Inworld ways of increasing the number of spells available to cults

[whitelaughter]

A consideration for many Initiates is how few Rune spells they have access to – a total of 5 for Odayla, 3 of his own plus two from associated cults; Foundchild only offers 3 total! While they can increase their selection with Enchantments by becoming Rune Masters, that isn't easy, and surely every cult would like to increase their power base.

I'm most interested in Lhankor Mhy, so I'll show what I'd do with one of his cultists, but any cult has similar possibilities:

 

The obvious move is to create formal relationships with Friendly cults; shifting from Friendly to Associated. One example is already in the setting (at least, was in the boxed set) – Ernalda is always wife of the ruling local god; and the local ruling god is whoever is worshipped by the local king. Becoming a king is a worthy goal for any PC, and since the entire cult benefits if you succeed, you should gain the support of anyone in your cult. Of course, check first whether someone else is in the process of building a kingdom – while you don't get to be king, you do get a new spell sooner if they succeed. (The Sorcerers of Lhankor Mhy would want Ernalda to offer Absorption, given the high magic point costs of sorcery). Also, being Husband Protector makes members of your cult valid targets of the Bless Champion spell, which is a massive advantage.

(The simplest way to get subjects is to help people fleeing from the Lunar Empire to avoid being eaten by the Crimson Bat: they're already on the border, are desperate, and smart enough to act in their own best interests. Saving their lives is a great way to earn their loyalty. And if enough people flee, there won't be enough sacrifices, and the Crimson Bat will go on a rampage through the Lunar Empire!)

 

Given the gods are outside time, you can't create a truly 'new' link with any cult; you have to build on something from the past. Fortunately, there are multiple tools for collection raw material for assembling a legend that can be used in Worship ceremonies. Everyone has Divination. Sorcerers should have Logician, allowing them to boost useful Knowledge skills.

And there are many such skills: Celestial Lore; Cult Lore – both yours and theirs; Customs; Homeland Lore; Library Use if you've access to a library; Bureaucracy when dealing with either priesthood. All of these skills should be boosted and rolled to collect information and allies for building the Association.

The Lightbringers are the obvious starting point for Lhankor Mhy – a massive collection of shared legends, and already Associated with several. His Stasis Rune is probably why there isn't already a link with Mastakos. However since Guided Teleportation always returns to the same preprepared spot, an Association based on maintaining those spots has potential; an announcement that these sites may be established at any library/temple, and will be maintained by the LM cult, should create an Association. (Of course, many Bureaucracy and Fast Talk rolls will be needed to get this to happen!)

Eurmal already offers a spell to both Lhankor Mhy and Issaries – that is functionally useless to both cults. Clever Tongue requires either Illusion or Disorder; Harmony is required for the Associated spells from both Issaries and Chalana Arroy. The Doylist explanation is that the writers screwed up, but I prefer the Watsonian explanation: Eurmal is being a pain.

As Eurmal provides Glamour to Orlanth, as a fellow Lightbringer, it would be worth consulting the Orlanth cult, or even Orlanth himself, to get Eurmal to provide Glamour to all Lightbringer cults. (Or, Reflection, the only other spell Eurmal offers that isn't dependent on Illusion). As leader of the Lightbringers, Orlanth could decree that this happen, and the Lhankor Mhy in return provides Find(substance): currently the only LM spell that doesn't require the Truth Rune.

 

Orlanth and Find(Substance) bring us to two other considerations:

Firstly, it is possible to have multiple trades with the same god, via different subcults. Orlanth Thunderous and Orlanth Adventurous gain and offer different spells. And there are four Orlanthi sub-cults!

Secondly, Find(Substance) is functionally an unlimited number of spells, so would be particularly tempting to offer the Foundchild, Odayla and Yinkin cults. As hunters, Find(spoor, salt, freshwater) would all tempt. Find(Blood) would be perfect, but if the restrictions on Detect spells also apply to Find, then the substance cannot be alive. (Ideally, a Find(substance) spell could be requested that performs differently depending on which Rune is used to power it; frex a Find(elemental weapon) spell would find swords if cast using Air, spears and bows if cast with Fire, etc).

