Ancient History

[drohem]

hehe...oh snap! I am corrected.

"I picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue."

I was thinking of Jefferson when I wrote that about becoming President for some reason.

Yes, Hamilton never was an American president, he died from the mortal wound in the duel. Although, he was one of the most influential founding fathers.

[Kloster]

Thanks for the american history lesson.

Now that you have explained, I remember an article in a history magazine some 20 years ago that spoke of a famous duel between 2 famous american politicians.

1 was known to having fired in the air, but not the other. And an analysis of the duelling pistols made around 1985 proved that the pistol that fired in the air had a very high sensitivity (a few grams of pressure were sufficient to fire the shot) and the author of the article presumed the air shot had been caused by stress.

Could it have been this duel?

Intricacies of american history can lead to war in your school rooms, but is completely ignored here from France (but our last political duel was in 1967, with swords).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[badcat]

ahem, Kloster, Aaron Burr IS ancient history, now. But...

If you want to talk about pistol duels instead of phalanx vs. maniple, though, my favorite is Andy Jackson...that rascal took a ball in the chest and calmly stood there and blew away his opponent. Not many years after the Burr affair...and hey, you know about Wyatt Earp?....

:focus:

[Kloster]

ahem, Kloster, Aaron Burr IS ancient history, now. But...

If you want to talk about pistol duels instead of phalanx vs. maniple, though, my favorite is Andy Jackson...that rascal took a ball in the chest and calmly stood there and blew away his opponent. Not many years after the Burr affair...and hey, you know about Wyatt Earp?....

:focus:

I don't specially want, even if it can be interesting for BRP.

And I saw the shootout at ok corral :innocent:

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[badcat]

I don't think Westerns are a real good choice for BRP, no. You need not worry...

Then again, there is Deadlands, you don't have to quite playing just 'cause you are dead...

[drohem]

Westerns can be done well in BRP/RQ. We ran a successful game for a while. It's just deadly.

[Atgxtg]

I would think BRP is fine for Westerns. Like CoC but (hopefully) without the mythos nasties.

Weapon stats are easy. Adapt the Iaijustu rules for Land of the Ninbja for Fast-draws and you are pretty much there.

New BRP would be even easier, since there are option Luck/Fate Point rules that could help the PCs ward off lead poisoning.

I've got knuckleduster an COC if anyone want's some wester firearms written up quick.

Damn, this might be worth writing up as a serious BRP project. It would cover a new field for BRP, and most of the work is already done.

Land of the Gwanji

Western Role Playing with a real bite!

[badcat]

Maybe. I can see both sides. Guns are deadly, but remember the knives and shortwords in the TV series Rome?:eek:

Anyway, deadly makes a good game, IMO. Even D&D was more fun at low levels, when the PCs could still fear a goblin with a knife.

Also, speaking of Rome (this was nibbling at me earlier in this thread), in some of the aftermath scenes there was some pretty graphic evidence of slashing wounds on the battlefields (similar to some of the description of historians, posted above). Doesn't really mean much, I know, but the series was pretty realistic in general. So.

[Atgxtg]

Maybe. I can see both sides. Guns are deadly, but remember the knives and shortwords in the TV series Rome?:eek:

Anyway, deadly makes a good game, IMO. Even D&D was more fun at low levels, when the PCs could still fear a goblin with a knife.

Also, speaking of Rome (this was nibbling at me earlier in this thread), in some of the aftermath scenes there was some pretty graphic evidence of slashing wounds on the battlefields (similar to some of the description of historians, posted above). Doesn't really mean much, I know, but the series was pretty realistic in general. So.

Pretty much everything is deadly in RQ/BRP. Guns aren't really much deadlier than swords, axes, etc. in RQ. In CoC prety much everything is deadly.

Its the lack of armor that hurts. So some sort of "fate points" idea would help.

I don't doubt that there was slashing damage done by gladiui, there were perfectable capable of cutting as well as thrusting. It is, in essence a big knife and you can use a knife both ways.

[badcat]

Sure, but I have read that training doctrine for the gladius was close with shield and thrust from cover. Thus a 'thrusting weapon'. You have a valid point about armor...and shields. The fact remains that a Western setting is going to be deadlier. For all of the above reasons.

Guns have a slightly higher average damage, always from range, and armor isn't common. Swords are deadly too, but firearms offer distinct advantages. As a summary of sorts.

If you haven't seen Rome, you might be interested. It's way better than most movies set in the timeframe.

[drohem]

Low-level characters are my favorite in 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons and d20 Modern games.

[Atgxtg]

Sure, but I have read that training doctrine for the gladius was close with shield and thrust from cover. Thus a 'thrusting weapon'. You have a valid point about armor...and shields. The fact remains that a Western setting is going to be deadlier. For all of the above reasons.

Yeah, I saw something about Roman fighting tactics. The reasons for stressing thusting were that thrust were faster (you could thrust two or 3 times in the time it takes to slash) and thusts didn't leave you as exposed as slashing did, since you didn't have to lift you arm as much.

