Ritual of Rebirth (Bagog)

[Peter Hart]

In the Ritual of Rebirth in the Bagog cult write-up in Cults of Terror (p36) it states that "Old weapon skills of the devoured will remain intact, as will former knowledge." I was wondering what happened to the devoured's INT, POW and CHA after they are reborn to the Scorpion Queen. Would these be the same as before or alternatively reduced in some way, perhaps capped at the species max for scorpion men (INT 14, POW 14 and CHA 21)?

Edited May 9, 2023 by Peter Hart

[Akhôrahil]

K’Rana in Lords of Terror has POW 22, as a reference. I’d say keep the stats.

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, Peter Hart said:

In the Ritual of Rebirth in the Bagog cult write-up in Cults of Terror (p36) it states that "Old weapon skills of the devoured will remain intact, as will former knowledge." I was wondering what happened to the devoured's INT, POW and CHA after they are reborn to the Scorpion Queen. Would these be the same as before or alternatively reduced in some way, perhaps capped at the species max for scorpion men (INT 14, POW 14 and CHA 21)?

You have to wonder how much the devoured's former personality survives along with their other memories.  It just adds to the horror of Chaos.

[metcalph]

Cults of Terror is rather ambiguous as to whether the devoured victim is the same person as the reborn scorpionfolk.  There's some passages therein that could be construed as the answer being yes but the actual ritual itself suggests no.  Lords of Terror enthusiastically rewrote the cult so that the answer was emphatically yes but there are serious philosophical issues about this (best exemplified in K'rana) that lead me to believe that the answer should have been no.

IMO the scorpionfolk acquires knowledges, skills, possibly some battle magic (depends on what El Jefe thinks) and some other memories when they ritually devour someone but they do not acquire the victim's core self.  At best, they are like the Alzabo, the gene wolf from the Sword of the Lictor series (itself based on some extravagant claims made in the 60s about flatworms and mRNA).  An intelligent scorpionfolk could try and use the memories to pretend to be the devoured victim but personality-wise they are quite different.

So the devoured's INT, POW and CHA are lost.  All that is left is some chaotically acquired memories.

[Akhôrahil]

I feel there’s more MGF meat in the reborn victim being a twisted version of the original, though. There’s more you can do with this than with mere chaos hordes, both as horror and tragedy.

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I feel there’s more MGF meat in the reborn victim being a twisted version of the original, though. There’s more you can do with this than with mere chaos hordes, both as horror and tragedy.

Depends on what you mean by twisted version, doesn't it?

If you mean that once in a while, a scorpionfolk arises that looks like the victim and even acts like it on occasions, that's something I'm happy with.

If you mean that the new scorpionfolk is the old victim twisted by chaos, then for me that's a step too far.  It means that Bagog somehow has the ability to come between a victim and their god and damn the victim irrevoacably.  If Bagog was one of the Great Old Ones on the scale of Hastur or Yog-Shoggoth, that might be believable but she's not.  She's a mere two-bit demon and one of the thicker ones to boot.  

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

If you mean that the new scorpionfolk is the old victim twisted by chaos, then for me that's a step too far.  It means that Bagog somehow has the ability to come between a victim and their god and damn the victim irrevoacably.  If Bagog was one of the Great Old Ones on the scale of Hastur or Yog-Shoggoth, that might be believable but she's not.  She's a mere two-bit demon and one of the thicker ones to boot.  

 

like a troll rebirth or things like that (after all scorpion folk and reborn troll follow the same process: be eaten, if I remember - not the book for a while-) or an aldryami (somewhere be eaten too)

this process of "digestion" seems very powerful (Argrath ate too, and some high priests, etc... so it seems, to me, that you don't need to be very awesome to do it)

[Peter Hart]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

You have to wonder how much the devoured's former personality survives along with their other memories.  It just adds to the horror of Chaos.

Exactly. Encountering someone you knew who had been devoured would certainly be a horrific experience, along the lines of meeting a friend who had been turned into a zombie. A new chaos dominated/tainted personality would definitely be in control for much of the time. In game turns maybe a significant hit to charisma, and also some passions would be affected.  Some knowledge could also be lost on a YGWV basis. 

[Peter Hart]

15 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

K’Rana in Lords of Terror has POW 22, as a reference. I’d say keep the stats.

Makes sense. Also consistent with for example Oakstump from Scorpion Hall p67.

[Peter Hart]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Cults of Terror is rather ambiguous as to whether the devoured victim is the same person as the reborn scorpionfolk.  There's some passages therein that could be construed as the answer being yes but the actual ritual itself suggests no.  Lords of Terror enthusiastically rewrote the cult so that the answer was emphatically yes but there are serious philosophical issues about this (best exemplified in K'rana) that lead me to believe that the answer should have been no.

IMO the scorpionfolk acquires knowledges, skills, possibly some battle magic (depends on what El Jefe thinks) and some other memories when they ritually devour someone but they do not acquire the victim's core self.  At best, they are like the Alzabo, the gene wolf from the Sword of the Lictor series (itself based on some extravagant claims made in the 60s about flatworms and mRNA).  An intelligent scorpionfolk could try and use the memories to pretend to be the devoured victim but personality-wise they are quite different.

So the devoured's INT, POW and CHA are lost.  All that is left is some chaotically acquired memories.

My own take (which is probably evolving as I read through the thread) is that more than one outcome is possible. The souls of some victims survive more or less intact but certainly tainted with chaos and with an affinity to the chaos rune, but others will have their soul largely destroyed along the lines that you suggest with the ability to recall some shadowy memories of the former personality and almost all of the former passions non existent.

[Squaredeal Sten]

I'm glad to know I'm not alone in seeing the ambiguity.

To me the Cults of Terror version which leans toward rolling scorp man stats, but many skills and memories carry over, Is preferable. 

(1) because: It does not prevent me as GM from having the scorpion man call out in the night "Hey Joe  it's your brother Bill, yes really me.  Come out and talk.*  That is enough horror show.  All it needs is some memories and language skill.

(2) And because  I don't have to deal with the question of why. If everything carries over, the reborn soul now has scorpion man loyalties and fights so wholeheartedly on the scorpion man side.  If the cults. Runes, and personality carried over then isn't it a challenge to account for the overriding scorpion man loyalty?

Edited May 11, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
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