Among Sartarites, what exactly is a "noble" and how is it different from the "warrior", in terms of occupations?

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The temple and the Ring have no interest in pushing the carl families down to cottar status, and clan politics will work against doing that.   The high taxes of the Lunar occupation might push things that way, but post-Dragonrise, no.

This is a balancing act - more cottars mean more taxes and richer nobles and temples, but lower clan coherence and weaker military.

Nobles in general might be expected to push for it, but the chief has to have the support of the carls.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

gifts of self-composed poetry

Finally, the explanation of the awfulness of Orlanthi poetry: mean, lazy guests. You start by offering ten lyric odes; your host decides that is too poor a gift, so you offer nine, instead; by the time you have been haggled down to no poems, everyone is happy. If too much drink has been taken, politeness breaks down, and some kind of performance occurs — the horror! If you bid up, weapons seem to leap to hands.

It is notable that the greatest gift is silence — the great dormant and impersonal force containing everything within it, the wonder of the universe. (Tricksters claim that Orlanthi poetry is less than nothing, formless beyond emptiness, but no Orlanthi listens to them. A Kralori visitor may raise an eyebrow or scowl.)

[Techpriest]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is a balancing act - more cottars mean more taxes and richer nobles and temples, but lower clan coherence and weaker military.

Nobles in general might be expected to push for it, but the chief has to have the support of the carls.

Cottars do fulfill important military roles though. Cottars form the core of skirmishers and light infantry for a clan - they throw javelins, act as archers, scouts, slingers, and screening forces. Most probably own a spear or an ax for battle, and a shield, though not much armor. Good performance by these men in battle can improve their social standing, leading to awards of cows, a hide of land they can manage for the temple, or other rewards that can seriously boost their wealth. It's best to think of cottars often working as tenants of various carls - while they mostly herd sheep, they'll also herd cows for carls, grow their own meager crops to support themselves, and assist in the harvest. Eventually if the gap gets bad enough, some cottars will either break off with some wealthy carl to form a new clan, or just leave for another clan in need of farmers and farm hands. 

Calling cottars 'semi-free' is a bit wrong, that's a designation best assigned to thralls. Cottars are still considered free men, they just don't own nearly as much as carls do. At least that's what I sort of picked up on from King of Sartar on Orlanthi society. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Techpriest

[Akhôrahil]

22 minutes ago, Techpriest said:

Calling cottars 'semi-free' is a bit wrong, that's a designation best assigned to thralls. 

Thralls are fully unfree. They're slaves.

I agree about cottars, though, and that seems to be the current canonical line as well - semi-free is more for stickpickers and the like.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Techpriest]

13 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Thralls are fully unfree. They're slaves.

I agree about cottars, though, and that seems to be the current canonical line as well - semi-free is more for stickpickers and the like.

Thralls are different than slaves though, thralls have certain rights that must be respected that slaves don't, IIRC. 

[Akhôrahil]

15 minutes ago, Techpriest said:

Thralls are different than slaves though, thralls have certain rights that must be respected that slaves don't, IIRC. 

Thralls are literally slaves. It's just that slaves have varying degrees of rights in different systems of slavery, and the Orlanthi one isn't super harsh as these things go (for instance, the children become free).

Edited October 30, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Techpriest]

39 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Thralls are literally slaves. It's just that slaves have varying degrees of rights in different systems of slavery, and the Orlanthi one isn't super harsh as these things go (for instance, the children become free).

Thanks for the clarification. 

[Akhôrahil]

Serfs are a different matter, like the modern Vendref (it seems reasonable to describe the FHQ reforms as bringing them from thralls to serfs).

[Cassius]

On 10/30/2023 at 12:28 AM, Hellhound Havoc said:

Wouldn't this make a Carl lineage into a Cottar lineage in like 3 generations?

Say I'm a Carl, I hold 2 hides of land, I have 3 beautiful sons. I distribute these 2 between the oldest ones, and the third one works on one of his brothers farms.

To Joerg's excellent remarks, I'd add that the area of land cultivated within a clan is not fixed. If the clan's population grows, there is always the possibility of clearing new land. This is certainly the case in Sartar, where most of the land is neither cultivated nor occupied. Of course, the best farmlands are already occupied, but there are potentially others that could support a family.

And that can be a good start to a scenario or campaign. Clearing land has awakened something... a spirit from ancient times, a dryad, a creature of Chaos buried during the Greater Darkness. It's time to revisit The Shining !

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 10/30/2023 at 3:48 PM, Akhôrahil said:

for instance, the children become free

well... they become free to move and to do what they want of their lives, not "free" as the status.

