Fire powers

[zoomzoombug]

Hi, 

To my understanding, Dawn Age Orlanthi thought Elmal was the Sun, but now in the Third Age, everyone agrees Yelm is the Sun, and Elmal is a narrow view of Yelmalio the Lightfore.

In the Dawn Age, did worshipping Elmal grant fire powers? If not, wouldn’t it have seemed weird that the fiery Sun Disk didn’t grant fire magic? 
Did the worship “go” to Elmal, who is Lightfore, or to the Sun Disk, associated with Yelm?

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

 

 

[metcalph]

No, Elmal had lost his fire powers as a result of being repeatedly defeated by Teller of Lies.  All that remained was his immortal self.  

When people worshipped Elmal (and other related deities) in the Long Night, they worshipped Lightfore.

The relationship between the Sun and Elmal was a major theological problem when the Sun returned at the Dawn and many peoples all over glorantha struggled for a solution for their god (Antirius, Kargzant, Halamalao etc).  An answer was provided by the Dara Happans who said that the Sun was Yelm.  This caused a lot of problems as the Elmali struggled to cope.  Nysalor's solution (that Elmal was really Daysenervus, a manifesteation of Yelm) proved unsatisfactory to the Orlanthi especially when it was used to persecute them.  It was a blessed relief when Arkat drove Nysalorans away.

So what happens if you were to worship the Sun instead of Lightfore?  I'm sure the Dawn Age Orlanthi must have tried this at some stage.  There's reference in the literature to the Sun Disk (best known as Ehilm but he may also be known as Ersonmoda).  When people worship it, it just seems to be a fire in the Sky and you can get some fire magics from it (much like Liege Light of the Young Elementals).  But because it is so far away, the fire magics are rather weak compared to the Lowfires and the Orlanthi would have just given up on it after a few years.  The Elmali and other Lightfore worshippers would have not found the worship of Ehilm useful because they couldn't use the fire powers that it provided.  It may be present in Sun Dome temples as a subservient deity as some solar powers will still be useful to have without having to go to those snotty Yelmic Yassholes.  

My thinking only FWIW.

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, zoomzoombug said:

wouldn’t it have seemed weird that the fiery Sun Disk didn’t grant fire magic?

I am afraid I don’t have a definitive answer for you, but maybe there are some ways to damp down the cognitive dissonance:

• Where the Orlanthi live, it is not that warm — a ‘northern sun’ as is not weird.
  (I cannot remember who deserves credit for that one, but it is not me. It is, anyway, too good to be one of mine).
• IRL what does the sun send us? . And our sun is a lot further away than Glorantha’s. suffices.
• The sun of Time is a feeble thing compared to the original and that is how Old Windybreeks likes it.
  Only a lunatic would yearn for the OG sun and the apocalypse that would bring.
• is what generates the sun’s , but it is that makes the crops grow.
• The sun is a thing of parts — Yelm disintegrates and all that.
  The Solar Mystery™ is that any isolated part is truly and fully the sun, the whole.
• The sun resents the Orlanthi, because of their god’s well-documented stabbiness, and won’t grant full solar powers.
• Invent the magnifying glass, converting to and become your own anti/quasi-Monrogh. We will call you Marilyn.
• What do a bunch of hillbilly barbarians really know about the Dawn Age?
• Elmal is the sun: is that Dawn Age belief or just Issaries Inc’s Hero Wars propaganda, since fixed by modern sages?

I bet you can come up with a dozen better ones yourself.

Edited May 14, 2023 by mfbrandi

[DrGoth]

Have you checked the lengthy facebook thread on Elmal that's appeared in the past few days?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RuneQuest/posts/2537476249761692/

 

[mfbrandi]

Or …

“El mal sol” = “the bad sun”, right? (Spanish speakers: please correct if necessary.) So of course Elmal is broken and cannot provide all the magic one might expect.

[Eff]

8 hours ago, zoomzoombug said:

Hi, 

To my understanding, Dawn Age Orlanthi thought Elmal was the Sun, but now in the Third Age, everyone agrees Yelm is the Sun, and Elmal is a narrow view of Yelmalio the Lightfore.

In the Dawn Age, did worshipping Elmal grant fire powers? If not, wouldn’t it have seemed weird that the fiery Sun Disk didn’t grant fire magic? 
Did the worship “go” to Elmal, who is Lightfore, or to the Sun Disk, associated with Yelm?

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

 

 

It would have seemed weird, I think, to believe the Sun was cold and dead. However, I don't think there's any coherent answer here because the Elmal material was produced initially under a very different cosmological understanding of Glorantha, one where it was plausible for a god to be both a hypostasis of a bigger entity (the Sun Horse that pulls the bigger disk) and a separate celestial entity in its own right (yellow planet). It is not so plausible now, so the Elmal material cannot ever be truly coherent in its own terms. 

