WFRP Style Fate points in BRP?

[Simlasa]

Perhaps if you wanted to use MPs as fate points you could do a Marvel Supers FASERIP style "I will make a special" type system.

You declare before an important roll what kind of success you want to make, then roll the dice, for each 10 points you miss by you spend 1mp, and even if you succeed you spend the minimum 1mp for the roll.

That reminds me of a description I saw somewhere of the way one group uses fate points... to represent an exceptional effort... 'I know this is really important so I'm gonna put my all into it'. Spending the point before hand to influence, but not insure, the roll about to be made. Kind of like betting... making that final exertion at the end of the race.

Using them that way appeals to me somewhat... for some sorts of games (Raymond Chandler is only borderline noir for me... my idea of 'Film Noir' is much more along the lines of 'Blast Of Silence' or 'Out Of The Past'... and not much of anybody lived through those.).

[dracopticon]

Several years ago, I gamemastered my own BRP-clone of EBROS in a campaign that lasted one year and a half, during which time I had a value on the character sheet called "Tanj" (from the Ringworld abbreviation "There Ain't No Justice"). This were my label on the Hero/Fate Points of my system. But the criteria was that they could do only so much.

For example, a character got three crossbow bolts in his chest in one combat round, and each was quite deadly (of course). So the player choose to use up three fate points (one for each bolt). And that really cost him, but it should!

The Tanj points could not reverse a gods decision, for instance, or something as heavy. But I plan to use the Tanj points again, since my view on characters are: they're heroes!

Erik Brickman.

[frogspawner]

But I plan to use the Tanj points again, since my view on characters are: they're heroes!

However, are they the only heroes around? Yesterday, some NPCs used (my equivalent of) Fate Points to escape damage in combat - "But we're the heroes!" the players howled. Was that 'Justice'?

BTW, how do your 'heroes' earn their Tanj?

[Nightshade]

However, are they the only heroes around? Yesterday, some NPCs used (my equivalent of) Fate Points to escape damage in combat - "But we're the heroes!" the players howled. Was that 'Justice'?

BTW, how do your 'heroes' earn their Tanj?

At best, people in games with hero point style mechanics should expect major opponents to get to use them too. I've rarely seen a game with that kind of mechanic where that wasn't true.

[frogspawner]

Phew! That was my thought - thanks for your support!

[Atgxtg]

Phew! That was my thought - thanks for your support!

Yeah ditto here. I have seen some games differentiate the points somewhat though. For example, the James Bond game gave heroes "hero points" and villains "survival points". The distinction being that survival points could only be used defensively. That made a lot of sense too, since if a PC spends 3 points to blow a bad guy away it doesn't disrupt the campaign as much as the bad guy spending 3 points and blowing a PC away. Especially since the PCs would be spending points going through the adventure to get to the bad guy, while the villain was usually safe "off camera".

Most games also tend to limit the points to significant NPCs though, or limit the points for extras and other minor characters. Otherwise a squad of 20 stormtroopers becomes almost unkillable. Twenty guys even with 8 POW for being clones probably have a big advantage over a group of PC heroes.

Generally the idea behind hero points is to tone down the lethality a little for the players to allow then to act like larger than life heroes. Handling out the same number of points to every NPCs does just the opposite.

[Hedgehobbit]

I remember reading a game a few years back that had Hero points but when you used them, you got this kind of negative Hero point in return. Kinda like Doom points. These points the GM could use to cause you trouble later on down the line.

Anyone seen anything like this?

[frogspawner]

Most games also tend to limit the points to significant NPCs though, or limit the points for extras and other minor characters.

And normally I would too. It's just I'm calling this ability Defence, and the NPC stats I was using gave had the baboons listed with "10% Defence", so... (yeah, I know it's GM laziness, not reworking the stats - I've been busy, ok? ) Good way to test the new rule, though!

(Edit: I should explain I'm giving Defence x PP spent chance to avoid damage. Again - thanks for the idea, Atg!)

I remember reading a game a few years back that had Hero points but when you used them, you got this kind of negative Hero point in return. Kinda like Doom points. These points the GM could use to cause you trouble later on down the line.

Not seen it, but nice idea!

[Atgxtg]

Again - thanks for the idea, Atg!)

Whadido?:confused:

[frogspawner]

Whadido?:confused:

Suggested the 'spending PP' part. Upthread, I thought, but can't find it now - maybe in another one. Ta, anyway. It's currently under playtest...

[AikiGhost]

Most games also tend to limit the points to significant NPCs though, or limit the points for extras and other minor characters. Otherwise a squad of 20 stormtroopers becomes almost unkillable.

In my games the stormtroopers don't get fate points but Darth Vader certainly would. It allows you to not have major villains killed you an 01 in the first combat round

[AikiGhost]

I remember reading a game a few years back that had Hero points but when you used them, you got this kind of negative Hero point in return. Kinda like Doom points. These points the GM could use to cause you trouble later on down the line.