 

Odayla is a particularly tempting cult to gain an Association with, given that allows your cultists to be targets of the Bear's Strength spell. Even if he lacks the power to grant a spell, that alone would justify being Associated. And as Orlanth's son, treating him as 'nephew', being son of a friend/leader, should be a basis for an Association.

 

Next: Command (Cult Spirit) and Summon (Cult Spirit) are common spells, but require Cult Spirits to summon: so it is possible to increase your selection simply by acquiring these spirits. For Sorcerers, the Summon(species) spell is the way to go here. Acquire their true names, either by overcoming their magic points or by then casting Identify Otherworld Entity, and then resummon them with extra duration with orders to spend POW to Initiate during a Worship ceremony, and you have a new spirit.

Lunes and Selenes are particularly tempting to offer to Eurmal; with Illusory(Sight), his cultists can create the moonrocks needed to Summon these elementals, and they can be Summoned using the Moon Rune rather than the Truth Rune. Finally, increasing the Lunar Empires hatred of Eurmal is tactically wise. As Eurmal is composed of multiple subcults, offering Lunes to one, and Selenes to another, in return for Reflection and Glamour respectively, is an option.

[EDIT] Another option I missed is upgrading existing spirits. Frex priestesses of the Ernalda cult could all summon earth elementals within a sorcerer's Protective Circle, and then have a single Gnome to Gargoyle spell cast, backed by 5 points of extension; then for the next year, whenever they summon that elemental, they get a gargoyle. Probably get Issaries to arrange trades, so that six priestesses are losing 1 spell each - and 5 of them getting their spell back at the end of the year.

Some gods 'own' a Rune – it isn't clear whether that helps in any way, but it is probably worth seeking to help your god acquire that. For Lhankor Mhy, that's the Truth Rune. The only other gods with the Truth Rune are Yelmalio and Humakt, both of whom provide mercenaries, so the starting link would be acquiring troops for your kingdom.

The only spell that Yelmalio offers that uses the Truth Rune is Command(Hawk). On the upside, he teaches Detect(gold) so would probably like to have Find(gold).

Humakt has no Associates, but his mistrust of others could be used as a basis for an Association. Suggest that he offer Oath, with any Sage taking it having to use it to swear an Oath to never betray or deliberately mislead a Humakti. Some Humakti are Gifted weapons that do extra weapon to a species of their choice – providing extra benefits to any who choose a Chaotic target species would be appropriate for Lightbringer cults.

 

Finally, Apotheosis: surprisingly easy. You only need a friendly Shaman and 10 worshippers: and spirits presumably count. As a member of your cult, you are already in a relationship with your god, creating an Association. And godkings are an established part of the bronze age – normally you'd become a king first, but looking at the comparative difficulties, being a godling may be your stepping stone to kingship!

Edited November 9, 2022 by whitelaughter

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

As Eurmal provides Glamour to Orlanth, as a fellow Lightbringer, it would be worth consulting the Orlanth cult, or even Orlanth himself, to get Eurmal to provide Glamour to all Lightbringer cults. (Or, Reflection, the only other spell Eurmal offers that isn't dependent on Illusion). As leader of the Lightbringers, Orlanth could decree that this happen, and the Lhankor Mhy in return provides Find(substance): currently the only LM spell that doesn't require the Truth Rune.

It's not a matter of decree, although that might be possible. It's normally a matter of there being a story in which one god helped another or learned something from another. You need to find that story and go live it in a heroquest that others can then repeat.

I'm not ruling out the decree method entirely, it is interesting. Merging the two together, you'd have to find a myth where Orlanth is giving orders to the tribe and have him order Eurmal to glam everyone up, to show everyone how to make themselves more impressive or attractive. You'd need a friendly Eurmali to take the role during the quest, and hope that s/he doesn't do something naughty at the same time!

2 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Orlanth and Find(Substance) bring us to two other considerations:

Firstly, it is possible to have multiple trades with the same god, via different subcults. Orlanth Thunderous and Orlanth Adventurous gain and offer different spells. And there are four Orlanthi sub-cults!