[mfbrandi]

44 minutes ago, Eff said:

a very different cosmological understanding of Glorantha, one where it was plausible for a god to be both a hypostasis of a bigger entity (the Sun Horse that pulls the bigger disk) and a separate celestial entity in its own right (yellow planet). It is not so plausible now

So Gbaji cannot be both dark Arkat who dissects Nysalor and the shiny chap getting chopped up? I weep the chilly — but sparkly — tears of the cold sun.

(Still, Julian will be glad to hear he is not Sandy, after all.)

[Squaredeal Sten]

9 hours ago, zoomzoombug said:

Hi, 

To my understanding, Dawn Age Orlanthi thought Elmal was the Sun, but now in the Third Age, everyone agrees Yelm is the Sun, and Elmal is a narrow view of Yelmalio the Lightfore.

In the Dawn Age, did worshipping Elmal grant fire powers? If not, wouldn’t it have seemed weird that the fiery Sun Disk didn’t grant fire magic? 
Did the worship “go” to Elmal, who is Lightfore, or to the Sun Disk, associated with Yelm?

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

 

 

It Is pretty clear now that Elmal is not the sun, but was associated with it.  At some point in the godtime as Orlanthi myth has it,  Elmal  became subordinate to Orlanth.  Pelorian myth is different, but is also different regarding Orlanth.  All myths are true and they don't have to agree.

Incidentally when Gloranthan myth was under looser control Elmal was more significant in the King of Dragon Pass computer game.  This, however, was around 400 Gloranthan years ago and the priests' stories have evolved.  Elmal's magic never was very strong, he was always a subordinate god.  That's what my priest says anyway.  There are hard core Elmali on the board but they are heretics.

 Yelm was and is the sun. Killed in the godtime and his return  marks the start of the Dawn Age.  The important thing for us is that Orlanth ended his imperial pretensions.  

Elmal's status has varied and was previously a god  and religion on its  way to extinction.  Monrogh the prophet merged him into what is now Yelmalio, who is subtly different from Yelmalio before Monrogh.  The added worshippers make him a mid rank god.  

All clear now? 😅

 

[Ormi Phengaria]

My guess/interpretation is that the Elmali of the Dawn did have limited fire magic, but none of it from the god himself. Rather, it would have come from associate cults like the Lowfires and others since lost, with the early Elmal cult not knowing any prohibition on fire magic per se. I don't believe they would have gotten any extra magic from worshipping the Sun alongside the Yellow Planet, because they were identified as the same entity. That identification shaped the divine relationships they saw, but it also cut them off from a deeper understanding of . And certainly they were not getting Sunspear from Yelm.

How things evolved from there has an obvious dimension and a more obscure one. The obvious history is that the Elmali accepted Yelm as the Sun and Elmal as Lightfore, and that there were Lightfore mysteries they didn't know. The obscure history is in the later revelation of Daysenerus by Nysalor at the Battle of Night and Day. This deity is known to be Yelmalio, but his appearance implies that he was also something new, and he is implied in the Fortunate Succession to be an Amalgam Deity. I interpret him as a version of Yelmalio with Illuminated rune masters and a vast array of often contradictory cult associations.

[Darius West]

On 5/14/2023 at 1:55 PM, zoomzoombug said:

Hi, 

To my understanding, Dawn Age Orlanthi thought Elmal was the Sun, but now in the Third Age, everyone agrees Yelm is the Sun, and Elmal is a narrow view of Yelmalio the Lightfore.

In the Dawn Age, did worshipping Elmal grant fire powers? If not, wouldn’t it have seemed weird that the fiery Sun Disk didn’t grant fire magic? 
Did the worship “go” to Elmal, who is Lightfore, or to the Sun Disk, associated with Yelm?

Thanks in advance for the clarification.

I draw your attention to page 169 of The Book of Heortling Mythology, the Yelmalio entry:

"Yelmalio: God of the Winter Sun, Preserver of the Light. When Yelm traveled to the Underworld, Yelmalio preserved the dim, cold light until he returned. He also fought against Orlanth at the Hill of Gold, and even stole fire from Elmal one time. He is now worshipped by some Orlanthi who have abandoned Elmal."

Clearly Elmal is a different but similar deity to Yelmalio, and he does have fire magic.

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Daysenerus … a version of Yelmalio with Illuminated rune masters and a vast array of often contradictory cult associations.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

God of the Winter Sun, Preserver of the Light. When Yelm traveled to the Underworld, Yelmalio … even stole fire from Elmal one time … Clearly Elmal is a different but similar deity to Yelmalio, and he does have fire magic.

Now that we have left canon behind (by dipping into TBoHM), we can ski even further off piste. Or perhaps not so far.

• Why are there so many little cold suns scattered about the place?
  Instead ask why dead, dismembered Nysalor–Gbaji is “present in all of the world”?
  (e.g. Lords of Terror, p. 8)
• What lights the sky when the sun is in the underworld?
  There is an obvious answer: the moon.
• If Yelmalio stole Elmal’s fire, how do we know Elmal got it back?
  If Arkat–Nysalor is one, so maybe is Zorak Zoran–Yelmalio (and maybe the same one):
  He kills himself, he steals fire from himself.

