Throw Skill p. 83

[LivingTriskele]

I'm finding the wording in the book a little unclear.

The book says that if the object you're trying to throw is within 10 SIZ points of your STR a successful roll on the Resistance Table is needed to pick it and throw it properly. I'm taking this to mean if the object's SIZ is equal your STR + 1 to 10 you need to roll on the Resistance Table (but not if its SIZ is equal or lower to you STR). Is that correct?

For example: If a character with a STR 100 picked up an object with SIZ of 105he/she would need to roll on the Resistance Table, but not if the object had a SIZ 100?

If so, does this mean that you can't throw objects with a SIZ score 11 or higher than your STR?

[rust]

If so, does this mean that you can't throw objects with a SIZ score 11 or higher than your STR?

I very much think so. For example, with an average human Strength of 10.5 and

the average SIZ of a horse of 26 this seems very plausible, as throwing horses is

a comparatively rare pastime. However, this system uses SIZ for volume as well

as mass, and therefore tends to break down whenever volume and mass of an

object are not closely related, for example when a large object is very light or a

small object is very heavy. This is why I would prefer to make a mental "reality

check" before I apply the rule and replace the rule with common sense whenever

its result seems weird.

[LivingTriskele]

That's what I thought. I've been working on clarifying/understanding some of the rules regarding encumbrance/lifting/throwing. So far as I can tell STR 10 can pick up SIZ 10 and throw it without a roll on the Resistance table (however, SIZ 10 can be a weight between 1.66 to 60 kilos or up to 132 pounds).

[rust]

Yes, just imagine a life size "Trojan" horse made of paper mache and hollow, a

person with an average strength could easily throw it. On the other hand, a ve-

ry much smaller statue of a horse made of solid gold could be much too heavy

to throw, even for a much stronger person.

[LivingTriskele]

One point of ENC equals a range between 1/6th of a kilo and one full kilo

One point of ENC equals a range between one full SIZ point and 1/6th a SIZ point

When one point of ENC equals 1 kilo, then when one point of ENC equals 1/6th a SIZ point, one full point of SIZ equals 6 kilos

Therefore one point of SIZ = 1 to 6 ENC points or 1/6th a kilo to 6 kilos

Therefore one kilo = 1 ENC or 1/6th a SIZ point to 1 full SIZ point

...yeah, I know I'm obsessive ...

Edited May 30, 2011 by LivingTriskele

[soltakss]

If the object is more than 10 below your STR then you can throw it without a roll on the Resistance Table. If it is within 10 of your STR then you must roll on the Resistance Table.

STR 15 vs SIZ 2 means no roll on the Resistance Table as it is considered relatively small.

STR 15 vs SIZ 6 means a roll on the Resistance Table (95% chance)

STR 15 vs SIZ 24 means a roll on the Resistance Table (5% chance)

But STR 10 vs SIZ 10 definitely means a roll on the Resistance Table (50% chance).

As written, you don't need to roll on the Resistance Table if the SIZ is 10 or more than STR, but makes no sense at all, except because the chance of success is 0. So, you can't throw something that has SIZ of 10 or more higher than STR.

I'm not sure if I like that, because it seems odd that there is a 0% chance. I prefer the RQ3 table, which gave a 1% chance up to a certain point.

[LivingTriskele]

Thanks, that clarifies that quite a bit. I understand the idea behind this rule, but have similar (opposite) misgivings about it. If I have STR 15 and want to throw an object SIZ 2, I think it might be unrealistic that I have a chance of failing at that...

Maybe instead of having a chance of failing it would make more sense to have the SIZ of the item effect the possible distance it can be thrown.

[LivingTriskele]

I just remembered that this is a roll done to determine if a PC can lift a certain amount of weight and carry it (not throw it). If the roll if failed, does that mean the PC can't lift the item at all, or that they are fatigued by lifting it?

[Simlasa]

If I have STR 15 and want to throw an object SIZ 2, I think it might be unrealistic that I have a chance of failing at that...

Why would you? The SIZ is outside the limit of 10.

There are plenty of things I am capable of picking up but cannot throw with any accuracy... either because of weight or general awkwardness.

[LivingTriskele]

Good point. I misread...

[Atgxtg]

I think there probably should be a default lifting ability. At one time Iused tohave to lift boxes of tile for a living, and going strictly by the Resistance Table, I'd have been hard pressed to get through the day without "failing" to lift the tiles a few ties.

Technically, there is a 5% chance that a average man (STR 10) can't pick up a pencil.

[pansophy]

I think common sense should rule over game mechanics when ever possible. Because of your hitpoints a character still would not survive a fall from a skyscraper. Depending on the setting, that is.

[LivingTriskele]

I'm working on a chart to tighten up the lifting/SIZ rules. The project was originally intended for a superhero game I'd like to run. I'll share the results when it's finished. I appreciate constructive criticism.

[pansophy]

Technically, there is a 5% chance that a average man (STR 10) can't pick up a pencil.

You are referencing to a size 2 object and a DTR of 11. Size 2 might mean a 2m long object weighting up to 1,2 kg. So the object might be very hard to handle or does not offer good surfaces to have a good grip.