Again, it's not a trade. It's a matter of who-did-what-in-the-god-time.

2 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Odayla is a particularly tempting cult to gain an Association with, given that allows your cultists to be targets of the Bear's Strength spell. Even if he lacks the power to grant a spell, that alone would justify being Associated. And as Orlanth's son, treating him as 'nephew', being son of a friend/leader, should be a basis for an Association.

Oh yes very much! I wonder, as we know that Odayla is mostly worshipped as a subcult of Orlanth (and that the independent cult given in the rules is something of an unusual exception) then would all Orlanth associates count as valid targets? I think that's a bit of a stretch.

2 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Next: Command (Cult Spirit) and Summon (Cult Spirit) are common spells, but require Cult Spirits to summon: so it is possible to increase your selection simply by acquiring these spirits. For Sorcerers, the Summon(species) spell is the way to go here. Acquire their true names, either by overcoming their magic points or by then casting Identify Otherworld Entity, and then resummon them with extra duration with orders to spend POW to Initiate during a Worship ceremony, and you have a new spirit.

You can't order an entity to join a cult. Ordering them to spend POW in any way at all has always been a no-no. And yes, I do wish that this kind of semi-rule were more explicit.

2 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Finally, Apotheosis: surprisingly easy. You only need a friendly Shaman and 10 worshippers: and spirits presumably count.

Really? 

Edited November 9, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Richard S.]

I don't know why but my "Detect God-Learner" wards are going off like crazy right now

[David Scott]

While these are great ideas for your game, I've never had this problem. Small minor cults are specialists in what they do, and I would find little use in expanding any cults rune spells. Spell trading is already within Issaries remit and that's enough for me.

As for Lhankor Mhy, the player in my game is already overly excited about finding or creating new sorcery spells and learning as many lores as they can!

2 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Humakt has no Associates, but his mistrust of others could be used as a basis for an Association.

It's not mistrust. Bear in mind that Humakt has no associates for a reason! - He severed his kinship ties. Humakt is friendly to Orlanth & Yinkin, and neutral to every one else except the Seven Mothers who he hates.

 

[Joerg]

Look up "Spirit Cults".

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Humakt has no Associates, but his mistrust of others could be used as a basis for an Association. Suggest that he offer Oath, with any Sage taking it having to use it to swear an Oath to never betray or deliberately mislead a Humakti. Some Humakti are Gifted weapons that do extra weapon to a species of their choice – providing extra benefits to any who choose a Chaotic target species would be appropriate for Lightbringer cults.

30 minutes ago, David Scott said:

It's not mistrust. Bear in mind that Humakt has no associates for a reason! - He severed his kinship ties. Humakt is friendly to Orlanth & Yinkin, and neutral to every one else except the Seven Mothers who he hates.

Humakt indeed severed his kinship ties, and then forged a new relationship with Orlanth as his thane based on mutual respect rather than inherent authority.

If you want to play around with this, then to me that is compatible exactly what you are proposing! That Humakt has no inherent set-in-stone associations, but that such associations can be forged. Some clans or tribes or temples might know that Humakt is associated with Orlanth, or Yinkin, or Eurmal (after all, that's where Humakt got Death from), or such associations might be established in play - perhaps only effective for the individuals involved - through questing.

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

perhaps only effective for the individuals involved - through questing.

that is my own answer. cultists have few rune spells. If they want more "high" magic -not spirit spell- they have to explore the god plane(s), for them or for their community (in a less powerful version).

[whitelaughter]

22 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm not ruling out the decree method entirely, it is interesting. Merging the two together, you'd have to find a myth where Orlanth is giving orders to the tribe and have him order Eurmal to glam everyone up, to show everyone how to make themselves more impressive or attractive. You'd need a friendly Eurmali to take the role during the quest, and hope that s/he doesn't do something naughty at the same time!

Oh yes, but the smart thing is to expect and plan for him doing something naughty; it has to be in keeping with his myth as well, after all. Given the protagonists now have superhuman CHA, adding an undesired admirer to the mix is the obvious way to go.