 

I understand the three levels of free / semi free / and unfree as

 

unfree / owner : you have some rights (probably few...) but you cannot leave your owner. You must obey and act as desired by your owner (in the limit defined by your rights) Anything you produce is for your owner. Your owner has the responsability to feed and shelter you

 

semi free / boss : you can do what you want of your life, you can leave your clan(adventure or definitly), change job etc... However you don't own the source of your revenues (land, shop, mine...). So if you work for someone you must follow their decision: if you are herder your cannot decide to kill/sell the herd and plant vine for example. You even can't decide to change the process of production (you could however propose any progress to your boss). A part of you produce (outcome) if for your boss, a part is for you. You have the responsability to feed and shelter your family

 

free / temple-ring: you can do what you want of your life, you can leave your clan (adventure or definitly), change job etc... However you don't totally own the land (the Earth temple is the true owner) but you can do what you want in the limit of the decisions of your clan/temple in your land/shop/mine/etc...

 

 

now from a war perspective (still it is my understanding)

On 10/30/2023 at 2:58 PM, Techpriest said:

Cottars do fulfill important military roles though. Cottars form the core of skirmishers and light infantry for a clan - they throw javelins, act as archers, scouts, slingers, and screening forces

I agree about importance of skirmishers etc..

However i don't define any "rule" like ("free / carl" must have armor) or (semi free / cottar must be skirmisher)

 

Semi free fighters are probably skirmishers, not by rule but because they don't have enough money to buy close combat gear (good armor etc...) There is no reason to forbid a semi free fighter to wear "dad's plate armor" if daddy were able to own a plate armor.

 

free fighters are probably good standing warriors with good armor (nobles have better in most cases) not by rule but because they have enough money to buy close combat gear and probably have time to train themselves better than semi free. There is no reason to forbid a free figher to wear no armor or to use a bow... If Jojo the berserker is able to cut a head every minute but cannot wear any armor or Koko the flying scoot is able to hit a wasp 500 meters away, you will not require them to wear heavy armor just because they are free or even noble.

 

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

well... they become free to move and to do what they want of their lives, not "free" as the status

Well maybe, maybe not. They likely become cottars, and I think cottars qualify as free? Of course, they also might become stickpickers, who don’t.

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

They likely become cottars,

probably

but I think cottars are semi free. Or I don't understand the difference which is... possible 😛

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but I think cottars are semi free. Or I don't understand the difference which is... possible 😛

I'm badly confused as well - I thought I understood this with KoS and the RQG rulebook (Carl = Free = Non-Tenant), but I feel less sure now.

Same thing with Noble - if I understand Jeff's posts correctly, most Nobles (profession) are not Nobles (social class). 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Richard S.]

I think the noble profession in RQG implies that the character was both born to noble parents and has earned (or inherited, depending on homeland) the social status of a noble.

It's entirely possible for someone to be born to nobles (learning the appropriate skills in childhood) but not have actually earned the status, or vice versa. If those cases apply to the PC, just change their status of living to whatever they actually have.

[Akhôrahil]

48 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I think the noble profession in RQG implies that the character was both born to noble parents and has earned (or inherited, depending on homeland) the social status of a noble.

While I agree about this, in Jeff's writings on this (assuming I read them correctly) most people with the Noble profession in RQG would rather be some kind of "Wealthy Free", while the Noble social class proper is considerably more restrictive. The Noble profession is kinda middle management in many cases - you're the boss over a few dozen people in a village, but hardly the very social elite.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Squaredeal Sten]

What do you think of this?  It is my understanding that " noble" means either that the person:

1) Has a job / place in the community that involves them not doing manual labor (which would be governing, priesthood, or a salaried military position) and also having a high income awarded by the community (typically the five hides of land which RQiG makes a standard, but a temple may just support a Rune Lord or a high priest), or 

2) Being a family member and resident of a noble' s household.  

Our references for this are the character generation mechanics and the year end income mechanics in RQiG.  So it is game mechanics as well as Gloranthan background.  And as Jeff has recently written that it is primarily a game mechanic.

It seems to me to be  useful to distinguish noble status from noble standard of living.  A successful merchant or leading crafter may achieve a noble standard of living but not be a noble.  At the same time his social status may be equivalent to a noble.  

There are going to be high nobles and low nobles.  The clan chieftain is lower than the Prince of Sartar, for instance.

There are going to be edge cases and ambiguities. 

* What are you if you are a thane with four hides of land instead of five? 

* What are you if you are the Issaries market priest at clan level?  IMHO the answer might be different from being THE Issaries market priest in Nochet.

* What are you if you are a Chalana Arroy priest / priestess walking a circuit of many villages, who enjoys a noble SOL partly because you are every chieftain's guest, but also because Rune magic cures and resurrections oblige the patient to give as generously as he can afford?