Ever handled a dryer alone? It's bulky, no handles and has slippery sides - while not heavy. I would give a dryer a size 2 or 3, and yes, there might be a 5% chance you cannot handle it.

[LivingTriskele]

From what I can tell a point of SIZ represents a pretty wide range of size and mass (one point of SIZ = 1 to 6 ENC points or a range between 1/6th a kilo to 6 kilos).

[pansophy]

From what I can tell a point of SIZ represents a pretty wide range of size and mass (one point of SIZ = 1 to 6 ENC points or a range between 1/6th a kilo to 6 kilos).

Right, I messed it up. I was thinking 2 SIZ = 2 ENC, but referring to the SIZ table it could be 5 to 20kg and up to 60cm in dimension. And considering this, a size 2 object might really hamper your attempts to move that object around.

SIZ & ENC have always been a muddy water in BRP. SIZ in it self is not consistent as well, the tables at pages 26, 296 & 277 all differ, the equipment chapter also says 1SIZ=1m (approx.).

So there's no real truth in numbers here, only references and guesswork. Size also addresses the ability to handle an object, this is why some weapons have a high SIZ even if they are very light (or at least lighter).

The thing is: does SIZ have to be absolute? Does it have to be a certain number? I don't think so, the references in the book are good enough to assign a value on the fly.

A way to go might be to separate SIZ into it's ingredients: bulk, dimension, weight. And then put it into a formular to come up with a SIZ value.

[LivingTriskele]

I think for most purposes the system is fine as it is (though I would appreciate consistency with its charts I think SIZ is a useful numeric value, but addressing the difference between actual dimensional proportion and weight could be nice at times (something I hope to do with this chart I’m working on…).

[pansophy]

here's a quick formular for objects. It seems to be on the right way ...

SIZ(object) = [bulk*10 + Weight(in kg) + Height(in cm)/20] /10

Bulk is a value between 0 and 10, usually 0 to 4.

For Humans:

SIZ= [CON*3 + Weight + Height/20] /10

These formular are not fully tested, but seem to work in a way as to show a relation between the three values used. Maybe they are useful ...

[Atgxtg]

If it helps, I did write up a corrected and exnpaned SIZ table awhile back.

From about 5-88 the SIZ table uses a x2mass - +8 SIZ progression. If it were up to me, I7d have stuck with the doubling progression thoughout. It actually would have made a few things easier.

I agree with the "common sense" idea for lthings, except...

People usually don't know enough to work it out. For instance, how many people know what an "average" man can lift? Even going with "common sense" I suspect that each of us would come up with a different answer. I am leaning towards something along the lines of half your mass without a STR roll.

[LivingTriskele]

I just uploaded a chart called Vitruvian's Clarifications & Extrapolations_SIZ Kilos ENC Length. It's just a first step.

[Smoking Frog]

I just uploaded a chart called Vitruvian's Clarifications & Extrapolations_SIZ Kilos ENC Length. It's just a first step.

I love the Vitruvian Man background.

I was just wondering what failing the Resistance Roll means in terms of what the character has done with the object to be thrown. The rule says a character has to succeed on the resistance roll to see if the object can be grasped and lifted up to throw properly. Obviously, if I make the resistance roll, I'm just going to use my throw skill as normal. If I fail the resistance roll, what does that mean? Is this something where the GM just has to rule what happened. It seems like this could be a problem if the thing I want to throw is dangerous (like a bomb or something on fire). If I flub the resistance roll, I wonder if I might drop it on the floor next to me or something else nasty.

[LivingTriskele]

Thanks.

I was actually wondering the same thing. I have to reread the rules, but I recall considering either applying a negative modifier to the Throw roll or maybe some Fatigue loss.

[LivingTriskele]

I had a chance to look briefly at book today. It looks like (in regards to lifting) the Resistance Table is used to determine if you can successfully lift something and still function relatively normally (I didn't see any mention of throwing...).

I get the impression the Resistance Table and the Effort Roll are used to determine things like if a character can lift, say a heavy chest or a portcullis.

I haven't seen any rules regarding weight limit and throwing yet. I should think that weight would inhibit the distance you could throw an object.

[LivingTriskele]

I was just wondering what failing the Resistance Roll means in terms of what the character has done with the object to be thrown. The rule says a character has to succeed on the resistance roll to see if the object can be grasped and lifted up to throw properly.

Oh, I see what you're talking about...

I wonder what the official ruling on this would be. I think I would apply a negative modifier based on the chance of failure (rolled on the Resistance Table).

For example, if I have a STR of 15 and want to pick up and throw a SIZ 7 object, I have a 90% on the Resistance Table to pick it up properly. If I fail that, apply the chance of failure (10%) to my throw roll. If the object was SIZ 6 (95% of success on the Resistance Table) failure would incur a -5% to my Throw roll.

I don’t know if that makes sense yet.... I’m sleep-deprived (teething baby kept us awake all night).

By the way I just uploaded another chart pertaining to this thread (Vitruvian's Clarifications & Extrapolations_Casual Lifting)