Malkioni Ascended Masters and Saints

[bronze]

Have wondered what are they, where they reside, how they interact with the world, what are prerequisites to be acknowledged as a Saint, in what manners and aspects they do differ from Abrahamic equivalents, etc. It looks like they are neither minor gods nor spirits. Are they alike to powerful ancestors? 

Edited October 17, 2023 by bronze

[Richard S.]

Ascended masters are Malkioni heroes who ascended to the otherworld and are now worshiped through hero cults. Gerlant, Talor, Hrestol, and Xemela are the only ascended masters we know of definitively, but there's probably more. They can also be worshiped as ancestors, with Gerlant as a notable example. There's no set requirements or prerequisites that we know of, but they probably just need to have been acknowledged as a capital-H Hero in life. Whether they're now gods or spirits is up to interpretation, the important part is that they were mortals who achieved something great enough in life that their power persists and can be contacted after death.

The word saint is basically unused now, since there's been a lot of effort to distance the Malkioni from the old allegories to real-world monotheist religions and their ideas of sainthood.

[bronze]

22 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Ascended masters are Malkioni heroes who ascended to the otherworld and are now worshiped through hero cults. Gerlant, Talor, Hrestol, and Xemela are the only ascended masters we know of definitively, but there's probably more. They can also be worshiped as ancestors, with Gerlant as a notable example. There's no set requirements or prerequisites that we know of, but they probably just need to have been acknowledged as a capital-H Hero in life. Whether they're now gods or spirits is up to interpretation, the important part is that they were mortals who achieved something great enough in life that their power persists and can be contacted after death.

The word saint is basically unused now, since there's been a lot of effort to distance the Malkioni from the old allegories to real-world monotheist religions and their ideas of sainthood.

Deeply appreciating your illumination! 

Edited October 17, 2023 by bronze

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

The word saint is basically unused now, since there's been a lot of effort to distance the Malkioni from the old allegories to real-world monotheist religions and their ideas of sainthood.

Less common name for Ascended Masters, as per the Guide. Probably most often seen for Saint Xemela?

There is also a Saint City on the Red Moon, and the Hideous Saints of the World of Losers movement.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

Ascended Masters are Malkioni who have revealed a philosophical truth about the Invisible God to mortals.  They are distinct from Heroes, Gods and Ancestors.  Many of the Saints in the old sources would be classified differently now.

Gerlant and Talor are described as Ascended Masters yet it is quite difficult to imagine what deep insight they had about the Invisible God.  Gerlant is described in the Prosopedia as a Hero and worshipped for his flaming sword.  Talor likewise is a hero who probably teaches the Humor runespell.  One gets the feeling they have been described as Ascended Masters to glorify the countries they established.

Hrestol and Arkat on the other hand have significantly revealed truths about the Invisible God.  Both are also heroes who can be worshipped for the magics they have acquired.  

Rokar is an an example of an Ascended Master who is not a Hero or Ancestor.  Perhaps the reason the Rokari are down on the worship of Ascended Masters for magic is that it tends to show up Rokar's lesser statue compared to the others already mentioned.

 

[bronze]

On 10/18/2023 at 10:43 AM, metcalph said:

Ascended Masters are Malkioni who have revealed a philosophical truth about the Invisible God to mortals.  They are distinct from Heroes, Gods and Ancestors.  Many of the Saints in the old sources would be classified differently now.

Gerlant and Talor are described as Ascended Masters yet it is quite difficult to imagine what deep insight they had about the Invisible God.  Gerlant is described in the Prosopedia as a Hero and worshipped for his flaming sword.  Talor likewise is a hero who probably teaches the Humor runespell.  One gets the feeling they have been described as Ascended Masters to glorify the countries they established.

Hrestol and Arkat on the other hand have significantly revealed truths about the Invisible God.  Both are also heroes who can be worshipped for the magics they have acquired.  

Rokar is an an example of an Ascended Master who is not a Hero or Ancestor.  Perhaps the reason the Rokari are down on the worship of Ascended Masters for magic is that it tends to show up Rokar's lesser statue compared to the others already mentioned.

How many Ascended Masters are out there? It comes off the Westerners have fewer heroes than other people, Ascended Mastes or otherwise. 

[Erol of Backford]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:43 PM, metcalph said:

Many of the Saints in the old sources would be classified differently now.

But a lot of the old game play with many memories are based on the old zines if you don't have Tales of the Reaching Moon 13 Bronze, I'd check it out as it has a bunch of Malkioni Saints (ascended masters) or whatever you wish to call them. The whole Go West ides was scrapped but its a very fun part of Glorantha for me.

Tales of the Reaching Moon and Tradetalk have some great stuff overall. Evn a few issues I thought were duds years ago have come into their own with content after taking a second look. Great material though not canon...

[Richard S.]