I don't think a Wester setting is deadlier, per say, just quicker.

At the end of a session you will probably have just as many dead bodies, only that they got that way with two shits instead of four to six cuts.

Guns have a slightly higher average damage, always from range, and armor isn't common. Swords are deadly too, but firearms offer distinct advantages. As a summary of sorts.

Yes firearms have advantages--that why they repaced swords. But since guns are common, the advantages balance out. First shot will be important, but that fits the genre nicely.

If you haven't seen Rome, you might be interested. It's way better than most movies set in the timeframe.

Movie? I familiar with the Rome series. Is that what you are referring to?

I have wanted to run a Roman campaign for awhile too. SO far every time I've been about to do so something came up.

I've even considered running a take off on the old Phil Silvers Show, with the PC serving under an "Optio Bilcus".

[Atgxtg]

Low-level characters are my favorite in 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons and d20 Modern games.

Our groups seem to prefer the 3rd-7th level range. Characters are tough enough to take a couple of hits, yet not so tough as to waltz through things. Wizards and warriors are fairly well matched in terms of power, and there is just enough magic in terms of power and exotic abilities to add spice to the game.

Below that, and characters feel underdeveloped and a bit too fragile. Higher than that and the game starts to lose its appeal.

[badcat]

Yes, the TV series. Second season too.

Have a look at 'Roma Imperius'. Rpg by Hinterwelt. It's interesting.

[Atgxtg]

Yes, the TV series. Second season too.

I've flipped through it and read some reveiws. Wasn't impressed. Nothing that I don't think BRP could do better, plus I don;t like the "alternate thing. THere hasn't been enough "mainstream" Roman RPGs to justify all the alternate ones.

Years aog, I did up some legionaire background tables for Pendragon. I got into all the various positions in the Legion, the immunes and all that. Perhaps I should dig that out for when BRP Rome is released? Maybe I got a supplement in the works?

[badcat]

I agree about the system, but I liked the alternate history angle. It was amazing to me how unnecessarily complex the system is, to basically do the same thing BRP does, yes. There's always GURPS Rome, if you can ignore the rules parts.

I am going to model the Atlantean army after the Roman army to some extent. I do hesitate a bit at using the weapon names 'gladius' and 'pilum' (anachronistic) but then again, why not?

I'm not a big fan of Pendragon, so I don't know anything much about it. The generational thing and personality trait thing are big turn-offs to me. I consider them as unnecessary as some of Roma Imperius' more arcane rules...or fate points, et al.

KISS all the way.

[Kloster]

Sure, but I have read that training doctrine for the gladius was close with shield and thrust from cover. Thus a 'thrusting weapon'. You have a valid point about armor...and shields. The fact remains that a Western setting is going to be deadlier. For all of the above reasons.

...

This doctrine is part of the Marian reform (around 100 BC).

The target was to cause thrusting wound to the abdomen without exposing yourself.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

I would think BRP is fine for Westerns. Like CoC but (hopefully) without the mythos nasties.

Weapon stats are easy. Adapt the Iaijustu rules for Land of the Ninbja for Fast-draws and you are pretty much there.

New BRP would be even easier, since there are option Luck/Fate Point rules that could help the PCs ward off lead poisoning.

I've got knuckleduster an COC if anyone want's some wester firearms written up quick.

Damn, this might be worth writing up as a serious BRP project. It would cover a new field for BRP, and most of the work is already done.

Land of the Gwanji

Western Role Playing with a real bite!

One of the characters I have used during "Horror of the Orient Express" was a retired Harry Longbaugh (spelling?), that fled Bolivia, and went to europe to live on his ill gotten gains.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Pretty much everything is deadly in RQ/BRP. Guns aren't really much deadlier than swords, axes, etc. in RQ. In CoC prety much everything is deadly.

Its the lack of armor that hurts. So some sort of "fate points" idea would help.

...

Or use the "Jewel" rule from elfquest (calling it belt buckle rule, or whatever).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

...

If you haven't seen Rome, you might be interested. It's way better than most movies set in the timeframe.

True. The depicting of roman society is very interesting. Too bad it will not continue.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

I suppose since I'm the author of the forthcoming BRP Rome book, I should pipe up and mention that work is still continuing on the manuscript, but I hope to have it finished early next year. It should be noted too, that the supplement will be covering the somewhat more exotic Monarchy and Republican periods... So you can set adventures at the same time as the HBO series if you wish.

Say Pete, how much detail does it go into with the Legions? Like I said, I had worked up some stuff on the different ranks and positions, including the various types of immunes in Pendragon. Looking at my notes, some of it could be useful for an RQ/BRP style game. For isntance, soldier could be orderlies, clerks, scouts, carpenters, and such. I even had a Marching skill that used to add to CON for forced marches, allowing the legion to march most of the day, and then put up a fortified camp before nightfall.

