What exactly does it mean when it is said that "a god lives in such and such place"?

[Hellhound Havoc]

For instance, Ernalda is said to "live in" Esrolia, and Orlanth is said to "live in" that storm in the middle of Kero Fin. But at the same time it's said that he lives in the big storm that circulates the world, and also in Orlanth's Ring, the stars that appear in the sky.

Is this one of the good ol' "well ya know, mythology is convoluted" things? Or do the gods of Glorantha legit live under the sky dome with the rest of us?

Like, is Waha running around Prax physically? Or like, Issaries and those other gods who aren't exactly tied to natural phenomena like the Storm Bull and Heler? Or do they "live" (as much as it can be called life) in the God Time, in the background of existence?

[Jason D]

They are not physically incarnate in those spaces in the same way living beings are (humans, Aldryami, trolls, etc.), but their essence is most focused in the places there are described as living in. 

They may all dwell in different parts of the Gods World, but they also are plugged into parts of the physical realm of Glorantha by their continued supply of magic points (worship) and their regular minor manifestations (Rune magic). 

It sounds very godsy-wodsy (to coin a term), but think of it this way... we know that Engizi, the Sky River Titan, dwells along the Creek-Stream River, but would you say that he is also in Prax or the Wasteland?

So there's a clear sense of "yes there, no there" to where the gods might be considered to "live", so if it is problematic to think "lives in", just think of it as "favors this area." 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Jason D

[JRE]

I consider those geographical areas indicate where it is easier to contact them and get a response, usually passing to the other side in their Godtime dwelling.

Orlanthi heroquesters have succeeded in reaching Orlanth's big longhouse both by reaching the storm of Kerofin and the big circling storm. And by visiting Orlanth's ring in the Sky Dome. A powerful deity can be reached from several places. A nymph like Kinope still resides in the Godtime but she can only be reached in her pool.

Going bodily to the other side lets you control what you take with you, and get physical rewards, but it is also much more dangerous. 

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Or do the gods of Glorantha legit live under the sky dome with the rest of us?

Yes. Do you feel the winds move through your hair or through the trees? That is Orlanth, he is with us but cannot act otherwise within the world. Do you see the Sun in the sky each day? That is Yelm traversing the world to warm us and bring us light. The Earth beneath your feet is Ernalda. Etc. They do legitimately live in the world, but the Great Compromise binds them into their specific forms/actions within Time.

18 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Like, is Waha running around Prax physically? Or like, Issaries and those other gods who aren't exactly tied to natural phenomena like the Storm Bull and Heler? Or do they "live" (as much as it can be called life) in the God Time, in the background of existence?

And (generally) no. You will not find them in physically embodied and mobile forms within Time as that might allow them to act outside the Great Compromise. 

[Note: there are some exceptions such as Holy Days where within the sanctified space of your temple, initiates can see and interact with the deity as the two spaces, Within Time and God Time, have converged and overlap. Sometimes larger events like the Tournament of Luck and Death in the Holy Country when the God-king ruled converge an entire region with the God Time, but generally very rare.]

 

[Ormi Phengaria]

See also:

Quote

The dualistic realms of Immortal Destiny against Mortal Free Will are the basic polarities of the cosmos. From these poles of position comes all known reality: the eternally living and dying cosmos. The frictions caused by the co-existence of these opposing principles form the very energies that support both worlds. These energies are commonly called magic.

Quote

Casting a Rune spell literally channels part of the power of a god into the world. The caster takes on the aspect of the deity and becomes somehow “greater.” The god is manifest in the world, if only for an instant. [...] In this way, gods routinely show up in Glorantha, and people either acquiesce, summon their own gods, or flee. Sometimes gods contest each other, and people carefully watch for a victor.

From The Red Book of Magic.

[Joerg]

In case of Orlanth the Mountain Wind we have a map indicating his magical influence adjusted to topography, the effect of the holy mountains. While the long range effects of Top of the World and Kero Fin indicate the far range, using the lesser radii on these two peaks indicates a stronger "lived-in" topography.

Are the gods walking the landscape? Not regularly, unless you come into areas of manifest Godtime, like the Eternal Battle, the Block (ok, the Devil doesn't do much walking beneath it), the Skyfall, or the Footprint, or into the time when holy days (empowered by the rites of mortals) bring these deities into the realm of mortals. This is easier in in-between places, whether by accessibility (like hidden lands or castles like Castle Blue) or by ritual (and heroquesting) approximation of the Holy Realm.

[Hellhound Havoc]

Thanks everyone for the responses, it's much clearer now.

11 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Quote

Casting a Rune spell literally channels part of the power of a god into the world. The caster takes on the aspect of the deity and becomes somehow “greater.” The god is manifest in the world, if only for an instant. [...] In this way, gods routinely show up in Glorantha, and people either acquiesce, summon their own gods, or flee. Sometimes gods contest each other, and people carefully watch for a victor.

 

Ah, I see. In terms of HeroQuest these would be the Feats, then. Thanks for these quotations.

[g33k]

IIRC, there are a few other exceptional cases :

Many demigods & even gods could occasionally be encountered just ... walking on the streets, in some places within Belintar's Holy Country.

Some say that Kyger Litor can betimes be found within the halls of the Castle of Lead.

Recall that the Windstop was supposedly triggered by the mortal armies overrunning Whitewall, discovering Orlanth's sleeping body, and murdering him there.

YGMV ... and undoubtedly will !!!
(mine certainly does!)

[Hellhound Havoc]

9 minutes ago, g33k said:

Recall that the Windstop was supposedly triggered by the mortal armies overrunning Whitewall, discovering Orlanth's sleeping body, and murdering him there.

Whoa for real? I had no idea, though I had heard about Kyger Litor. Where can I read about this? Is it in the History of the Heortlings?

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

Whoa for real? I had no idea, though I had heard about Kyger Litor. Where can I read about this? Is it in the History of the Heortlings?

Actually was Ernalda's sleeping body. 

Briefly noted Glorantha Sourcebook p.36. and King of Sartar p.122, but main text is the latter p.139: "But Whitewall fell, and the priests killed gods. The powerful priestess Enerian Scarlet, called “beloved of Sedenya,” found the heart of Orlanth that was hidden in the bedrock under the citadel. She crushed it in her hands, and there was a great roar of agony that was so loud it knocked everyone to the ground, and it deafened most hearers permanently. But it ended in a whimper, and the wind stopped. In the Ernalda temple a sleeping goddess was discovered, and the Alkothite named Garoshargash, a Hell priest, strangled it to death. The priests heard a distant wail and great mourning."

[Hellhound Havoc]

47 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Actually was Ernalda's sleeping body. 

Briefly noted Glorantha Sourcebook p.36. and King of Sartar p.122, but main text is the latter p.139: "But Whitewall fell, and the priests killed gods. The powerful priestess Enerian Scarlet, called “beloved of Sedenya,” found the heart of Orlanth that was hidden in the bedrock under the citadel. She crushed it in her hands, and there was a great roar of agony that was so loud it knocked everyone to the ground, and it deafened most hearers permanently. But it ended in a whimper, and the wind stopped. In the Ernalda temple a sleeping goddess was discovered, and the Alkothite named Garoshargash, a Hell priest, strangled it to death. The priests heard a distant wail and great mourning."

I can definitely see a metaphorical interpretation for Orlanth's death. Broyan was the Vingkot king, he was a chosen one, maybe they meant Orlanth's... essence or whatever and someone went there and used magic to ~~~ it or something.

...I can also see a metal interpretation, to which I'm partial, where there is an actual, eldritch-looking beating heart underneath Whitewall, and a guy went there and YOINKED it.

I'm not sure I can see a metaphorical interpretation for Ernalda's, though? Because it refers to her sleeping, and that doesn't seem like the sort of detail they'd put in if they meant just her essence.

What's going on there?

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

I can definitely see a metaphorical interpretation for Orlanth's death. Broyan was the Vingkot king, he was a chosen one, maybe they meant Orlanth's... essence or whatever and someone went there and used magic to ~~~ it or something.

...I can also see a metal interpretation, to which I'm partial, where there is an actual, eldritch-looking beating heart underneath Whitewall, and a guy went there and YOINKED it.

I'm not sure I can see a metaphorical interpretation for Ernalda's, though? Because it refers to her sleeping, and that doesn't seem like the sort of detail they'd put in if they meant just her essence.

What's going on there?

Ernalda slept through the period in which Orlanth was on the Lightbringer Quest, and sleeps through the period of the Windstop, so killing a sleeping Ernalda makes sense.

[Brian Duguid]

6 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

What's going on there?

One interpretation is that they found a High Priestess of Ernalda sleeping, and that sufficient magic was present such that killing the Priestess also "killed" Ernalda, locally and temporarily. When the Hero Plane impinges sufficiently on the mundane world, the binary difference between person and their god may be erased. The killing is the culmination of a Lunar heroquest which summons both their own power and that of their enemies into a single place.

Just one interpretation, of course. And it may not help with the heart in a rock bit :-).

