Protective Circle

[PhilHibbs]

Moving from another thread...

On 2/21/2023 at 4:17 AM, whitelaughter said:

Remember not to cast Disruption in your own Protective Circle. Having all of your own hit locations being valid targets for an attack spell may offend.... 😛

On 2/22/2023 at 11:15 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Disruption isn't a protective spell. Neither is Resurrection.

12 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

They don't have to be, quite unlike Bless Champion.

You're right... but I see attack spells cast on it as protecting the circle from invasion. It is a protective circle, after all, and the word has to have some meaning. Resurrection is a big stretch.

Also I suspect that it's only intended to work with sorcery spells, although it doesn't say that. And the "...attacks as if it were cast by a person with 1 POW" seems to fit more with non-sorcery magic, as sorcery predominantly (perhaps always?) uses the spell strength in place of the caster's POW. I feel an errata question coming on!

*Edit* Already covered. It does work with spirit and rune.

[PhilHibbs]

Also, casting Disruption on your own Protective Circle is fine, as attack spells only affect people entering it. You're already in it.

[Shiningbrow]

I certainly agree that the name of the spell has virtually no bearing (or, at maximum, only 50%) on the description of the spell. I, too, would think that all spells cast on it must be protective in nature, although the bit about attack spells working when crossing the boundary do confuse that.

Resurrection is a huge leap over to another continent... Personally, I wouldn't allow it, especially since it requires going into spirit combat with deceased's spirit.

Next question - does this spell over-ride the incompatibility issue?

[whitelaughter]

The name of the spell is just carry over from previous editions, when it could only hold one of three specifically named protective sorcery spells. It's like the northern most part of Scotland being called Sutherland (south land) - it's a historical curiosity.

You're certainly quoting the text correctly, but how is an instant spell is meant to wait? Besides, anyone or anything is a valid target for Disruption.

Resurrection is tied to the body. No body, no Resurrection. It's really just a beefed up Create Ghost spell, so there should be no problems.

Don't see how it can override incompatibility. Cast an incompatible spell, it just bounces off everyone, as they are covered by the first spell.

 

[PhilHibbs]

33 minutes ago, whitelaughter said:

You're certainly quoting the text correctly, but how is an instant spell is meant to wait? Besides, anyone or anything is a valid target for Disruption.

I wouldn't have a problem with the spell keeping the disruption on hold for the first valid target, then it's gone.

[PhilHibbs]

...but I suppose since the circle covers everyone inside with defensive spells, is it supposed to cover everyone that enters with attack spells? Maybe. That's super powerful! A room that befuddles everyone that goes in, boosted with 30 MP... depends how duration works... ah, the Q&A makes it clear that the circle's duration does not affect the stacked spell's duration, so two minutes later you've got no Befuddle spell. Rune spells with lots of extension, then!

Edited February 27, 2023 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

Some ideas are just so abusive that they needed to go into a different thread...

[whitelaughter]

Protective Circle is self balancing because it can be used both to aid and hurt. Use it to aid your friends? Enemies can use it to hurt you. Use it to hurt your enemies? They can use it to boost themselves.

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Protective Circle is self balancing because it can be used both to aid and hurt. Use it to aid your friends? Enemies can use it to hurt you. Use it to hurt your enemies? They can use it to boost themselves.

Any boost they cast (if indeed anyone can cast spells on it - there's nothing in the spell description to stop it, but it does seem a little odd) will boost you as well as them. And they can't use it to hurt you unless you are outside it and come inside.

Maybe there should be some way to put a user condition on the spell so only friendlies can cast onto it.

Edited February 28, 2023 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

Is Fanaticism an attack spell?

If it is not an attack spell, then when you put up your Protective Circle, an enemy can cast it to make you, your allies, their mounts, familiars, and bound spirits all fanatical. That might not be ideal, especially if your healers are all in the circle.

If it is an attack spell, then the enemy can throw it on your Protective Circle so that when they charge in to attack your magical unit, they all get Fanaticism on them. And I think it's widely accepted that you can choose not to resist a spell cast on you.

Or is it conditional? Is it up to the recipient whether they treat it as an attack or not? If so then the people in the circle can treat it as an attack and therefore it doesn't even affect them (as they are not entering the circle from outside), and the casters have to charge in, resist it, and hope it overcomes them. I don't think you can both choose to treat it as an attack spell, and then choose not to resist it! Maybe if you are illuminated...

