often he'd get a bonus for shooting into a mass.

Since most attacks in RQ3 came off on SR7, and most foes moved at 3m/SR, unless they were close when they were spotted, he could shot, drop crossbow, draw sword and beat them to the attack on the following round. If his crossbow shot dropped his foe (it usually took out a hit location, and anything other than a arm hit would stop them), he'd double team someone and collapse the enemy line.

If two people had missile weapons ready, one with crossbow and the other with bow, then we'd get the crossbow shot and 2 arrow hits. Generally it wan;t tough to free up somebody.

[Nightshade]

That is the difference. We would almost never cast a spell after doing something else. We would either cast it before, or wait until the next round. Since the delay didn't apply if you made a statement in the declaration phase (which was the way we played, as did the other RQ players we knew).

I'm not denying that it didn't apply if you did it first. I'm still not finding any sign it didn't apply if you, for example, fired a bow and cast a spell.

We were running from what we read in the book. If Steve was running it differerntly, there was no way for us to know.

I don't recall Steve ever asking for declaration, but since I'm also basing that on memories that are now literally decades old, take it with a grain of salt. He probably did have some kind of declaration in SPQR, but then, SPQR doesn't use strike ranks.

Not really. I think it was how we did things. We didn't run into a lot out double and triple teams, since those would butcher anyone who wasn't Rune level. So if possible we would open up a fight in such a way as to get a numerical advantage. Things like mass disrupt on someone, etc.

Just a difference in the style of battles encountered, then.

Plus one guy who gets pumped up with bladesharp, protection and Strength is much nastier than one with each. So we would often work towards getting a numerical edge. Like having two guys attack one guy and just parrying the second.

Oh, it was always attractive if you could do it. We just rarely found you could, unless the battle was pretty much already over (i.e. half the opposition was already down).

We usually did. Sort of went with Glorantha. Those Chalana Arroy healers aren't much use in the fighting, but are great for hanging back and healing people.

I don't think I ever saw a dedicated healer; even those from healing cults locally had enough combat capability to at least hold their own against lesser opponents (and at least one was perfectly capable of braining most opponents after a while because of Bludgeon and her quarterstaff).

I don't know why not. Most fights start at some distance. So if you are walking with a missle weapon ready, you should be able to get off a shot and change weapons before being attacked.

Well, you can if you have visibility. Have to note that's not a given, however, and when it does occur, it applies to everyone pretty much equally.

One guy used to carry a heavy crossbow, and when a fight broke out, fire a Speedarted heavy crossbow on SR4 for 2d6+5 damage to open the fight. Then he'd draw his bastard sword and go at it. If he KNEW there was going to be trouble, he had a mulitmissle up. Often he'd get a bonus for shooting into a mass.

About the only useful way to _use_ a heavy crossbow in my experience; the reload times were way too slow for anything ongoing. The big problem with the above procedure in my experience was getting enough warning to have it all set up at the start.

1d8+1+speedart is as good as what you get with a sword and damage bonus (usualyy a d4). Speedart on a thrown javelin was even worse since you got half your Db.

Javelins _were_ a better choice, but their bulk tended to be a limiter there. And yes, the Speedart boosts it up, but that's one arrow; and frankly one hit wasn't liable particularly likely to put anyone down, certainly not anyone with a shield.

But the real killers were the impales and criticals. Since bows got 2 or 3 attacks per turn, especially for an opening volley, you could drop someone. If

Unless you were really good, this wasn't reliable; even a Speedarted comp bow arrow only had an expected impale damage of 17. That wasn't going to take down anyone who got a shield in the way. Crits would (critical impales were the biggest killers in RQ on the whole) but again, if you can count on crits, you're talking about a _very_ powerful group.

a group was disciplined and the left side shot at the closest guy, and the right and the second closest., you could probably drop a couple three people in the first turn. Especially with Speedart on the first arrow.