[JRE]

A powerful heroquest will force your enemies to adapt to it, and if they do not react with enough force (such as leaving the citadel almost defenceless) it may force a minor Orlanth relic to actually become Orlanth's heart and an Ernalda priestess become the sleeping goddess. You still need a hero able to strangle Ernalda, however.

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, Hellhound Havoc said:

I can definitely see a metaphorical interpretation for Orlanth's death. Broyan was the Vingkot king, he was a chosen one, maybe they meant Orlanth's... essence or whatever and someone went there and used magic to ~~~ it or something.

...I can also see a metal interpretation, to which I'm partial, where there is an actual, eldritch-looking beating heart underneath Whitewall, and a guy went there and YOINKED it.

I'm not sure I can see a metaphorical interpretation for Ernalda's, though? Because it refers to her sleeping, and that doesn't seem like the sort of detail they'd put in if they meant just her essence.

What's going on there?

They've crossed over into the God Time when descending into her temple. The sleeping goddess will be Ernalda's High Priestess, but she is also Ernalda - the two come together in the Other World.

[Ormi Phengaria]

23 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Actually was Ernalda's sleeping body. 

Briefly noted Glorantha Sourcebook p.36. and King of Sartar p.122, but main text is the latter p.139: "But Whitewall fell, and the priests killed gods. The powerful priestess Enerian Scarlet, called “beloved of Sedenya,” found the heart of Orlanth that was hidden in the bedrock under the citadel. She crushed it in her hands, and there was a great roar of agony that was so loud it knocked everyone to the ground, and it deafened most hearers permanently. But it ended in a whimper, and the wind stopped. In the Ernalda temple a sleeping goddess was discovered, and the Alkothite named Garoshargash, a Hell priest, strangled it to death. The priests heard a distant wail and great mourning."

Damned unruly Alkothite, killing Ernalda too! And being so conveniently culpable!

[Joerg]

20 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

One interpretation is that they found a High Priestess of Ernalda sleeping, and that sufficient magic was present such that killing the Priestess also "killed" Ernalda, locally and temporarily. When the Hero Plane impinges sufficiently on the mundane world, the binary difference between person and their god may be erased. The killing is the culmination of a Lunar heroquest which summons both their own power and that of their enemies into a single place.

Just one interpretation, of course. And it may not help with the heart in a rock bit :-).

Canonically, all the assaulters found in the fortress of Whitewall were two dozen dead bodies. A sleeping priestess would have been noted IMO.

A statue of the goddess, imbued with her presence by the ambient magic might be possible - and might have required traitorous priestesses of the Earth Queen in order to provide a sufficient presence for the slaying to take effect.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

A sleeping priestess would have been noted IMO.

And since it is noted in King of Sartar, that satisfied my canonical bent. (And was used in my Whitewall scenarios whenever they move along the Chaosium queue.)

 

[Joerg]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:17 PM, jajagappa said:

And since it is noted in King of Sartar, that satisfied my canonical bent. (And was used in my Whitewall scenarios whenever they move along the Chaosium queue.)

 

My pdf says a sleeping goddess rather than a sleeping priestess. Of course a goddess can be a priestess of a greater goddess, but my Whitewall at the time of the assault only has human "defenders" who are dead, not sleeping. Pining for the fjords...

The escaped human defenders might be in a sleep-like frozen state on some peak in the Stormwalks as the result of their escape, for a while.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Joerg

[mfbrandi]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:34 PM, Joerg said:

My pdf says a sleeping goddess rather than a sleeping priestess.

In the second edition? Yes, mine, too. It is missing from the first edition — the conceit is that it is a recently discovered “lost” chapter (i.e. making KoS align better with scenarios published after 1992). But … aren’t “Ernalda is dead”, “Ernalda is sleeping”, and “it is winter” all pretty much equivalent? And isn’t the lost chapter some kind of Lunar propaganda?

Rather than giving us information about literal location of gods in the mundane world, isn’t the idea — more or less — that taking Whitewall is part of some fancy ritual by Tatius to “kill” Orlanth? The severing is the connection between god and worshipper, not god and god’s body, unless the worshippers are the god’s body in the mundane world, which is maybe not completely mad.

Quote

Whitewall is important to Tatius, because when he captures it he fulfils his criteria for killing Orlanth, an important part of the ritual for his Reaching Moon Temple.
— Eleven Lights, p. 101

All the stuff about squishing hearts and strangling goddesses is just gobbledegook for the marks, the “magically significant act” is taking Whitewall, no?

[I am, of course, just making this up as I go along, so …]