Do Spirit Societies actually consider THEMSELVES as such ?

[Agentorange]

a few days ago i posted some questions around spirit societies  and there was a ( surprisingly ) brief discussion around the societies, overlapping Rune Pools etc etc.

Which got me thinking do the various Spirits in the spirit  scoiety see themselves as a society or group ?. I know not all spirits have INT but I tend to think of the ones involved in spirit societies as having it especially if they're hero cults etc.

So do the spirits see themselves a  group of allies/fellow travellers/entities with something in common or common aims....

Or is that purely how Shaman perceive them ?

Edited September 10, 2023 by Agentorange

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

do the various Spirits in the spirit  scoiety see themselves as a society or group ?

My thoughts:

1) no, the Spirits have no awareness of a society or group

2) it is the shamans who conceive of and create the society

3) the shamans can do this because the Spirits are either a) sufficiently friendly to each other (common myths or purposes, etc.) or b) neutral and their required taboos do not result in impossible conditions for the shamans 

4) as a result, the shamans of the society are able to summon/call the spirits of the society at that same time if needed and utilize them as a collective. (But when done, the Spirits return to their places in the Spirit World - which might overlap or be adjacent/tangential - and go about their activities individually.)

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

Which got me thinking do the various Spirits in the spirit  scoiety see themselves as a society or group ?. I know not all spirits have INT but I tend to think of the ones involved in spirit societies as having it especially if they're hero cults etc.

So do the spirits see themselves a  group of allies/fellow travellers/entities with something in common or common aims....

Yes, some spirits societies have spirits that understand there is a hierarchy and / or see themselves as a group (sometimes if only by actual association). Eg. The three feathered rivals are exactly that a group of rivals - they know this and their limits. Or the Thirstless spirits understand (where possible) that Zola Fel is the head.

No, some spirits societies have spirits that don't understand there is a hierarchy and don't see themselves as a group and are unaware of the others. This is most likely a new spirit society with a recent mythology. E.g. The Red School of Masks, which is a synthesis between Lunar and Praxian tradition and includes spirit cults such as 

Most spirit societies are likely to have existed since before the Dawn and their spirits are associated by deed. 

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

Or is that purely how Shaman perceive them ?

Spirit societies are usually cultural and extend beyond the shaman (unless in the very rare case they made the society). Even if not part of a spirit society, members of the same pantheon will understand it's basic make up. E.g. Orlanth initiates would understand that an Orlanthi shaman deals with a group of spirits headed by Kolat or another local spirit, which contains a variety of spirits, some of who might not be winds. (The Orlanth spirit society is complex as it is effectively part of the Orlanth cult). If he deals with the winds and weather alone, he might lead the Seven Winds society or if it's broader, it could even be a new society called the Lightbringers, comprising spirits from associate spirit cults. In the last case I'd build a specific unique society around a shaman.

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, Agentorange said:

So do the spirits see themselves a  group of allies/fellow travellers/entities with something in common or common aims....

In civilized areas I would say yes. It is possible. Out in the boonies, no, its a shaman type thing.

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, David Scott said:

Most spirit societies are likely to have existed since before the Dawn and their spirits are associated by deed.

How does a shaman leaving for the spirit plane for good transfer a spirit society she is in charge of? How does a new "charismatic" shaman (are there any others?) take over?

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

How does a shaman leaving for the spirit plane for good, transfer a spirit society she is in charge of? How does a new "charismatic" shaman (are there any others?) take over?

• The shaman dies and hands it on to another. (usually the next most senior) or their apprentice 
• The shaman dies and the shaman of a splinter (a smaller version of the same society) takes over.
• The shaman dies and competing shaman vie for control (this benefits no one)
• If it's a splinter, the local group may have no shaman

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

How does a shaman leaving for the spirit plane for good transfer a spirit society she is in charge of? How does a new "charismatic" shaman (are there any others?) take over?

I doubt that spirit societues or individual spirit cults would have a written constitution.  So there is no single rule.

What I envision is that first a shaman develops a spirit cult, then over time his apprentices and friends join it.  When the originsl shaman dies he may designate a successor, or alternatively one or more of the other shamans in the cult enter the soirit plane and bargain with that spirit.  You might abstract that bargaining as a roll against CHAx5, or another test such as POW+ CHA.  

As for soirit societies I am not even sure they will have a singke head shaman.  I see them as groups of spirit cults with signiglficant overlaps in worshipper membership andI compatable spirits.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten