Protective Circle

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also remember to take into account the casting time and MP cost of the spells that you lay onto the circle. Sure, if it's rune magic then that's pretty quick, but it requires you to have a mixed sorcery and rune magic group.

While you do have to take them into account, I don't think it's worth bothering about as a pro/con for this spell, as those spells were likely to be cast anyway... except now they're affecting a much larger number of people.

[Shiningbrow]

I just had a thought, which I put in Munchkinnery thread.

"Now, how to find a way to make this Circle mobile... <snip>

(actually, this is a non-question, because sorcerers can create their own spells, and so could just make a mobile version of it! One simple change would be to make it Active instead of its current Passive.)

[PhilHibbs]

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

"Now, how to find a way to make this Circle mobile... <snip>

(actually, this is a non-question, because sorcerers can create their own spells, and so could just make a mobile version of it! One simple change would be to make it Active instead of its current Passive.)

I don't accept the assumption that absolutely everything is possible, or alternatively, easy enough to be worthwhile.

[whitelaughter]

Thanks for the response, but consider how low you need the options. Intensity of 1 lets you cover a unit of archers with Fanaticism and Speedart, 2 lets you add Strength or Coordination; even low levels of Heal, Mobility and Protection can be devastating. Intensity 2 also allows 1 point Rune spells - and Extension is a separate spell.

Duration can be left at base if you are only using spirit magic, a single additional point allows you Rune spells, another if extended. The only time to go for a really high duration is if you muck around with Bless Champion, with day long spirit spells. (Since the 'POW' of any spell is based on the magic points added to the circle, Reflection can then be made near certain! )

Range is the biggie - with a geometrical increase in size, numbers benefiting climbs rapidly. Note that platforms can be raised to add extra archers, shafts sunk to cover healers etc. This can easily cover hundreds of archers.

The 'default' sorcerer is going to be a Lhankor Mhy cultist, guaranteeing access to Rune magical and magical allies.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Duration can be left at base if you are only using spirit magic, a single additional point allows you Rune spells, another if extended. The only time to go for a really high duration is if you muck around with Bless Champion, with day long spirit spells. (Since the 'POW' of any spell is based on the magic points added to the circle, Reflection can then be made near certain! )

A 10-minute Protective Circle isn't going to be useful in many situations. If it's a quick skirmish then the casting time becomes a problem. Maybe if you have a well laid ambush it could work, but it is wasted if the enemy retreats.

And I'm not sure about your logic on Reflection. It only reflects spells that fail to overcome the target's POW, and Protective Circle doesn't affect that at all.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Intensity of 1 lets you cover a unit of archers with Fanaticism and Speedart

How many do you have in your units??? If they're huddled together, then maybe. And I don't think you really want them huddling up.

Also, Speedart is cast upon the missile, not the person. So, RAW, wouldn't work (just as Bladesharp or Bludgeon shoudn't).

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't accept the assumption that absolutely everything is possible, or alternatively, easy enough to be worthwhile.

Neither do I.

But I also refuse to accept that something should be difficult or nerfed just because it's powerful or good.

From a purely world-building  perspective, there's no good reason that there shouldn't be a mobile version of this spell. Just as there's going to be Enhance POW.

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Neither do I.

But I also refuse to accept that something should be difficult or nerfed just because it's powerful or good.

From a purely world-building  perspective, there's no good reason that there shouldn't be a mobile version of this spell. Just as there's going to be Enhance POW.

I disagree. There can be good reasons, if we want there to be good reasons.

"We explored the nodes that were exploited to create the Protective Circle, but were unable to find a connection to the Movement Rune that could be used without dangerously destabilizing the circle. It turns out that the relevant nodes were all too close to a potent Stasis Rune node, and whilst the rune itself is not necessary to the casting of the spell, its presence in the area of the matrix meant that connecting to the Movement Rune created an unfortunate interaction."

There you go. There's a world-building reason why a Protective Circle can't be moved. If you think about it, it's even logical because the dome shape looks like a Stasis Rune so it should have been obvious that moving it would be challenging!

In general, I'm not a fan of creating a spell "just like this other spell, but with a really useful addition and no down side, or one so trivial that it makes the original spell obsolete". If there's a down side to a spell, then some Zzaburi would have probably tried to work around it already. Therefore it's perfectly justifiable to say that there is no easy workaround.

Edited March 27, 2023 by PhilHibbs

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There can be good reasons, if we want there to be good reasons.

But you can apply that reasoning to anything, which feels to me like "GM doesn't want player to have more powerful spell" - not "the gameworld doesn't actually support such a spell" (or skill, or ability, or whatever it happens to be).

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

In general, I'm not a fan of creating a spell "just like this other spell, but with a really useful addition and no down side, or one so trivial that it makes the original spell obsolete". If there's a down side to a spell, then some Zzaburi would have probably tried to work around it already. Therefore it's perfectly justifiable to say that there is no easy workaround.