[whitelaughter]

On 3/1/2023 at 1:34 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Is Fanaticism an attack spell?

If it is not an attack spell, then when you put up your Protective Circle, an enemy can cast it to make you, your allies, their mounts, familiars, and bound spirits all fanatical. That might not be ideal, especially if your healers are all in the circle.

If it is an attack spell, then the enemy can throw it on your Protective Circle so that when they charge in to attack your magical unit, they all get Fanaticism on them. And I think it's widely accepted that you can choose not to resist a spell cast on you.

Or is it conditional? Is it up to the recipient whether they treat it as an attack or not? If so then the people in the circle can treat it as an attack and therefore it doesn't even affect them (as they are not entering the circle from outside), and the casters have to charge in, resist it, and hope it overcomes them. I don't think you can both choose to treat it as an attack spell, and then choose not to resist it! Maybe if you are illuminated...

If you cast fanaticism, everyone will be affected. So yes, very effective response to an enemy circle.

[whitelaughter]

On 2/28/2023 at 9:15 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe there should be some way to put a user condition on the spell so only friendlies can cast onto it.

When this edition was launched, Runequest was 40 years old. The window for rules modifications closed a generation ago. "It's not a bug, it's a feature" is the only way to go now.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

When this edition was launched, Runequest was 40 years old. The window for rules modifications closed a generation ago. "It's not a bug, it's a feature" is the only way to go now.

An alarming portion of this community is of that generation, or only half a generation away from it. Our experience is that of a living and changing document, with freezes to an invariable state only a temporary thing.

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

When this edition was launched, Runequest was 40 years old. The window for rules modifications closed a generation ago. "It's not a bug, it's a feature" is the only way to go now.

Sorcery as a rules mechanic didn't exist 40 years ago, and sorcery 30 years ago was substantially different to the current edition so I don't think that that argument holds water.

Actually now I think about it it was only 39 years ago so I was technically correct but only by a sliver!

Edited March 5, 2023 by PhilHibbs

[Zalain]

Hello all.

First of all, excuse me for my english i dont speak/write fluently but i will try to explain myself.

 

The first rule Roleplaying Glorantha book says is "MAXIMUM GAME FUN". You may change rules to make the game funnier, or as i think: make them logical and playable. The Roleplaying Glorantha Q&A is not an exception and i think twice before apply some of the "corrected" rules.

In this case, Roleplaying Glorantha Q&A doesnt explain how Protective Circle works: only that works with any kind of magic.

i have adapted old RQ3 Sorcery to Roleplayinng Glorantha sorcery, adding techniques and runes to many to those old spells. This way my characters can "choose" (or at least have more options) than given in Roleplaying Glorantha.

Protective Circle spell of RQ3 and Roleplaying Glorantha are quite different, but have similarities. i recommend to read the Protective Circle of RQ3 to make a better idea. They are not the same, but the old one helped me understand what i want from the new one.

 

Having a spell in which makes other spells affect to whoever gets inside from a sphere let players to do their strategy. The name of the spell confuse the properties of it.

 

HOW I INTERPRETATE PROTECTIVE CIRCLE:

you can launch protective spells to it, but just know if enemy comes inside, will be protected too.

You can launch attack spells to it, but just know if any ally comes inside, will be damaged too JUST ONCE... (if goes out and comes in again, will be damaged again).

You can launch heal spells and anyone inside will be healed.

You can launch demoralize, fanatism, berserk, and who go inside the circle will be affected too, but who leaves it wont be affected more.

You can launch animate dead, and all corpses inside will follow your orders, but would fall if leave the circle.

 

what i forbid to my players is create a protection circle over their helmet and the area moves where the helmets go. No. the circle must be as big as the area you want to cover. if you cast it to your helmet, only will affect your head.

 

hope have help

 

Zalain

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

On 3/4/2023 at 11:34 PM, whitelaughter said:

When this edition was launched, Runequest was 40 years old. The window for rules modifications closed a generation ago. "It's not a bug, it's a feature" is the only way to go now.

I just re-read Protective Circle in RQ3 and what you're saying makes no sense at all.