It also seems to me that when the clan chief's son or daughter goes adventuring or caravan guarding, they give up that noble status and Standard Of Living until they return home.  Though they may be treated with noble social status by those who know them, or clan chiefs  who know their father.  I would even change their character sheet and their SOL in the year end calculations, while they are away from home.

 

 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It also seems to me that when the clan chief's son or daughter goes adventuring or caravan guarding, they give up that noble status and Standard Of Living until they return home.  Though they may be treated with noble social status by those who know them, or clan chiefs  who know their father.  I would even change their character sheet and their SOL in the year end calculations, while they are away from home.

Something like Jamie Fraser in outlander ?

i would agree

i think (just now) there is another option in Orlanthi lands (aka « we are all equals and we choose our leaders. What ? Our leader is the child of our previous leader ? Oh didn’t see it before you told me »)

If I simplify a lot : nobility gives order to others (I mean others when you don’t pay them to do something )

then there are two levels of nobility

- ring member and priest (« job position ») : people. They lead their community (and we may find sub levels: clan chief, tribe chief, archipriest… in these organization )

- people who impress other (« social position ») I put there (ring member/priest)’families and any people rich enough to have the standard of living of noble (they have clients). These two categories have a great access to the ring and temple. So they are « respected »  ( do you think that would you have the same service than Brad Pitt everywhere ? Why if you pay the same price ? ) or « feared »(I will not annoy them in case of)

 

[Shiningbrow]

I'm somewhat confused by the confusion.

If someone is born into a 'noble' family, then they can have the 'occupation' of a noble, as well as the status/standard of living - even if they're not truly 'ruling'. It's been like this for a few thousand years here on earth - you get the extended family members that technically qualify as a noble, even though they do sod all (slight pun intended!) yet have some (theoretical) measure of importance in the community - i.e., the 'lower classes' will offer some deference to them (even if the 'real' nobles of the clan consider them a complete waste of space and drain on finances. As per RQG, they get +30% to Manage Household (which is their main job!) - the waste of space nobles leave it (and Orate) at that... they can do the job, but haven't dedicated themselves to it (hence, waste of space).  They've been professionally trained in a couple of weapons (they should probably have Battle as a +% as well!) and they get to (nominally) voice their opinions on things that affect the community as a whole (more than most others... Manage the Household (stead) and make suggestions about how to improve it). Occasionally muster the fyrd and lead them off to fight something (presumably from the front!)

They solve disputes between the commoners (Orate & Customs), and regardless of how badly they're looked upon by the clan and family, the commoners are still supposed to do what they say (until it gets superseded by the smarter nobles). They get to represent the clan at some meetings, and get invited as a guest.

These people might well qualify for Upper-class Twit of the Year. (oh, that's what I should have said - noble = hereditary 'upper-class')

I'd also suggest that the 'noble' SoL in the book is somewhat towards the mid to bottom end of the noble SoL & ransom possibilities (and probably the same for Priests). Kallyr & Leika aren't down at the mere 1000L for a ransom! (Although, Ashborn is... I'd put it higher!) and their wealth is considerably higher than what's in the RQG (but, also remember that this is for players, and doesn't represent the rest of the lozenge - or even Dragon Pass and environs).

Also, a Noble is merely a managerial position! Just as one of the bold skills says!

Who actually gets to rule (as I think people are wondering about)? Those who have the higher Category Modifiers and put their +25/10% skills into those that are required for Nobling... Customs (Own), Manage Household and Orate (and maybe a bit of weapons skills)... followed by the XP checks!

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Something like Jamie Fraser in outlander ?

i would agree

i think (just now) there is another option in Orlanthi lands (aka « we are all equals and we choose our leaders. What ? Our leader is the child of our previous leader ? Oh didn’t see it before you told me »)

If I simplify a lot : nobility gives order to others (I mean others when you don’t pay them to do something )

then there are two levels of nobility

- ring member and priest (« job position ») : people. They lead their community (and we may find sub levels: clan chief, tribe chief, archipriest… in these organization )

- people who impress other (« social position ») I put there (ring member/priest)’families and any people rich enough to have the standard of living of noble (they have clients). These two categories have a great access to the ring and temple. So they are « respected »  ( do you think that would you have the same service than Brad Pitt everywhere ? Why if you pay the same price ? ) or « feared »(I will not annoy them in case of)

 

Oh, we were writing up the same ideas - and I let mine not save for about an hour or so 😜

[Akhôrahil]

11 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

* What are you if you are the Issaries market priest at clan level?  IMHO the answer might be different from being THE Issaries market priest in Nochet.

I would say Merchant - your function as a trader is likely more important than that of a religious officiant. Ransom by your personal wealth?

11 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

.* What are you if you are a Chalana Arroy priest / priestess walking a circuit of many villages, who enjoys a noble SOL partly because you are every chieftain's guest, but also because Rune magic cures and resurrections oblige the patient to give as generously as he can afford?