As we've said before, the RQG (and any other book) does not represent the entirety of Glorantha. So, maybe the Zzaburi have got that spell. But, as it currently stands from our current interpretations, LMs may not have yet figured it out yet. Or put it through the ARM. Or whatever reason you want (yep, that above reasoning goes for this as well).

As for any differences in the spell - Obviously, you may want to add a Movement Rune, thus including a higher casting cost (I don't agree with your Stasis bit, because it's not part of the original). It will clearly go from Passive to Active. I don't know if you consider that "trivial" or not, but it's a huge problem for those wanting to use it as a mobile fortress - it really does make the impact really anti-climactic.

Add to that the effects of what happens when that concentration roll is failed... I'd suggest that all those other spells laid on it dissipate. (I think I'll ask @Scotty...)

[whitelaughter]

22 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But I also refuse to accept that something should be difficult or nerfed just because it's powerful or good.

From a purely world-building  perspective, there's no good reason that there shouldn't be a mobile version of this spell. Just as there's going to be Enhance POW.

There already is: "if cast on something mobile (for example a ship's deck), the circle moves with it."

A 1-metre circle could be cast on a large shield; 2-metre on a chariot, 3+ on a wagon or carpet.

[Shiningbrow]

21 minutes ago, whitelaughter said:

There already is: "if cast on something mobile (for example a ship's deck), the circle moves with it."

A 1-metre circle could be cast on a large shield; 2-metre on a chariot, 3+ on a wagon or carpet.

Firstly, you know it's radius, not diameter - right? So, it'd be a 1m radius, so 2m diameter - much larger than a shield.

But, the bigger issue is having something big enough to move that's actually useful (ie, not merely for only 1-3 people). I don't disagree that there is some movement allowed, but other than on a ship (or maybe a wagon), it's not going to be significantly effective the way the immobile version is.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

There already is: "if cast on something mobile (for example a ship's deck), the circle moves with it."

A 1-metre circle could be cast on a large shield; 2-metre on a chariot, 3+ on a wagon or carpet.

I'm not interested in arguing the specifics. My point is, there can be in-world reasons that things that haven't been done are difficult. And if someone says "I want a spell that's like the one in the book, but better in every way" I'm probably going to say "no".

Edited March 28, 2023 by PhilHibbs

[Scotty]

In one of my games, one of the Lunar Sorcerers (Free INT 12) would cast Protective Circle on the caravan leader or the Storm Bull on the Full Moon. Strength 1, Range 1, Duration 10 for 11 magic points /2  6 and then boost it with their remaining 10 or so. Others would then add spirit magic to it (protection usually and in one case spirit screen). This was about the limit of effectiveness of the spell due to the casting time vs duration and free INT. The player figured out that the most effective use of sorcery is its duration over other forms of magic. Everyone had Boon of Karan Tor for a season. The real limiting actor is free INT. For the Lunars this is likely a very effective spell in the hands of the Lunar Colleges of Magic with specialists assigned just to cast this.

[Scotty]

In one of my games, one of the Lunar Sorcerers (Free INT 12) would cast Protective Circle on the caravan leader or the Storm Bull on the Full Moon. Strength 1, Range 1, Duration 10 for 11 magic points /2  6 and then boost it with their remaining 10 or so. Others would then add spirit magic to it (protection usually and in one case spirit screen). This was about the limit of effectiveness of the spell due to the casting time vs duration and free INT. The player figured out that the most effective use of sorcery is its duration over other forms of magic. Everyone had Boon of Karan Tor for a season. The real limiting actor is free INT. For the Lunars this is likely a very effective spell in the hands of the Lunar Colleges of Magic with specialists assigned just to cast this.

[PhilHibbs]

On 3/28/2023 at 5:35 PM, Scotty said:

In one of my games, one of the Lunar Sorcerers (Free INT 12) would cast Protective Circle on the caravan leader or the Storm Bull on the Full Moon. Strength 1, Range 1, Duration 10 for 11 magic points /2  6 and then boost it with their remaining 10 or so. Others would then add spirit magic to it (protection usually and in one case spirit screen)...

You can't cast it on a mobile target that isn't itself a mobile 2m diameter platform, so the Storm Bull would have to remain stationary. Good luck with that, in my experience they like to go where the action is.

But cast on the lead caravan, the Protective Circle would be there for two days, and you just cast the protection spells as needed to cover the people inside for the next two minutes? That's pretty cool, a long duration "spell extender". A circle within the wagon 2m is protected, useful against missile fire, but you can't leave the wagon to fight anyone without losing the protection. They have to come to you. Or you hurtle the caravan around like a chariot... was the Storm Bull the charioteer?  🛒😄

Edited March 31, 2023 by PhilHibbs

[Scotty]

36 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

You can't cast it on a mobile target that isn't itself a mobile 2m diameter platform, so the Storm Bull would have to remain stationary.

