Question regarding shields

[Beoferret]

A wicker shield should definitely have lower HP than a wooden one (but maybe have less encumbrance?) I suppose it might be best to look at the provided stats for shields as guidelines, rather than outright rules. 

 

On another note, if a hoplon is classified as large, shouldn't there be an extra-large size shield that fills in for the scutum/Mycenaean figure-8 shield/larger Assyrian-style shields that clearly provided protection for the entire torso and legs (or head, if one wanted to show one's ankles)?

[Beoferret]

Fun Youtube video with Mike Loades. He makes an argument that at least some shields made with light/relatively light materials could have been pretty strong due to their shape (while demonstrating the use of a Mycenaean figure-of-eight shield.)  

 

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

11 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

A wicker shield should definitely have lower HP than a wooden one (but maybe have less encumbrance?) I suppose it might be best to look at the provided stats for shields as guidelines, rather than outright rules. 

I've seen practice arrows that are trapped on a hanging cloth sheet, stopping an arrow is not always about being hard but also about ... energy dissipation? (I have no idea how it works)

Chinese wicker shields were made to stop arrows

[Kloster]

I've seen Indian police using wicker shields during violent protests. They took a lot of beatings, including by swords. The only problem was that they don't provide cover against tear gas. In Delhi, this is a problem, but in Pavis, much less.

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Beoferret said:

On another note, if a hoplon is classified as large, shouldn't there be an extra-large size shield that fills in for the scutum/Mycenaean figure-8 shield/larger Assyrian-style shields that clearly provided protection for the entire torso and legs (or head, if one wanted to show one's ankles)?

Extra Large wicker shields are in Weapons & Equipment page 86, there's another type detailed in the GM Screen pack.

10 hours ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

I've seen practice arrows that are trapped on a hanging cloth sheet, stopping an arrow is not always about being hard but also about ... energy dissipation? (I have no idea how it works)

Aprons are also on page 86.

Edited April 1, 2022 by David Scott

[svensson]

22 hours ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

I've seen practice arrows that are trapped on a hanging cloth sheet, stopping an arrow is not always about being hard but also about ... energy dissipation? (I have no idea how it works)

Chinese wicker shields were made to stop arrows

Energy dissipation is the effect your describing. It's as good a term as any. The same effect is called ballistic bleed when discussing bullet penetration.

 

[svensson]

There are many illustrations of tightly-woven cloth snagging arrows all through the Ancient and early Medieval periods. By 'tightly woven' I mean duck canvas, multiple layers of silk, and tentage-quality linen.

However, these arrows are usually [but not always] at or near the end of trajectories and much of their ballistic energy is spent. That's fine... any arrow that's hung up in your shield skirt or pteruges [the weighted straps on Greek and Roman upper arm and abdomen armors] isn't sticking out of you. But an projectile with an armor piercing bodkin point at the early part of it's energy path is probably going to penetrate those defenses. If it can penetrate a bronze cuirass, logic says it will probably pierce a shield skirt.

As for shield construction, wooden shields resists and impact, while a wicker shield does absorbs it. Leather shields of some animal hides does both. There are battle reports of Zulu shields resisting Martini-Henry bullets from the Zulu War, after all. Most Zulu isiLangu [the large battle shield of King Shaka's era] were made of Cape bison hide, but the most prized were made of rhino hide. And since the Agimori are 'Zulu-esque' in their cultural warfare....

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

However, these arrows are usually [but not always] at or near the end of trajectories and much of their ballistic energy is spent.

That's a question I always had, arrows here (rqg) seem to have 100 meters effective range (Composite bow) . 

I'm going to ignore that the game considers the same chance to fail hitting something every 6 seconds at 20 meters and at 100.*

But then,

"at or near the end of trajectories"

Aren't they all? Shooting rarely is a straight business, most of the arrows go in a curve and are aimed to compensate that, being the weight, wind, the moving horse... etc

Those videos wirh people shooting at plate, are not how most of the arrow attacks usually go, either you shot a volley to the other army and you hit the mass of people or you shoot a rabbit at 20m. 

So yes, the rabbit, at 20m, standing still, with a direct, front facing shot will see their linen armor fail to stop the bolt and wish they had a rabbit plate or at least a clock (and run away)

But most of the people getting hit are nor static or close so I have to assume that most linen armors and wicker shields should be fairly efficient. 

For the ones that hit really well, you have special hits. 

* to have some context, Olympic archery is done at 50m for Composite Bows) and this is top of the art, cutting edge technology.

Edited April 2, 2022 by SevenSistersOfVinga

[Bill the barbarian]

18 hours ago, Kloster said:

I've seen Indian police using wicker shields during violent protests. They took a lot of beatings, including by swords. The only problem was that they don't provide cover against tear gas. In Delhi, this is a problem, but in Pavis, much less.

Nope, in Pavis one does not need a gas mask, but counter magic or a dispel magic might help with the City Harmony spell.