Anyone seen anything like this?

You need to go read FATE, its completely free and has some of the most innovative mechanics I've seen in a game.

[dracopticon]

However, are they the only heroes around? Yesterday, some NPCs used (my equivalent of) Fate Points to escape damage in combat - "But we're the heroes!" the players howled. Was that 'Justice'?

BTW, how do your 'heroes' earn their Tanj?

First answer: no they're not the only heroes (and sure enough, the other NPC heroes got their Tanj points too). Even the 'evil guys', or the major opponents got their own 'anti-tanj', which could nullify the use of tanj points by the PC's.

Second answer: this is where I've been a little lazy, I've formulated that a player character can get Tanj points from their rexpective God/Goddess/Church/Belief as a reward. But ultimately, that got so scarce that I started rewarding players with Tanj points when they managed to roll a "01" on the D100 when using skills etc. So, the lucky ones got even luckier (this system can definetly be improved).

Erik Brickman.

[Merak Gren]

In my RQ game, I have allowed Hero Points as used in HeroQuest.

They allow the following;

1. Bump up the success level of a roll (once).

2. A re-roll.

3. Buy 10+ base chance in a skill at nil.

4. 1HP is equivalent to 1week of training. Players can save them up and training can happen in the background rather than during the game.

5. Regain D6+6 hit points.

6. Anything else that might seem appropriate at time.

7. Change story a little.

It's working ok but needs refining.

[frogspawner]

So, the lucky ones got even luckier...

There certainly ain't no justice! You could try giving them out as rewards for good roleplaying, like I do...

[Atgxtg]

There certainly ain't no justice! You could try giving them out as rewards for good roleplaying, like I do...

That assumes that justice has something to do with it. I think the method that the points are earned/auqired depends on whay the points are and what the represent.

It they are "Luck" points I would see them as being independent of role-playing.

If they are "Hero" points then I would see them being acquired through heroic actions.

If they are "Fate" points then I could see them being handled out by the GM per his own criteria.

[Nightshade]

Yeah ditto here. I have seen some games differentiate the points somewhat though. For example, the James Bond game gave heroes "hero points" and villains "survival points". The distinction being that survival points could only be used defensively. That made a lot of sense too, since if a

Yeah, in an ultra-cinematic game where you want to tilt success toward the heroes, that's a justified approach; even in those you want something to buffer the bad luck of major villains so you don't get anticlimax, but since you want it to be an expected result that the heroes win in the end, you probably don't want to give the villains any help on that end.

Generally the idea behind hero points is to tone down the lethality a little for the players to allow then to act like larger than life heroes. Handling out the same number of points to every NPCs does just the opposite.

Quite.

[drohem]

In our group's games we use Villian Points for major NPCs but not the mooks. So the villian that the PCs left dead mysteriously returns at a later date...muhawaha >:->

[p_clapham]

I'm planning on lifting the Hero Points right out of MRQ for this one. The fate mechanics in BRP are interesting, but not what I'm looking for.

[Nightshade]

One of the things one has to keep in mind for this sort of mechanic is that, barring unusual settings, its not an in-character resource; that is, the PCs don't know from anything about "spending luck" or the like. As such one of the things the GM has to keep in mind is that even when he's given the resource to an NPC, using it is entirely at his discretion, and its not playing the character badly not to use it when the GM thinks it would be better not to, because the character, in character, doesn't have any control over it. Its functionally a metagame resource (though sometimes with some in-game rationale).

[Atgxtg]

One of the things one has to keep in mind for this sort of mechanic is that, barring unusual settings, its not an in-character resource;

"Use the Force, Luke."

that is, the PCs don't know from anything about "spending luck" or the like. As such one of the things the GM has to keep in mind is that even when he's given the resource to an NPC, using it is entirely at his discretion, and its not playing the character badly not to use it when the GM thinks it would be better not to, because the character, in character, doesn't have any control over it. Its functionally a metagame resource (though sometimes with some in-game rationale).

Amen. Otherwise all the little flunkies, minion, extras and stromtropers would tap their vast pool of "warp reality" points and the sheer imbalance would doom the PCs.

That's why I liked the James Bond game's take on them. PCs got Hero Points, because they acted like heroes, saving the world, etc. Other people didn't get them because they weren't heroes. Heroic NPCs being the rare exception. In fact, in Bond if the guy you were fighting starts spending Hero Points, you're probably shooting at the wrong guy.

Villains got Survival points, and did their major henchmen, and to a lesser extent flunkies. That was to prevent things from becoming to easy or an adventure ending prematurely should PC decide to just "blast Goldfinger's Head off" five minutes into the mission.

[frogspawner]

Villains got Survival points, and did their major henchmen, and to a lesser extent flunkies. That was to prevent things from becoming to easy or an adventure ending prematurely should PC decide to just "blast Goldfinger's Head off" five minutes into the mission.