There's nothing "probable" about it at routine power levels; given moving targets sliced 10% off, you expected at a 60% (or the equivelent lower with Speeddart) to hit one attack in two; of those about a quarter would likely get a shield parry if the target had one. Since the only of those particularly likely to take someone down were impales, that meant that you couldn't count on that doing anything other than contributing some damage.

1d8+5 or twice that on an implae with 2 shots on the first turn typically had

It wouldn't be on both arrows.

an effect on anybody. Keep in mind that the first arrow shots go off BEFORE most foes get their protection spell up, so 1D8+4 is a significant attack. If the

Then the opposition probably doesn't have their Speedarts up, either. While a typical Protection spell takes longer to put up than a Speedart, a typical Speedart + arrow shot isn't going to take less time than that spell cast.

What single. If you got arrow trance, then you can get or two or three attack per round, and can cast multimissile. If you can't drop someone when you have a doubled attack percentage and 10-15 chances to critcal, there is something wrong.

Given I saw people with very high skills fail to drop people with just Multimissile (and I have no idea where you're getting those crit chances; that would only apply if you had Arrow Trance _and_ already where at or above 100%; if that's the case, there are all kinds of things compareable opponents can do to make everything _but_ the crits trivial.

No argument there. The situation limits your options. When I ran I tried not to run many ambushes because I could usually wipe out the group. If one side is prepared and the other isn't, especially with battle magic, it becomes a very one sided fight. And yeah, tactics work both ways. If you are concentrating on your missile attacks and someone sticks a quarrel into you, you are just as dead.

I'm not talking about ambushes; I'm just talking about cases where you don't have the choice of ground, and have to deal with what's available. That's pretty much the routine case if you're on the offensive.

What after. Statement of Intent. You might not have used it, but that was

Sigh. Let's not do this again. You do the following: "I'm firing a an arrow, then casting a Healing spell on myself." Did or did not the Healing require 3 strike ranks of prep? Even _with_ statement of intent, my reading is that it does, because you were doing something before it in the round.

by the way, that might also be the reason why your fight lasted longer. Without the declaration and using lots of delays meant lots of 3SR penalties and longer fights.

Don't see how it mattered much. Most preps were done at the end of the round anyway, which was usually wasted strike ranks.

So what was everyone doing on turn one? Did the foes just pop up right in sword reach each time?

No, but if you wanted to actually control the battlefield yourself, you often had to move, and that was true of archers as much as anyone else. Unless you just were happy to stand and let fights come to you, what was a problem for one was for another. It also didn't take that long to close from line of fire if you were indoors, in forest, swamp or some sorts of rough. That includes a lot of encounters I've seen over the years there; not all fights take place in sparse forest, plains or deserts.

[Atgxtg]

Nightshade,

BTW, While we these debates do get heated at times, I would like to say that it is a lot more fun disagree with you and the folks here that it is on some other forums.

[frogspawner]

While we these debates do get heated at times, I would like to say that it is a lot more fun disagree with you and the folks here that it is on some other forums.

Sorry, I know it's poor form to post just saying 'Hear, hear!', but "Hear, hear!".

[Atgxtg]

Sorry, I know it's poor form to post just saying 'Hear, hear!', but "Hear, hear!".

I was spoiled. The first RPG based forum I joined was full of courteous, rational people who could disagree without it degenerating into slurs about each other family tree and sexual preferences. I thought that was the norm. Since that time I've seen quite a few places where disagree with someone is tantamount to accepting responsibility for 9/11. Here is realtively tame.

Well, Badcat's as bad as Andakitty [], but otherwise...

[Kloster]

...

You must have had very large groups of followers; reserves were usually a non-starter in our experience because everyone present was _already_ in the middle of the fight, one way or another, and that usually included any of the few followers that might be present.

...