39 years ago, spells on a Protective Circle could only be cast simultaneously by the same sorcerer using Multispell, and only three specific defensive spells could be applied. Enemies and allies couldn't pile extra spells on top of it. So this spell - which people are arguing can be stacked on by anyone - is a change made only a few years ago. Claiming that this is "a bug, not a feature" due to history is clearly incorrect, because (if it is indeed possible, and the line "only the caster can stack additional spells on a circle" is simply missing) it's new in the latest edition.

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, Zalain said:

HOW I INTERPRETATE PROTECTIVE CIRCLE:

you can launch protective spells to it, but just know if enemy comes inside, will be protected too.

I don't think that people entering after the spells are cast will get protected.

12 hours ago, Zalain said:

You can launch attack spells to it, but just know if any ally comes inside, will be damaged too JUST ONCE... (if goes out and comes in again, will be damaged again).

Yes.

12 hours ago, Zalain said:

You can launch heal spells and anyone inside will be healed.

Ooh that's a good one. I'm not entirely convinced that instant spells are replicated, but there's nothing in the wording to say that they aren't.

12 hours ago, Zalain said:

You can launch demoralize, fanatism, berserk, and who go inside the circle will be affected too, but who leaves it wont be affected more.

Not convinced, see first point. I think only "attack spells" are triggered on people entering, whatever that means!

12 hours ago, Zalain said:

You can launch animate dead, and all corpses inside will follow your orders, but would fall if leave the circle.

Another great idea!

12 hours ago, Zalain said:

what i forbid to my players is create a protection circle over their helmet and the area moves where the helmets go. No. the circle must be as big as the area you want to cover. if you cast it to your helmet, only will affect your head.

Absolutely.

[PhilHibbs]

All my replies are based entirely on the current wording of the spell, except where otherwise indicated. Maybe that's right.

Going back to the RQ3 spell for inspiration, it would be clear that if this iteration is simply an attempt to recreate that within the new mechanics, i.e. there is no Multispell, then you have to allow the caster to put the protective spells on afterwards.

Was it intentional to open this up to anyone casting spells on it? Maybe not.

It clearly was intentional to open it up to attack spells, using the Damage Resistance model from the original. Should that also open up ambiguous is-it-attack-or-isn't-it spells like Fanaticism?

Should touch spells like healing be allowed? Particularly, could you send in your shock troops who get cut down by the defenders, then Heal Body on the defenders' Protective Circle to get all your guys back into the fight? I'm really not sure that that is what the spell is supposed to be for!

[PhilHibbs]

So we have a Q&A ruling now - offensive spells cast on a Protective Circle only trigger on a single target entering and then they're gone.

This implies that the distinction as to whether a spell is a defensive or protective spell is determined when the spell is cast - this Shield is a protective spell that affects everyone inside and does NOT trigger on enemies entering, this Fanaticism is an offensive spell that will affect the first target to come in (and has to be cast five times to affect the first five targets to come in).

[Scotty]

22 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

So we have a Q&A ruling now - offensive spells cast on a Protective Circle only trigger on a single target entering and then they're gone.

This implies that the distinction as to whether a spell is a defensive or protective spell is determined when the spell is cast - this Shield is a protective spell that affects everyone inside and does NOT trigger on enemies entering, this Fanaticism is an offensive spell that will affect the first target to come in (and has to be cast five times to affect the first five targets to come in).

Correct.

[PhilHibbs]

That's an interesting way to handle it (and, of course, individual groups are welcome to roll their own interpretations). Replicating defensive spells over all the friendlies inside, that's pretty powerful. But the alternative interpretation where it would replicate a single offensive spell against everyone entering? Well I guess Warding does that, so there is a precedent.

What this version does miss from the original is the Damage Resistance effect, where anyone trying to enter would have to overcome the Damage Resistance with their STR or be unable to enter. Ward Against Weapons is essentially identical to Damage Resistance so it would be easy to patch that behaviour back in if desired.

And remember, you have to be within the circle to cast spells on the circle.

[whitelaughter]

Yeah, that makes the spell utterly broken; with no weakness to the spell, possession of it assures victory in every battle.