Healer by the argument above, but at elevated ransom?

11 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It also seems to me that when the clan chief's son or daughter goes adventuring or caravan guarding, they give up that noble status and Standard Of Living until they return home. 

This probably depends. If you’re doing the default ”seasonal adventuring operating out of your home context”, then you should still count as noble. If you go to Pavis to hunt for treasure for a few years, it depends on whether you maintain your standard of living out of your own funds - you’re not getting supported from home until you return. Although as the chief’s offspring, your Ransom should still be high.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It also seems to me that when the clan chief's son or daughter goes adventuring or caravan guarding, they give up that noble status and Standard Of Living until they return home.  Though they may be treated with noble social status by those who know them, or clan chiefs  who know their father.  I would even change their character sheet and their SOL in the year end calculations, while they are away from home.

I think....

it should depend on what you think is required of such a person in order to get the money. According to the relevant chapter (Between Adventures), the Noble would have to roll their Manage Household (or Orate) to determine their income. If the GM rules that the household can be managed well enough without them (say, through a steward), then there shouldn't be any reductions (assuming the steward does the job well enough). Obviously, such a steward needs to be paid, and would come out of the final tally.  There's an example of Vasana doing this with her cousin Harmast is on p424, although it doesn't indicate how much he gets for it (his skill is only 50% anyway...) Perhaps, 1L per Manage Household percent, multiplied by the income roll(s)?? This should give a minimum of about 60L, to up to about 85L base per year - which isn't too bad for just telling people what to do. (also note, I'd allow Augment rolls here - either Farm or Herd, and the success/failure of those could also be added/subtracted from their wages... I'd suggest the same for all other income rolls!)

Orate, however, should probably mean a reduction, unless the player can justify its use (e.g. negotiating clan affairs or building support outside of clan lands).

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

What are you if you are a Chalana Arroy priest / priestess walking a circuit of many villages, who enjoys a noble SOL partly because you are every chieftain's guest, but also because Rune magic cures and resurrections oblige the patient to give as generously as he can afford?

 

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Healer by the argument above, but at elevated ransom?

Kerisdana Hollybright, the healer in the Adventurer's Book, has a ransom of 1250. No income is listed. But, given this ransom is higher than the typical noble's or priest's, I would assume that she (and other CA's) would enjoy a higher SoL - possibly at higher than standard Noble/Priest level as well.

I think an important question that hasn't been asked is - what's the SoL and ransom for a 'high' Initiate or God-Talker?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Kerisdana Hollybright, the healer in the Adventurer's Book, has a ransom of 1250. No income is listed. But, given this ransom is higher than the typical noble's or priest's, I would assume that she (and other CA's) would enjoy a higher SoL - possibly at higher than standard Noble/Priest level as well.

Possibly, but it could also be that they just really want her back if captured.

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think an important question that hasn't been asked is - what's the SoL and ransom for a 'high' Initiate or God-Talker?

In my game, I run a "wealthy free" SoL of 120 L for people who can afford it but don't have a noble position. 

And while the game doesn't explicitly say it, I think there would be a substantial overlap between Noble and God-Talker - your village thane is also the officiator for local religious stuff (you might not go to the clan center for just the weekly worship if it's half a day away). This would also nicely map against how the clan chief is the clan temple high priest.  

Edited November 2, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think an important question that hasn't been asked is - what's the SoL and ransom for a 'high' Initiate or God-Talker?

ransom is what others accept to pay if you are not able to pay yourself. So the point for me is more how many kin / firends / followers  you have. I would say that during the play it is not a rule (aka : [well you are a warrior, 500 is your ransom]) but more [well... your secret lover is the husband of the Earth temple priestess... he may convinced her wife to pay a bigger ransom than 500, maybe 1200]. Or maybe [your affair is not so secret... and the priestess will order anyone to not help you at all and your ransom will be less than the "rule standard", maybe .. 80]

now for the Sol.. it is about the same, I don't consider that you lose your status if you are not able to pay your Sol. For example if the priest of Orlanth is unable to pay the noble Sol (because war, raid, illness) should it be considered as a cottar ? No, he is priest, he is seen as a leader by his clan. However his clan, and himself, are "just" very poor

so if you have a position of leader (priest, clan ring) you will still be seen as noble. But if you are not in these official positions, and have not enough money to be seen as "a prince" (low sol), well you're just "like me".

 

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Possibly, but it could also be that they just really want her back if captured.

Well, yes - but I don't think it's all that personal.

I'd imagine most CA priests will be really wanted back! Moreso than many other people - hence the higher ransom amount.

(I wonder if the ransom idea is merely the highest value that can be bargained up to by those paying it... )