Yelmalion 2h spear and shield

[Geas]

In RQG do yelmalions still get 2h spear and shield use?

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Geas said:

In RQG do yelmalions still get 2h spear and shield use?

Short answer: Yes. 

TLDR answer: Yes. 

[Geas]

Is it a passive shield or can you parry?

[Scotty]

6 hours ago, Geas said:

Is it a passive shield or can you parry?

You cannot parry with your weapon (constrained by the shield) or shield (hung from the shoulder and fastened to the left arm). The shield protects against blows to the left arm, chest and abdomen.

Note that it's not a separate skill and an exception to the cannot use a shield with a two-handed weapon rule.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

You cannot parry with your weapon (constrained by the shield) or shield (hung from the shoulder and fastened to the left arm). The shield protects against blows to the left arm, chest and abdomen.

This is not Rules As Written.

"The Yelmalio cult teaches its initiates how
to use a shield in conjunction with the Pike skill.
This is a special exception to the rule that a shield
cannot be used with a two-handed weapon."

(Although it's what you get if you're in a phalanx (and plus right leg), by the standard phalanx rules.)

Should this be considered errata/rules change? It makes more sense that way, I think.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Scotty]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Should this be considered errata/rules change? It makes more sense that way, I think.

No. This is the Yelmalio Two-Handed-Spear-with-Shield Style not the phalanx rules, the style can be used in phalanx formations.

• Phalanx: one-handed weapon, shield on arm. Those behind with long weapons may use two-handed ones.
• Yelmalio Two-Handed-Spear-with-Shield Style: two-handed weapon, shield slung from shoulder and attached to arm

It will be in the Yelmalio cult write-up, it's basically the same as the Sun County, Cult Compendium or Cults of Prax versions.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Scotty
Missed out the RQ2 version

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Yelmalio Two-Handed-Spear-with-Shield Style: two-handed weapon, shield slung from shoulder and attached to arm

 

So Yelmalio's core cult secret, the one thing[1] that every member gets, is now just 'you are allowed to follow the combat rules, the same as anyone else?'.

This is a pretty radical change from the RQ2 version.  Just as Kuschile horse archery was intended to allow shooting from a moving horse, I think most people assumed that 2H shield + spear allowed active parrying with the shield in a way that would otherwise have been impossible.

Which wouldn't be bad in itself if it was an intentional change, but the above makes it seems as if it is more a result of confusion of:

a: the intent of the old rules

B: how simply copying and pasting the old rules text into a new system (which allows slung shields by default) changes the context.

 

[1] it is a cult-specific skill, a mechanic that doesn't exist in RQ:G. Gifts are probably the closest replacement; certainly Kuschile horse archery would make infinitely more rules sense as a Gift rather than a rules paragraph [2]

[2] Also taking a geas, rather than making a POW sacrifice, could perhaps be treated  as a general-purpose mechanism for acquiring RP that is shared by multiple cults.

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by radmonger

[Scotty]

45 minutes ago, radmonger said:

So Yelmalio's core cult secret, the one thing[1] that every member gets, is now just 'you are allowed to follow the combat rules, the same as anyone else?'.

It's not a core secret, it's training. It's part of the Yelmalio Heavy Infantry occupation (page 71), and in the cult section (page 308) The Yelmalio cult teaches its initiates how to use a shield in conjunction with the Pike skill. This is a special exception to the rule that a shield cannot be used with a two-handed weapon.

45 minutes ago, radmonger said:

This is a pretty radical change from the RQ2 version. 

It's the same rules.

45 minutes ago, radmonger said:

 I think most people assumed that 2H shield + spear allowed active parrying with the shield in a way that would otherwise have been impossible.

Reading Cults of Prax Classic page 114: Not only can the character not use the shield for parrying, but the spear is too constrained by the shield hanging on the maneuvering arm to be used for parries either. 

I think most people interpreted this (my self included) as no parrying.