Or if you restrict everyone's Hero/Survival/Fate points to only defensive uses it also avoids that sort of effect (and it's 'fair' on NPCs, if you care about that sort of thing).

[Atgxtg]

Or if you restrict everyone's Hero/Survival/Fate points to only defensive uses it also avoids that sort of effect (and it's 'fair' on NPCs, if you care about that sort of thing).

Not really, since the players can decide to do that anyway without Hero Points. In Bond, if you use the right equipment with the right setup and have some degree of Fire Combat skill playing sniper is easy.

For one thing you can take aim, and get bonuses to attack. Since damage done is based on the Quality Rating (think BRP Success Level), increasing skill increases damage. Then there is the surprise bonus, which nearly doubles skill. After that you can take a penalty to hit to inflict more damage.

So get within about 300m with a decent sniper rifle and go for a head shot and it isn't tough. Get two or three PCs to do it and even a big villain will go down quick.

But in that game, that might not do you any good. Especially if you don't have a reason to shoot him yet. Blowing him away for cheating a golf isn't going to go down well with MI6.

Besides, being able to spend the points to improve rolls allows heroes to get off those badly needed "defuse the bomb or we're all dead" rolls. Plus you can occasionally fleece a bad guy at the tables and then steal his girlfriend.

IMO the real key to things is that the points don't regenerate. So if the players go overboard and waste them all early showing off, they won't have any for when they need them.

[frogspawner]

In Bond, if you use the right equipment with the right setup and have some degree of Fire Combat skill playing sniper is easy.

...

Besides, being able to spend the points to improve rolls allows heroes to get off those badly needed "defuse the bomb or we're all dead" rolls. Plus you can occasionally fleece a bad guy at the tables and then steal his girlfriend.

But IMO they shouldn't be able to make shooting the bad guys even easier just by spending Hero Points. Ditto fleecing, girlfriend-stealing and whatever they should do on their own, I'd say. (Maybe in Bond it's ok - I guess that's more like story-telling).

The "do this or we die" thing is defensive, though, so that's fine. Just like Luke's Death Star shot...

[Atgxtg]

But IMO they shouldn't be able to make shooting the bad guys even easier just by spending Hero Points. Ditto fleecing, girlfriend-stealing and whatever they should do on their own, I'd say. (Maybe in Bond it's ok - I guess that's more like story-telling).

The "do this or we die" thing is defensive, though, so that's fine. Just like Luke's Death Star shot...

Often the do or die thing isn't defensive. Hero Points do work out fine in Bond, but yeah that's Bond. Allowing the players to use them to improve rolls also adds to the fun. It adds to the tension too, since a PC can be tempted to "waste" them on things that they might want to do, but don't need to do. So if you spend all your points looking cool in the 'teaser" you may not have any left for the end when you storm the bad guy's HQ.

The other thing is that Survival Points/defensive spending can only be done to rolls made against the NPCs, not rolls that they make themselves. So the way that game works, Luke couldn't use survival points to "blow up" the Death Star. He would need Hero Points for that. Same for a character who falls off a cliff and tries to grab onto a ledge, or a character bitten by a poisonous snake who has to make a roll to resist the poison. Or for a character to keep his Aston Martin from smacking into a tractor-trailer who involved in a high speed chase on the motorway.

And there are even a few other uses for them. Like using them to slighter alter the game world in a believable way. For instance, if a PC is escaping from a castle, he might be able to convince the GM to let him find a saber or mace on the wall over the fireplace by spending a Hero Point.

That is part of how the game restricts them. There are so many neat ways to use them that it takes a little self-discipline not to waste them. You don;t get a lot. Plus, unlike most other games that use them, they don't get refreshed after each adventure. So players never feel like they got them to spare.

I've played quite a few games that have hero points in some fashion, Bond, Star Wars D6, Star Wars D20, TImelords, FATE, Star Trek (LUG), Top Secret, Spirit of the Century, CORPS, Star Trek (Decipher), EABA, HeroQuest, L5R, DC Heroes, and several others. The Bond systems method is my favorite. It is also the most "stand on you own two legs" version of them. While the BOnd game gives the PCs a few edges, it also dumps things right on the PCs shoulders. No high level characters to come along and bail the PCs out, or do their work for them (well, there is an exception for if the PCs screw up really badly and the world is about to be destroyed, simply so the GM can keep a campaign running).

Even a lot of the things that you can do with the points but shouldn't have thier own drawbacks. Killing people is sometimes necessary, but frowned upon, and has a few in game drawbacks. Getting sent to jail is one. Escalation from a rival sevice is another. And then there is always the risk of raising your Fame total and making it more difficult to keep a cover.

And the Villians' Survival points do help to offset the PCs Hero Points. If PC spends a few points to up the quality of his shot and the villain spends a few to drop the quality back down, the PC has just spent valuable points for no effect. And those points are gone for good.

Plus you get a lot of those shoot the bad guy before he launches the nuke type of endings.