Lunar deities embrace ‘contradiction’ and certainly can be light and dark both and play tricks with time.

Edited May 15, 2023 by mfbrandi

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Why are there so many little cold suns scattered about the place?
Instead ask why dead, dismembered Nysalor–Gbaji is “present in all of the world”?
(e.g. Lords of Terror, p.

I have put a lot of thought into the whole "Masks of Yelmalio" issue, and I have a good answer.  Yelmalio is a Soldier deity.  He fights in a phalanx, and is not a god of individual warriors.  He is a god of many names and faces because soldiers are a collective when they fight, unlike warriors, who are always individuals.  Each different name is a valid deity in their own right, just as each hoplite in a formation is their own person, and the Cold Sun Planet represents them all equally, in a mystery not dissimilar to the Christian Trinity.  That is why so many societies seem to have their own Cold Sun deity; each is a separate soldier.

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yelmalio is a Soldier deity.  He fights in a phalanx, and is not a god of individual warriors.  He is a god of many names and faces because soldiers are a collective when they fight

Quote

And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. — Mark 5:9

[Darius West]

That "My name is Legion" quote is much better than my Holy Trinity example. thanks mfbrandi.  👍

That being said, I'm not sure Yelmalio is a demon.  I didn't say you're wrong, just that I'm not sure.🤭

[EricW]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

That "My name is Legion" quote is much better than my Holy Trinity example. thanks mfbrandi.  👍

That being said, I'm not sure Yelmalio is a demon.  I didn't say you're wrong, just that I'm not sure.🤭

Product of a first age chaos god? 😉

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

That being said, I'm not sure Yelmalio is a demon.  I didn't say you're wrong, just that I'm not sure.

The more interpretations of Yelmalio, the merrier: Brighton antiques dealer, free jazz piano player, …

In that spirit, this suggestion, which can be taken as lightly as you like:

In the “my name is Legion” image, you don’t have to see YO as the possessor; he could be the unfortunate possessed, with each of his soldier worshippers — and maybe each non-worshipper soldier, too — one of the host of possessing demons chattering constantly in his head (“ — it’s a gift that soon turns sour”). His power/curse is to feel for the poor bloody infantry — he is a veteran of the psychic wars. YO is so hard to knock down and keep down because for as long as even a single soldier stands, he gets up again. So what happens when the last soldier dies? Is YO finally defeated, the light of truth blown out, or is it his Obi-Wan/Nysalor moment, granting liberation and peace to this most tormented of gods? (Don’t worry, the truth-functional “or” is inclusive.)

But if this deserves air time, at all, it should be as only one interpretation among many. Let us keep the gods strange, hard to second-guess, and quite unlike their worshippers. An Ernaldan is not the earth. An Orlanth fanboy is not the storm. And so — arse about face — Yelmalio shouldn’t be simply a pikeman and/or conservative farmer just because his worshippers are. My tip for all the cultists out there: don’t worship god in your own image, leave the all-too-human gods to atheistic sarcasts like me.

——————————————————

ASIDE: Forget Laconia for a minute — if a soldier has bought the farm, does that not make them a zombie farmer? Maybe it is not just YO his bad self that won’t stay down as long as one soldier stands. Next time you meet a Yelmalian farmer take a close look and give a surreptitious sniff. Another indication that where you find YO, ZZ is not far behind. It is only a matter of time before we all bow down to the Yin-Yang godhead of YOZZ. See? Demons. Everywhere you look: demons!

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

My tip for all the cultists out there: don’t worship god in your own image, leave the all-too-human gods to sarcastic atheists like me.

I think there is a strong tendency for humans to want to be gods.  Carl Jung for example was appalled by the fact that so many women wanted to become and be treated as avatars of the Mother Goddess.  It's all pure narcissism, of course.  It is also fair to suggest that anyone who doesn't understand that they are not an archetype is not spiritually advanced enough to achieve much spiritual growth/self knowledge either.  

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

It is also fair to suggest that anyone who doesn't understand that they are not an archetype …

Indeed. We are all closer to cardboard cut-outs than Platonic forms.

[DrGoth]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Indeed. We are all closer to cardboard cut-outs than Platonic forms.

Cardboard cutouts are 2-dimensional.  How many of us are closer to one?

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, DrGoth said:

How many of us are closer to one [dimension]?

Only me — although I may be a dimensionless point styling it out. The rest of you have at least two dimensions.

[Darius West]

On 5/18/2023 at 8:38 PM, mfbrandi said:

Indeed. We are all closer to cardboard cut-outs than Platonic forms.

I doubt archetypes are platonic forms.

[zoomzoombug]

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/13551-deep-background-history-of-the-sun-dome-temple/

I found this for reference and I think it sums up/ explains the discussion nicely.