Idem for us. I never had the luxury to have even a single reserve.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

And as I said, I see no point in declaration other than to tell everyone else what you're doing when in fact, I see no reason why they'd know. If you're going to cast a spell then switch to your crossbow and fire, just how does anyone but you know about the latter at the start of the round?

As I said, it serves no valid purpose that I can see and over favors Dexterity, which hardly needs more benefits in RQ.

I agree it favors dexterity.

The advantages I see in the declaration phase are:

1 - Simplicity. This is when the GM notes his SR sheet that he has then to follow. The round is then easy to drive.

2 - Force the player to think fast. The resolution of the 1st strike ranks takes much more time than the timeframe they represent, and if you react along this time, you have too much time to think and to prepare. With the declaration phase, everybody has to think fast.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

...

Not really. I think it was how we did things. We didn't run into a lot out double and triple teams, since those would butcher anyone who wasn't Rune level. So if possible we would open up a fight in such a way as to get a numerical advantage. Things like mass disrupt on someone, etc.

...

In most of the fights I took part, we were outnumbered, and we didn't choose the fights. In those cases, your tactics don't apply.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[soltakss]

2 - Force the player to think fast. The resolution of the 1st strike ranks takes much more time than the timeframe they represent, and if you react along this time, you have too much time to think and to prepare. With the declaration phase, everybody has to think fast.

Think fast? :confused:

My lot couldn't think fast if their lives depended on it.

Even with Statements of Intent, when it comes to their SR, they:

1. Have to work out their attack chance again, even though it was the same as last round

2. Take 5 minutes to decide which combat tactic they are using (ignore armour, strike a location, disarm etc)

3. Rework their attack chance, depending on the tactic chosen

4. Spend 2 minutes finding their dice

5. Spend 2 minutes shaking the dice

6. Spend 2 minutes working out their special chance EVEN THOUGH THEY ROLLED 70

7. Spend 2 minutes finding damage dice and shaking the dice

8. Spend 2 minutes painstakingly adding up the damage

We get through, on average, one combat per session. :mad:

[Kloster]

Think fast? :confused:

My lot couldn't think fast if their lives depended on it.

Even with Statements of Intent, when it comes to their SR, they:

1. Have to work out their attack chance again, even though it was the same as last round

2. Take 5 minutes to decide which combat tactic they are using (ignore armour, strike a location, disarm etc)

3. Rework their attack chance, depending on the tactic chosen

4. Spend 2 minutes finding their dice

5. Spend 2 minutes shaking the dice

6. Spend 2 minutes working out their special chance EVEN THOUGH THEY ROLLED 70

7. Spend 2 minutes finding damage dice and shaking the dice

8. Spend 2 minutes painstakingly adding up the damage

We get through, on average, one combat per session. :mad:

For us, it was more:

GM: Declaration phase. What are you doing?

Player 1: Erh, Ehm,...

GM (10 sec later): OK, nothing. Player 2 please.

Player 2: But, ehm,...

GM (10 sec later): OK, nothing. This NPC does that. Player 3 please.

...

At the 3rd fight, everybody knew to be ready when asked to tell what his character was doing.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Think fast? :confused:

My lot couldn't think fast if their lives depended on it.

Even with Statements of Intent, when it comes to their SR, they:

1. Have to work out their attack chance again, even though it was the same as last round

2. Take 5 minutes to decide which combat tactic they are using (ignore armour, strike a location, disarm etc)

3. Rework their attack chance, depending on the tactic chosen

4. Spend 2 minutes finding their dice

5. Spend 2 minutes shaking the dice

6. Spend 2 minutes working out their special chance EVEN THOUGH THEY ROLLED 70

7. Spend 2 minutes finding damage dice and shaking the dice

8. Spend 2 minutes painstakingly adding up the damage

We get through, on average, one combat per session. :mad:

Of course, some player never change, and I've also lived that kind of problem.

But at least, they have to think fast when to declare (or they don't act).