The only way to block it is by using incompatible 'defensive' spells - take out the Shield spell that is over everyone by using a boosted Spirit Block to override it. And as you've pointed out, need to be in the circle to do that. And getting close when warrior in the circle is under powerful spells? Good luck with that.

[PhilHibbs]

It used to be constrained a little by having to multispell the defensive spells with it, so that would chip away at the points of manipulation that you can muster. That's gone now because each spell is independently cast and can even be cast by a different person (the spell says nothing on whether the caster is the only one that can do that, so a straight reading would imply that they are not the only one).

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Yeah, that makes the spell utterly broken; with no weakness to the spell, possession of it assures victory in every battle.

The only way to block it is by using incompatible 'defensive' spells - take out the Shield spell that is over everyone by using a boosted Spirit Block to override it. And as you've pointed out, need to be in the circle to do that. And getting close when warrior in the circle is under powerful spells? Good luck with that.

Noooo..... Powerful? yes. Broken? No. Utterly broken? Not at all.

Sure, it seems good at first sight, but then you just need to do the maths...

This is one spell that really needs to have all 3 Manipulations to work. Without the Intensity, it's not going to be very strong, and thus nor will any other spells cast upon it. So, just there, minimum of 6 point to be even vaguely useful (for a Shield 3, for example), and you probably want another 2-4 points on top of that.

Next, you need to increase the size of it, or again, not much is going to happen with it. This is calculated as 1/10th its Range... so, no manipulation gets you only 1m radius. Realistically, you want at least a 5m radius (4 points), maybe more depending on who you want in it.

Next, the spell is immobile, unless you've got something that allows a 5m+ radius circle to move. (Unless GM rules that only the initial caster needs to be on the vehicle.. which I would doubt). So, great, you'll have a powerful defensive circle that can't be moved - while enemy forces in a battle can move away from...

Which leads us to real range - of other spells. Spirit magic spells only go 50m, and Rune magic to 160m... Which is reasonable for most battles, but if the enemy is mobile, and you're not, does become problematic. Sure, you have your other Sorcery spells (or do you?), but they'll take more range to cast ... 160m is already 7 points of your manipulations...

How long do you want it to last? If you're looking at large-scale pitched battles, you want 6 hours (7 pts). Ok, if it's only for a short skirmish, then you might only want 1 or 2 points in it (up to 20mins) - but it's still points taken away from the others.

So, calculating all of that - 8 (Strength) + 4 (radius) + 2 minimum (duration) = 14 MPs for a basic Protective Circle to allow any spells up to 8mps equivalent to be cast on it, for everyone within a 5m radius (15-20 people with arm space, none lying down) for 20 mins... who can't move out of the Circle without losing the protections on it. Which also means all those people within it make for a great target!

 

Alternatively, if you are only looking at a quick skirmish, then casting time becomes a HUGE factor. Realistically, it's going to be a good 30 seconds or more just to get this Circle in place... and that's assuming those attacking you haven't noticed you standing there alone chanting like made for all that time, and left you alone. Like all sorcery, it's a huge time sink to fail (and it's going to take a LONG time to get this spell's skill level high enough to be very certain it's going to take*. That's pretty risky in any battle!

(*ok, you could maybe get a fairly high starting percentage if you chose that one and only** at character creation - 30% Occupation + 25% Personal Bonus + maybe another 15 from Stats = 70%, plus maybe a attuned item for 10-20% if you're very lucky. And if you're doing this, are you going to then put up other other spells yourself, or are you expecting... nay, requiring... other people to provide those spells? If it's yourself, then what are the chances of being able to cast them onto it? Cos, again, that skill percentage isn't going to be great, and you've just spent a while casting your Circle, and just done yourself out of a pile of MPs.)

(**Otherwise, it's only +10% for Occupational skill)

 

So, my reading of this spell - very handy in keeping your command post, healers, or mages safe (probably), but that's about all. It's not a reliable game changer. (I could definitely see its use in something like the Cradle scenario - but that's quite a difference scenario compared to most others, and the players would need to have some idea about what's coming. The armies of the Western lands would use it regularly and effectively, but again, not the thing that wins their battles.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Shiningbrow

[PhilHibbs]

Also remember to take into account the casting time and MP cost of the spells that you lay onto the circle. Sure, if it's rune magic then that's pretty quick, but it requires you to have a mixed sorcery and rune magic group.