45 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Which wouldn't be bad in itself if it was an intentional change, but the above makes it seems as if it is more a result of confusion of:

a: the intent of the old rules

Nothing has changed, except it's not a skill, it's part of training.

45 minutes ago, radmonger said:

B: how simply copying and pasting the old rules text into a new system (which allows slung shields by default) changes the context.

This is not the slung shield rule, and you still can't parry with a slung shield.

[radmonger]

18 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Reading Cults of Prax Classic page 114: Not only can the character not use the shield for parrying, but the spear is too constrained by the shield hanging on the maneuvering arm to be used for parries either. 

ok you are right; I never noticed appendix K before. ..

[Akhôrahil]

Slung shield on back only blocks half as much as a "wielded" shield - does this apply to Yelmalio "front-slung" shield as well? Presumably not?

Edited May 23, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Soccercalle]

Rules-wise this should be possible to learn for non-Yelmalio. Even if all the ”masters” are in the cult.

[Akhôrahil]

31 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

Rules-wise this should be possible to learn for non-Yelmalio. Even if all the ”masters” are in the cult.

Yes - it's hard to see what's so special about it (it was used in the Ancient world), it doesn't seem to be a magical ability (as again, it's demonstrably feasible to use in the real world without magic), and even if somehow no trainer ever reneges, it's hard to see how you couldn't teach yourself through practice. All we have is that it is indeed restricted to initiates.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes - it's hard to see what's so special about it (it was used in the Ancient world), it doesn't seem to be a magical ability (as again, it's demonstrably feasible to use in the real world without magic), and even if somehow no trainer even reneges, it's hard to see how you couldn't teach yourself through practice. All we have is that it is indeed restricted to initiates.

The technique was originally used by non-Yelmalions and Daxdarius springs to mind (he was explicitly cited as a source in some Gregly writings but thinking on that may have changed).  Others prefer fighting with shorter spears because the Yelmalion technique emphasizes a stoic rather than heroic frame of mine.  So it's really just a trade secret known by the Sun Dome Temples rather than a cult secret.  Sure you could copy them but there's more satisfying ways to win battles.  

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Sure you could copy them but there's more satisfying ways to win battles.  

And good luck making Orlanthi warriors even stand still for that long!

[radmonger]

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

All we have is that it is indeed restricted to initiates.

that depends on how you interpret the 'this' in:

Quote

The Yelmalio cult teaches its initiates how
to use a shield in conjunction with the Pike skill.
This is a special exception to the rule that a shield
cannot be used with a two-handed weapon.

 

if 'this' means 'pike', as opposed to say '2h sword', then that kind of makes sense. It is just the rule is located in the Yelmalio cult section, rather than the combat  rules.

 

[Scotty]

26 minutes ago, radmonger said:

that depends on how you interpret the 'this' in:

if 'this' means 'pike', as opposed to say '2h sword', then that kind of makes sense. It is just the rule is located in the Yelmalio cult section, rather than the combat  rules.

and of course under the Heavy Infantry Unit Weapons: 2H Weapon (pick type). Yelmalio cultists may use pike and shield.

Remember, all of the long write-ups state that Yelmalions don't use swords

[Scotty]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Slung shield on back only blocks half as much as a "wielded" shield - does this apply to Yelmalio "front-slung" shield as well? Presumably not?

The half hit points, only applies to back slung shields against missiles.

[soltakss]

On 5/22/2023 at 4:58 PM, radmonger said:

So Yelmalio's core cult secret, the one thing[1] that every member gets, is now just 'you are allowed to follow the combat rules, the same as anyone else?'.

This is a pretty radical change from the RQ2 version.  Just as Kuschile horse archery was intended to allow shooting from a moving horse, I think most people assumed that 2H shield + spear allowed active parrying with the shield in a way that would otherwise have been impossible.

In effect, the rules for Yelmalian phalanx combat seem to have been generalised.

That makes sense, as other groups have pike formation, not just Yelmalio. So, the cult special training is still cult special training, it is just not unique to Yelmalio.