In fact, the previous experience system used in Pendragon is a lot closer to what BRP seems to be going for, breaking up some skill points, so coversion would probably be easy.

Would any of that stuff be of interest too you? I still got the files on the computer.

[Pete Nash]

Say Pete, how much detail does it go into with the Legions? Like I said, I had worked up some stuff on the different ranks and positions, including the various types of immunes in Pendragon. Looking at my notes, some of it could be useful for an RQ/BRP style game. For isntance, soldier could be orderlies, clerks, scouts, carpenters, and such. I even had a Marching skill that used to add to CON for forced marches, allowing the legion to march most of the day, and then put up a fortified camp before nightfall.

Well if I remember correctly, the immunes technically came after the end of the Republic. I think the first references to them are from the Augustan period.

What I've written for the Military chapter is a general overview of the enemies (and their armaments) faced by early Rome, interspersed with descriptions of the gradual change in organisation of the legions and their equipment. I have a clear depiction of the various ranks as the army evolved.

Also included are sections on military discipline and the types of decorations or rewards someone in the army could earn, depending on their rank and the feats of bravery achieved... Most of what's included is designed to support the role-playing, rather than the wargaming aspect... Its further illustrated with evocative primary references from the Roman and Greek authors of the time.

My biggest problem is that there's far too much information about the legions! I could easily fill an entire supplement on how precisely Roman camps are built, the exchange of passwords during the night watch, military engineering, etc, etc, etc! So I've had to be brutal and hope that all the primary references I've included will tantalize the readers enough so that they become hooked and do the next level of research for themselves! After all, I have to squeeze an overview of the rest of pre-Imperial Rome into the book too!

Would any of that stuff be of interest too you? I still got the files on the computer.

I am always interested in gathering more information. Please send. But I fear I'll probably be unable to shoehorn anything extra into the current draft. :ohwell:

[Atgxtg]

Well if I remember correctly, the immunes technically came after the end of the Republic. I think the first references to them are from the Augustan period.

Possibly. I wrote this for Pendragon, a game set in a semi historical Arthurian era, so a late Imperial period. But it would work for the Early empire too.

I'll do a little digging. I though the Immunes were part of Marius reform, but don't know for certain.

I am always interested in gathering more information. Please send. But I fear I'll probably be unable to shoehorn anything extra into the current draft. :ohwell:

I didn't expect any changes. More like the idea that some of this stuff might be useful to post somerhwere for character creation (since that is mostly what it was).

Nasically in Pendragon, your background gave you a certain number of points to spend and some ceertain skills. With the way BRP seems to be going, it would probably be less of a rule, and more a list of options for spending your character points. I gave a quick list of basic training skills and benefit for being the son of a soldier or officer.

For example here are the requirements to enlist and basic training benefits as written for Pendragon:

ENLISTMENT REQUIREMENTS

RECRUITS

Roman Citizenship

Age 17

SIZ 14 (height requirement, waved with connections)

Valor 12

Loyalty (Lord or City) 10

Honor 8

ENLISTMENT BONUS-75 denarii.

BASIC TRAINING (1 Year)

Gladius (Dagger), Hasta (Spear), Pilum (Javelin) +3 each.

Awareness, Spaetha (Sword) +1 each.

First Aid, Swimming, Grapple +2 each.

Battle +3

Industry (Build) +5

Marching +3

Extra Training 1d6 to distribute as desired.

5 GLORY

GEAR ISSUED-Leather and open helm (4-pt) armor, spear, legionary

shield (9 point), sword, dagger, uniform worth 60d.

PAY-Room and Board, Equipment, 20 denarii per month (1œ/year)

Natually in BRP a lot of that can be dropped and broght in line with the new character creation rules.

[TRose]

Pretty much everything is deadly in RQ/BRP. Guns aren't really much deadlier than swords, axes, etc. in RQ. In CoC prety much everything is deadly.

Its the lack of armor that hurts. So some sort of "fate points" idea would help.

I don't doubt that there was slashing damage done by gladiui, there were perfectable capable of cutting as well as thrusting. It is, in essence a big knife and you can use a knife both ways.

I know of only 2 case where armor was used in the West, although there might be more.

One was in Australia where a Bandit gang tried to use some home made armor to shoot it out with the Police.

Second was a Comanche Chief who some how got his hand on a old Spanish breastplate and used it as a magical item.

Cannot recall the name of either off hand but the Australian bandits I know are real famous in Australia at least

[drohem]

I know of only 2 case where armor was used in the West, although there might be more.

One was in Australia where a Bandit gang tried to use some home made armor to shoot it out with the Police.

Second was a Comanche Chief who some how got his hand on a old Spanish breastplate and used it as a magical item.

Cannot recall the name of either off hand but the Australian bandits I know are real famous in Australia at least

Ned Kelly was the Australian outlaw.

Ned Kelly

I read about the Comanche as well, but I don't remember many details at the moment either.