And to limit this kind of trick, our GM ruled that if a player need more than 10 sec before starting to act when asked to, the action was cancelled. Pretty forced us to be careful to hear what HE was telling.

It is a bit dictatorial, but most players understood the point. After that, he relaxed, but at that point, everything was mostly flowing.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Rurik]

Think fast? :confused:

My lot couldn't think fast if their lives depended on it.

Even with Statements of Intent, when it comes to their SR, they:

1. Have to work out their attack chance again, even though it was the same as last round

2. Take 5 minutes to decide which combat tactic they are using (ignore armour, strike a location, disarm etc)

3. Rework their attack chance, depending on the tactic chosen

4. Spend 2 minutes finding their dice

5. Spend 2 minutes shaking the dice

6. Spend 2 minutes working out their special chance EVEN THOUGH THEY ROLLED 70

7. Spend 2 minutes finding damage dice and shaking the dice

8. Spend 2 minutes painstakingly adding up the damage

We get through, on average, one combat per session. :mad:

Wow. I think my play by post game runs faster than that. :eek:

[Nightshade]

I was spoiled. The first RPG based forum I joined was full of courteous, rational people who could disagree without it degenerating into slurs about each other family tree and sexual preferences. I thought that was the norm. Since that time I've seen quite a few places where disagree with someone is tantamount to accepting responsibility for 9/11. Here is realtively tame.

Well, it doesn't hurt that you don't have much of the cross-system partisanship that crops up on most gaming boards. And possibly the old-fart tendencies here don't hurt either.

[Nightshade]

Idem for us. I never had the luxury to have even a single reserve.

Once in a while I'd see situations where the PCs outnumbered the opposition, but usually it was when fighting some sort of nonhuman monster, where most of the tactics discussed here work radically differently (for better or worse) anyway; you could well have six or eight PCs versus a collection of three wyverns that attacked them along their route to something else. But I'm not sure I remember a single case where the PCs outnumbered a set of humanoid opponents significantly (you might have gotten 8 to 7 kinds of things, but that wasn't going to be significant; and it was more likely to be the other way around).

[Nightshade]

I agree it favors dexterity.

The advantages I see in the declaration phase are:

1 - Simplicity. This is when the GM notes his SR sheet that he has then to follow. The round is then easy to drive.

Actually, I find this _more_ complex, since I now have to try and remember what every PC and NPC is doing across the course of the round _and_ track their strike ranks. As it was, I found the fact RQ3 interwove movement into strike ranks almost impossible to keep track of for NPCs.

2 - Force the player to think fast. The resolution of the 1st strike ranks takes much more time than the timeframe they represent, and if you react along this time, you have too much time to think and to prepare. With the declaration phase, everybody has to think fast.

I'd argue my form forces this even more, since they don't get the luxury of knowing what the lower Dexterity types are doing until they see it start.That means you have to decide whether what you started to do was a good idea rather than being able to plan it out while you listen to declaration going around.

[Atgxtg]

Nitghtshade,

I think the major reason for the differences between you experiences and our comes from dropping the declation phase.

By the book, skipping that phase slows your fights down, and makes spellcasting a LOT slower, since any action is going to get a 3SR penalty once the fight starts.

Consider: Let's say you have a guy who got hit on SR8 and now wants to cast a heal 2.

1) No Declatarion Phase: You pay the 3SR penalty, and then the spell goes off next turn after his DEX SR+3. So for an anverage character, that would be on SR6.

2) Declation Phase: He waits until the end of the turn, then casts the spell on his DEX SR+2, going off on SR 5.

Or if you want to cast bladesharp 3 before attacking.

1) No Declaration Phase: Cast at DEXSR+3 or SR 6, then prep for 3 SR, ttack 7SR later or SR 6 on the next turn.

2) Declaration Phase: Cast on DEXSR+3, or SR 6, attack 3 SR later than normal (SR7), or at SR 10, this turn.