Edited November 10, 2022 by whitelaughter

[whitelaughter]

Thanks to everyone for courteous and constructive quotes!

Will try and work through them all!

[PhilHibbs]

18 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that is my own answer. cultists have few rune spells. If they want more "high" magic -not spirit spell- they have to explore the god plane(s), for them or for their community (in a less powerful version).

Also this. Creating an association that others can use would require repetition of the quest over a long period, my simplistic understanding is that it gets refined down to a simple worship ceremony that almost anyone can do by rote. You do it once, you only get it for yourself. Or you get a much weaker version that others can use, such as a new spirit spell that can be taught.

Edited November 10, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[whitelaughter]

23 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can't order an entity to join a cult. Ordering them to spend POW in any way at all has always been a no-no. And yes, I do wish that this kind of semi-rule were more explicit.

Suspect that this semi-rule has died a horrible death.

For starters, you can strip 1D3 POW off a Disease Spirit when you defeat it, going into your personal POW; having it clobbered during a Worship ritual would result in it 'sacrificing' the POW and so going the cult.

For non-intelligent spirits, there simply isn't an intellect to 'chose' whether to spend POW. Even if you couldn't directly force the POW expenditure, if you know the drives of the spirit, you could set up situations where following its nature requires spending the POW (frex ordering a Shade to stay in the sunlight until it has done so).

For fixed INT spirits, skills such as Understand Herd Beast can be used to work out how to get agreement.

For normal INT spirits, all of the options available for recruiting human initiates are available. Additionally you can make them spend all of their magic points to get a 95% chance of success at Worship, and so get an experience check for Worship, making Cult membership more tempting. Ordering it to Augment with a cult Rune also mean an experience check that pushes it towards your cult. The priest will be using Orate, you can use fast Talk, and if you are a bit of a psychopath or dealing with a spirit too dangerous to let go, back up Intimidate with the threat of ordering it to fly into the maw of the Crimson Bat.

Thed Cultists would probably order a spirit to use opposed Power Runes, and Fumble them, clipping 1D10% from them, and so adding 1D10% to the desired Runes.

 

[EDIT] Ernaldi of course will simply use the Arouse Passion spell; Devotion(Ernalda) 80% will ensure the spirit says "Yes please" to Initiation.

Edited November 10, 2022 by whitelaughter

[whitelaughter]

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Humakt indeed severed his kinship ties, and then forged a new relationship with Orlanth as his thane based on mutual respect rather than inherent authority.

If you want to play around with this, then to me that is compatible exactly what you are proposing! That Humakt has no inherent set-in-stone associations, but that such associations can be forged. Some clans or tribes or temples might know that Humakt is associated with Orlanth, or Yinkin, or Eurmal (after all, that's where Humakt got Death from), or such associations might be established in play - perhaps only effective for the individuals involved - through questing.

Here Lhankor Mhy has an advantage in that both the Logician and Logical Clarity spells are taught by the cult, and suppress Passions, allowing the Scribe to interact with the Humakti in a similarly dispassionate way.

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Suspect that this semi-rule has died a horrible death.

I see no evidence for that at all, and it certainly isn't true in my game.

5 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

For non-intelligent spirits, there simply isn't an intellect to 'chose' whether to spend POW.

So non-intelligent spirits can't sacrifice POW. Fine by me. Or if they can, it's just something that happens according to their nature. Perhaps you could learn the conditions under which they naturally leak POW into natural magical processes and take advantage of that, but that isn't coercing sacrifice. It's just good old fashioned plundering of loot.

"Oh, when these fertility spirits gain POW, it ends up in the Passion Peaches of Pennel. The party shaman will follow one of the spirits that he knows has a high POW, and when it drops, we use Second Sight to find and harvest the peach, and...." then whatever, anything from a free point of POW to add to an enchant, to give to a Wyter, or the peach stone becomes a Bless Crops or Preserve Food matrix that can be recharged at the local earth/fertility worship.

So yes, there might be ways of harnessing the power of spirits, but not a simple "Dominate! GIVE POW!" That would be a fast way to get attacked by the spirit's natural allies.