I think some of the lists of fan saints are still up on various personal websites, though you'll probably have to do some digging in the wayback machine. I don't think it'd be too hard to remove the old western flavor (unless you're into that), and then just give them 1-3 Rune spells similar to whatever their blessing was. I'll see if I can find some.

[John Biles]

The western saints seem underdeveloped because only fanwork ever really detailed the west very much.

With the exception of Mongoose Runequest. which got decanonized.

 

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, bronze said:

How many Ascended Masters are out there? It comes off the Westerners have fewer heroes than other people, Ascended Mastes or otherwise. 

I'm not really seeing the westerners having fewer heroes than other people.  The Prosopedia lists quite a few Malkioni heroes:  Arkat, Gerlant, Herjan, Hrestol and Talor.  As for Ascended Masters, the Guide p51 gives Xemela, Tomaris, Halwal, Tryensaval, Snodal and Siglat.  It also notes:

Quote

Ascended Masters are venerated by worshipers, who
seek inspiration and guidance from them. Ascended Masters
do not provide any direct magical benefits for those who pray
to them, but can aid them in achieving Joy, serve as guides for
the faithful, and as exemplars of virtuous behavior.

I suppose if you follow an Ascended Master's lifestyle (for Xemela, this might be harm no living thing), you either get a bonus to henosis (in RQ:G terms this means learning runic knowledge or creating a new sorcery spell) or to Rightness.  The identity of the Master is for most purposes irrelevant.  What is important is the path they have established.  For example, among the Rokari there is an order known as the White Wizards.  They may predate Rokarism being associated at one point with Zzabur himself.  Who established the order is unknown so far and unimportant.  All that matters is observing the well-known requirements for being a White Wizard.  These requirements could be pythagorean (eat no meat and no touching the beans).  

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, John Biles said:

The western saints seem underdeveloped because only fanwork ever really detailed the west very much.

There was an intended HeroQuest work which put a lot of detail into the Saints.  The only problem was they seemed to be more Christian than Malkioni.

 

[Richard S.]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:43 PM, metcalph said:

Ascended Masters are Malkioni who have revealed a philosophical truth about the Invisible God to mortals.

"A very few men and women attain spiritual perfection in life and achieve complete unity with the Invisible God." From the Guide. That's a bit different from having to reveal a philosophical truth, and also makes Talor and Gerlant being masters make more sense.

I think the box about ascended masters in the guide might have been partially deprecated, since it mentions how they provide no direct magical benefit when worshiped, yet we have rune spells for three of them, and Jeff has mentioned that Xemela's cult overlaps with Chalana Arroy's in Seshnela. That last bit also casts some doubt on whether the Rokari really do "view prayer to the Ascended Masters as barbaric superstition".

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

"A very few men and women attain spiritual perfection in life and achieve complete unity with the Invisible God." From the Guide. That's a bit different from having to reveal a philosophical truth, and also makes Talor and Gerlant being masters make more sense.

To reveal a philosophical truth about the Invisible God would require mental unity with It  This is a bit different from accosting strangers in the agora and asking strange questions.

7 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I think the box about ascended masters in the guide might have been partially deprecated, since it mentions how they provide no direct magical benefit when worshiped, yet we have rune spells for three of them, and Jeff has mentioned that Xemela's cult overlaps with Chalana Arroy's in Seshnela. That last bit also casts some doubt on whether the Rokari really do "view prayer to the Ascended Masters as barbaric superstition".

I've already stated my position above on the multiple categories of hero, ancestor and ascended master.  I don't see that multiple ascended masters having rune spells because of them being heroes or ancestors refutes the guide's statement.  That the Rokari view prayer to the Ascended Masters as barbaric superstition *and* also worships them could just mean that the Rokari are trapped between practice and principle as their barely disguised Hsunchen warrior societies demonstrate.   

 

Edit: It just occurred to me that an order like the White Wizards might be popular among the Rokari for the reason that the founder is unknown and can't be prayed to, thus avoiding the superstition.

Edited October 20, 2023 by metcalph

[Richard S.]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

To reveal a philosophical truth about the Invisible God would require mental unity with It  This is a bit different from accosting strangers in the agora and asking strange questions.

Fair enough. Where'd you get the philosophical truth thing from though?

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I've already stated my position above on the multiple categories of hero, ancestor and ascended master.  I don't see that multiple ascended masters having rune spells because of them being heroes or ancestors refutes the guide's statement.  That the Rokari view prayer to the Ascended Masters as barbaric superstition *and* also worships them could just mean that the Rokari are trapped between practice and principle as their barely disguised Hsunchen warrior societies demonstrate.   

Also fair. I suppose we'll just have to wait a few years for the IG book for a definite answer...

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Fair enough. Where'd you get the philosophical truth thing from though?

Ancient conversation from Jeff (back in the old days when we still though knights and saints were appropriate).