I think that explains both the differences in how battle magic worked, AND the differences over fatigue. With 3SR penalties left and right, you fights were probably 3-4 rounds longer that ours, and you spellcasters and missile troops correspondingly slower to react.

[Trifletraxor]

For us, it was more:

GM: Declaration phase. What are you doing?

Player 1: Erh, Ehm,...

GM (10 sec later): OK, nothing. Player 2 please.

Player 2: But, ehm,...

GM (10 sec later): OK, nothing. This NPC does that. Player 3 please.

...

At the 3rd fight, everybody knew to be ready when asked to tell what his character was doing.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Wow! That's impressive. I'm not sure I would be able to pull of something like that with my players though.

SGL.

[Nightshade]

Nitghtshade,

I think the major reason for the differences between you experiences and our comes from dropping the declation phase.

I think you're still overestimating the impact on this, A; in practice, it mattered in the first round of combat, and occasionally for complex interactions of archery and spellcasting, but other than that, people just prepped for spellcasting on the following round during the deadspace in strike ranks that usually occured after an attack on prior one. So I don't think this could have had that much impact there.

[Kloster]

Wow! That's impressive. I'm not sure I would be able to pull of something like that with my players though.

SGL.

I lied a little. At the 3rd fight, some players still have inactive characters.

But for most of us, it worked, and after the 2nd session, only 1 player was still not ready (he was the guy who, after 2 years of play, still didn't understood how to cast his bladesharp 2).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

Well, it doesn't hurt that you don't have much of the cross-system partisanship that crops up on most gaming boards. And possibly the old-fart tendencies here don't hurt either.

Nah, it just some people are decent people and some are jerks. One of may favorite boards is for Star Trek, and covers at least 4 different Trek based RPG, yet it is usually one of the most cilvil board's I've seen (it was the aforementioned first board), and we can actually debate topics rather than each other's lineage.

Then again, perhaps it is due to the site being deciated to a show where everybody can generally get along with each other. I suppose if there was a Neo-Nazi RPG site, the members wouldn't be quite so open minded and tolerant.

We do have some BRP/MRQ conflict here, but its mostly in the "I prefer X over Y because" type of discussion.

But overall, you losers are alright. ;)

[Kloster]

I think you're still overestimating the impact on this, A; in practice, it mattered in the first round of combat, and occasionally for complex interactions of archery and spellcasting, but other than that, people just prepped for spellcasting on the following round during the deadspace in strike ranks that usually occured after an attack on prior one. So I don't think this could have had that much impact there.

I think you are underestimating it.

As you tell, it is very important during "complex interactions of archery and spellcasting", but those interactions are not rare.

And it does not affect only the 1st round, because actions that carry over from 1 round to the other one replace the action of the new round.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

I agree with Koslter. Basically, I think the difference between having a declaration phase and not makes or breaks the tactics of the game. That is why I think Nightshade has a very different take on things than we do.

For instance, without a declaration phase, any roundthat a character moves will prevent them from prepping a spell. With the declaration phase, prepping wasn't necessary. THe same with change form missile to melee or spell to melee and back.

I'd go so far as to say that Nightshade's distaste of disrupt as a cheap tactic stems from this. With a declaration phase it is almost impossible to stop a spell with a disrupt unless the spell was very slow/powerful or the disrupter had a very high DEX. Without a declaration phase, it is easy, as all you need to do is wait for someone to start casting and then switch to a disrupt. As both combantats will suffer a 3SR penalty, the disrupt has the edge.

[frogspawner]

I agree with Koslter.

Who's Koslter?

[frogspawner]

I prefer 'No Declaration' over 'Declaration' because... it makes players decide quicker (and spares me the embarrassment, with my extreme age and failing faculties, of not remembering what someone said they'd do 10 seconds ago). Oh, and, it's simpler. Does this mean I agree with anybody?

(Perhaps I haven't been paying enough attention - could someone tell me what the new BRP default system is, please?)