The circle is immobile on whatever it has been cast—if cast on something mobile (for example, a ship’s deck), the circle moves with it.

The circle was cast on the Storm Bull, so was immobile on the Storm Bull (ie moved with her). With a Range of 1, the circle is 1/10 that gave a 1m radius around the Storm Bull.

36 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Good luck with that, in my experience they like to go where the action is.

Which was the point, as it forms layers of protection.

36 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

But cast on the lead caravan, the Protective Circle would be there for two days, and you just cast the protection spells as needed to cover the people inside for the next two minutes? That's pretty cool, a long duration "spell extender". A circle within the wagon 2m is protected, useful against missile fire, but you can't leave the wagon to fight anyone without losing the protection. They have to come to you.

It was purely defensive to stop the pack animals being taken down.

36 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Or you hurtle the caravan around like a chariot... was the Storm Bull the charioteer?  🛒😄

It was either mobile warrior protection or animal protection. It worked very well.

[PhilHibbs]

9 minutes ago, Scotty said:

The circle is immobile on whatever it has been cast—if cast on something mobile (for example, a ship’s deck), the circle moves with it.

The circle was cast on the Storm Bull, so was immobile on the Storm Bull (ie moved with her). With a Range of 1, the circle is 1/10 that gave a 1m radius around the Storm Bull.

I'm pretty sure "for example, a ship's deck" is supposed to indicate that it has to be on a platform big enough to hold the entire circle. Otherwise what's the point of saying that it's immobile? By that definition, Bladesharp "is immobile" because it can't go from one sword to another.

[Shiningbrow]

31 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm pretty sure "for example, a ship's deck" is supposed to indicate that it has to be on a platform big enough to hold the entire circle. Otherwise what's the point of saying that it's immobile? By that definition, Bladesharp "is immobile" because it can't go from one sword to another.

Precisely!

Speaking of precision, if the spell was supposed to be mobile for something smaller, then the example would be much clearer in what it be cast on to move. Using the ship's deck clearly indicates a large, (relatively) flat surface - not on a helmet or a person. After all, other than a building or wall or tree, what isn't mobile?? (such that it would need to be mentioned in the spell).

This needs to be Q&A'd/WoD'd... especially as to whether the entire Circle needs to fit on one continuous flat surface (eg, floor, carpet, ground, etc), or whether only most of it needs to be on the surface (ship's deck or wagon). Does the Circle even need to be cast on a flat surface?? Or, are we taking 'Circle' too literally?

[Bren]

On 3/31/2023 at 7:33 AM, Shiningbrow said:

After all, other than a building or wall or tree, what isn't mobile?? (such that it would need to be mentioned in the spell).

In the real world, I've seen a house jacked up from the foundation and  transported by road.

[Qizilbashwoman]

20 minutes ago, Bren said:

In the real world, I've seen a house jacked up from the foundation and  transported by road.

if you live in america you've probably seen a lot of these

[Qizilbashwoman]

On 3/31/2023 at 4:17 AM, Scotty said:

In one of my games, one of the Lunar Sorcerers (Free INT 12) would cast Protective Circle on the caravan leader or the Storm Bull on the Full Moon. Strength 1, Range 1, Duration 10 for 11 magic points /2  6 and then boost it with their remaining 10 or so. Others would then add spirit magic to it (protection usually and in one case spirit screen). This was about the limit of effectiveness of the spell due to the casting time vs duration and free INT. The player figured out that the most effective use of sorcery is its duration over other forms of magic. Everyone had Boon of Karan Tor for a season. The real limiting actor is free INT. For the Lunars this is likely a very effective spell in the hands of the Lunar Colleges of Magic with specialists assigned just to cast this.

scotty, how did your storm bulls get along with the lunars? i'm interested in this.

[Bren]

45 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

if you live in america you've probably seen a lot of these

No, at most a handful. In the US, we do a lot of green field construction. Because we have a lot of fields, in most locales our tax and other incentives favor new construction, and people who can afford it, tend to like building a new house, rather than fixing up an old house. But that's as much off topic as I should allow myself.

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, Bren said:

In the real world, I've seen a house jacked up from the foundation and  transported by road.

Well, true. And I've seen lots of trees get moved as well....

If the Circle hasn't been cut through on the house, I think it would remain intact.

[Scotty]

11 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

scotty, how did your storm bulls get along with the lunars? i'm interested in this.

None of them were chaotic, one of the sorcerers was part of a gloomy death cult (of the player's making), the other Seven Mothers, also not chaotic (and from the same clan as the Storm Bulls). Individually the Storm bulls found no chaos, and the seven mothers sorcerer even had a hate chaos passion (from the family histories section Killed by Chaos (broo, disease spirit, ogres, scorpion men, etc.). Gain Hate (Chaos).) The Storm Bulls, agreed that while they hated the Seven Mothers, these people seemed okay and also fought against chaos...