Ars Mysteriorum Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 This may be a bit off-topic, but speaking of WFRP... It's dying! Black Industries is closing shop! Ugh... I cannot believe it! I've started a topic regarding this outrageous travesty in the Gamer's Cavern. Quote "Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..." - H.P. Lovecraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshade Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Plus you get a lot of those shoot the bad guy before he launches the nuke type of endings. Yeah, honestly, the general mechanic isn't just there to prevent inappropriate and random death; its to prevent anticlimax, which is one thing that dice in the game sometimes lead to. Its not a very simulationist result, but then, the problems its designed to address wouldn't be a problem to a hardcore simulationist group in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Yeah, honestly, the general mechanic isn't just there to prevent inappropriate and random death; its to prevent anticlimax, which is one thing that dice in the game sometimes lead to. Its not a very simulationist result, but then, the problems its designed to address wouldn't be a problem to a hardcore simulationist group in the first place. Bingo. This risk on random rolls is that sometimes the random results are not what anyone wanted. Especially as the source material that RPGs are basided on, heroic fiction of one form or another, heavily relies on situations where the hero is over matched and yet through faith, virtue, cleverness, and force of will, manages to succeed. It's good drama and good storytelling. It is just bad from the view of probabilities. Hero Points help to account for this and give it a game mechanic, and one that really is just as viable as rolling dice. Generally, most RPGs tend to make things too random to begin with, in order to promote excitement. Another tact that RPGs can use to try and simulate the "overmathed hero" situation is to lie like hell, and that is not always a great idea either. Many RPG scenarios make claims about how bad the situation is and how overmatched the characters are, then run a bunch of encounters at the PCs with adversaries who are markedly inferior. A good example are Clone Troopers and Stormtroopers in Star Wars. They are supposed to be some sort of elite fighting force and good shots. They even managed to wipe out most of the Jedi order. Yet they can't shoot straight when fighting against a major characters, and only managed to hit one "PC" (Leia, twice.) in six films. That sort of results just don't happen often enough with random die rolls to match the setting. The same hold true with other settings. Elric, Lancelot or Robin Hood, would all go down much too often for comfort. Plus the RQ/BRP critical and fumble chances, while reasonably low and quite workable for PCs, start to warp things when you start doing things in greater numbers. Run a big enough party and you will generally see a PC take critical every fight. Thats where the points help. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 OK (following on from a point raised in the Balance thread), would it be a valid use of Fate Points to get out of an unfavourable Geas (assuming FP were being used in such a setting) ? Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 OK (following on from a point raised in the Balance thread), would it be a valid use of Fate Points to get out of an unfavourable Geas (assuming FP were being used in such a setting) ? Depends on what Fate Points (fatigue points?) means. I would say it should cost a POW at least to get out of one (shift up or down, or otherwise change it), as the gifts have that much and impact. Like when or chaos group got hold of a bunch of vials that gave chaotic features - a good one on 1-4 and a bad one on 5-6 on the 1d6. Man that was fun! It went approximately that way with the group too. 4 increased their powers considerably, 2 became roaming monsters! SGL. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 OK (following on from a point raised in the Balance thread), would it be a valid use of Fate Points to get out of an unfavourable Geas (assuming FP were being used in such a setting) ? I'd say no. That is part of the package of joining a cult. I could however, see using the points to modify the die roll when the geas is first rolled, so you ended up with something else. I am a bit learly of the all or never personalty traits in some games. They are very hard to roleplay properly without shades of gray. For instance, a few games have a "people take what you say in the worst possible light" disadvantage, that I think completely cripples any character is played as written. Even "Thank you very much, you kind, wonder person." would take intepreted as sacasm and it all goes downhill from there. I doubt a character could really get through a day with that flaw. Likewise I think the "distrust" in "distruct all non-Humakti" must be tempered with a gain of salt. There would probably be varying degrees of distrust and the character might try to convert those friends and loved ones who are "so nearly trustworthy, if only they would see the wisdom of Humakt and not let their fear of Death cloud their judgment." It's distrust, not raging paranoia. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Depends on what Fate Points (fatigue points?) means. I would say it should cost a POW at least to get out of one (shift up or down, or otherwise change it), as the gifts have that much and impact. Yes, the cost should be significant. BTW, do you use (permanent) POW as Hero/Fate Points already? That seems quite a neat method... Like when or chaos group got hold of a bunch of vials that gave chaotic features - a good one on 1-4 and a bad one on 5-6 on the 1d6. Man that was fun! It went approximately that way with the group too. 4 increased their powers considerably, 2 became roaming monsters! :eek: Hmmm, I never realized before, but the Gifts/Geases are just 'Lawful Features'... I could however, see using the points to modify the die roll when the geas is first rolled, so you ended up with something else. Oh, yes I meant when it was first 'given', naturally. I am a bit learly of the all or never personalty traits in some games. They are very hard to roleplay properly without shades of gray. Hopefully, the Pendragon-ish personality rules I'm about to inflict on my players will be sufficiently 'grey' (and they're for volunteers only). Likewise I think the "distrust" in "distruct all non-Humakti" must be tempered with a gain of salt. ... It's distrust, not raging paranoia. It was years ago, but maybe someday I could try playing it like that and 'resurrect' that Humakti character... (PS: Nice typo! "destruct all non-Humakti"?) Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Y(PS: Nice typo! "destruct all non-Humakti"?) Freudian slip? "The only good ____, is a dead ____". ----------------------------------------------Humakt Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Yes, the cost should be significant. BTW, do you use (permanent) POW as Hero/Fate Points already? That seems quite a neat method... Well, DI have been our "Fate Points" so far. If I end up using fate points of some sort later, in other settings, it will probably be related to POW though, is I think that kindoff stuff shuold cost. SGL. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Well, DI have been our "Fate Points" so far. If I end up using fate points of some sort later, in other settings, it will probably be related to POW though, is I think that kindoff stuff shuold cost. SGL. That would work, but I think we would need a way for modern day characters to get POW gain rolls. Without spells or psychic powers POW vs POW rolls are few and far between. Maybe if they are pemanently spent just giving each character a POW gain roll each time the roll for skill improvement might do it. But at Permanent POW I'd favor a 1-1 type of effect. That is 1 points shifts the result 1 success level. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 That would work, but I think we would need a way for modern day characters to get POW gain rolls. Without spells or psychic powers POW vs POW rolls are few and far between. Maybe for some spectacular or heroic action? Anything that would significantly boost a persons ego? SGL. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Maybe for some spectacular or heroic action? Anything that would significantly boost a persons ego? SGL. :lol: Well, to complete the Bond analogy, characters used to get Hero Points in that game for getting a Quality Rating 1 result (think critical). SO maybe POW gain rolls could be awarded for a critical success? That would certainly be an ego boost. Naturally the GM could decide if something warranted a POW gain roll the way skill checks are monitored. A Critical Persuade/Intimidation an 8 year old probably doesn't merit a POW gain roll. The same roll against a 7' tall henchman might. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Maybe for some spectacular or heroic action? Anything that would significantly boost a persons ego? From Bunnies & Burrows... getting the girl? Very cinematic! (To clarify: one per girl, not per occasion! ) Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 From Bunnies & Burrows... getting the girl? Very cinematic! (To clarify: one per girl, not per occasion! ) Well that explains another thing from Bond.... Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 The same hold true with other settings. Elric, Lancelot or Robin Hood, would all go down much too often for comfort. I suspect Fate points work a bit differently for Elric than most other heroes. Quote Help kill a Trollkin here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I like keeping Fate Points as a seperate pool that is not tied to POW or Pow Points or any other in game statistic (spellcasters never seem to get any lucky breaks, what is up with that?). Divine Intervention happens in Game, bad shit happens and a character calls on his god and good shit happens to counteract the bad shit but the god takes some POW - fine with me. Fate mechanics I see as something players use, not their characters. Fate points keep the game going when the dice are cruel, and I don't see them manifesting in the story. When you use a fate/hero point to prevent a critical to the head, I don't envision a miracle happening in game - the .50 caliber sniper round does not cause Bobs head to explode like an overripe grapefruit and then a moment later go back to together - the shot misses - maybe a gnat flies up the nose of the sniper or something as he pulls the trigger, or some other unlikely event, but nothing is actually turned back like with a DI. So it seems odd and unrealistic to me that an unseen sniper takes a bead on Bob's head, as he pulls the trigger a gnat flies up his nose causing the sniper to miss and Bob to lose a bunch of his magic points for no discernable reason. If using Fate points or Hero Points with BRP I would create a new pool rather than use POW or MP, except possibly in a completely magic - less setting where Pow Points have absolutely no in game effect (effectively making them an out of game resource anyway). That is my 2 cents. Do I only have to pay Triff or everyone who reads this post? Quote Help kill a Trollkin here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Rurik, One (and only one) possible rationale is that the points could be luck. Since luck was tied to POW in the past then the points being spent could be luck points. But everybody's luck runs out at some time. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I like keeping Fate Points as a seperate pool that is not tied to POW or Pow Points or any other in game statistic (spellcasters never seem to get any lucky breaks, what is up with that?). I see what you mean, that Fate points are 'meta-game' but Power points are 'in-game'. So using PP as part of the Fate mechanism (as I have just changed to) is a bit odd. Having swapped, I think you may well be right! But we'll see how it goes... Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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