Sartar Militia Numbers

[Ynneadwraith]

True, though one of the points I was making is that formation fighting really isn't as complex as it looks, and can function effectively without much dedicated training at all.

For instance, to form up in ranks you're just told to place your arm on the shoulder of the person in front of you while marching, then when you come to a stop (orchestrated by an officer), you turn around. That puts you the right distance apart to fight (there's some variation in spacing between situations and between cultures, which is achieved through similar techniques, like wider spacing by both people reaching out and stopping when your fingers touch). This isn't something you need to practice to get battlefield capable, especially if you live in a culture where stuff like this is everyday knowledge.

Orders is another interesting one in that there really aren't many. Mostly it's 'follow the guy you've been told to follow, and do what they do' in a big chain up to a unit commander. Once the battle commences there really is very little that command can do to influence what's happening beyond riding their own personal guard up and attacking someone. Where you do get complicated battlefield manoeuvres (like Macedonian phalanxes spreading themselves out into half-depth/double-width formations, or Romans cycling their ranks), you do have some drill involved to get it slick. However, it's mainly achieved by having a massive pyramid-stack of officers (like 2/3rds of the entire formation being some form of officer). This lets them stack up huge chains of 'just follow the guy you're supposed to follow' until it's only a dozen or so people per unit that actually need to think about what they're doing.

The vast majority of formation stuff is so bog simple you can get school children to do it with 5 minutes of instruction and a bit of guidance (provided by an officer). Most of the rest is stuff that would be writ large in your oral culture (don't chase fleeing enemies too far etc.). Anything not covered by that is in the realms of 'very complicated battlefield manoeuvre' and is generally tackled by having loads of officers.

That's not to say that training wouldn't help, but it doesn't help because what they're doing is complicated and they need to learn how. It helps because it's a teambuilding exercise (which is one of many ways you can build cohesion, and not even the most effective for communal cultures like the Orlanthi).

[Ynneadwraith]

Addendum: I'm not saying that Orlanthi shouldn't have a tradition of training. Lots of cultures did. It's just a continued defence of 'untrained' militia 👍

[Shiningbrow]

I'd just like to add that there's two elements that should be taken into consideration here - Chaos (and maybe trolls), and magic.

Chaos is incredibly frightening to mere mortal humans. Even a single broo can be terrifying to the average yokel.. So, solid militia training to not bolt in terror would be necessary. And with opponents dressed up as broo (and other horrors). Preferably a couple of times a season.

Secondly, magic would be very significant - as Healing magic (even basic spells) means that drilling can be more realistic - there's not the need to hold back the way we would, and they can use fully sharpened weapons, knowing that anyone they hurt can be healed up again pretty quickly. How that affects the rate of training of the lesser militia - not sure! But it's definitely changing how we should view it.

 

ETA - as an addendum, I think that healing magic should also affect the numbers of militia - as there's less worry about being maimed (or killed) in combat, so there should be a slightly higher rate of recruitment of green troops.

Edited February 5 by Shiningbrow

[Grievous]

On 1/31/2024 at 2:24 AM, Jeff said:

The Sartarites do the same. Traditionally, new adults in Orlanthi cultures go through a period of cult training or apprenticeship, often called the “Ordeal Years”. The newly initiated young men (which include those women chosen by Vinga) are brought to Orlanth Adventurous and given weapons, a cloak, and a broad hat. This is sometimes done by the clan, more often by the tribe; in some cities, the young men live in the temple or guild house; in other traditional clans, they live in the wilderness. For the next two years, they learn to fight alone and as part of the militia. They raid and hunt, learn to run long distances, how to climb cliffs, and other physical training. Most importantly, they learn the songs and dances of the Orlanthi gods and heroes, how to speak with spirits, and of sex, the bonds of friendship, and the duties of men.

Now during the Lunar Occupation of places like Boldhome, New Pavis, or the other Sartarite cities, this had to be more circumspect. Young men were often sent to relatives in the countryside to learn how to be Orlanthi - for example, many went to Garhound in Pavis County, where they were under the protection of the clan chieftain. In Boldhome, many had kin among the tribes.

That is very cool. I wonder how that worked for tribes that were more properly complying with the Lunars and/or had more Lunarized kings during the Occupation. The Ordeal group could become rebels (that would no doubt continue luring young men into their midst), but if that didn't happen, how might that look? The tribe would have to create an alternative training group though, but with Orlanth out of the question, what form would they take?  

[Akhôrahil]

On 2/2/2024 at 3:31 PM, Ynneadwraith said:

True, though one of the points I was making is that formation fighting really isn't as complex as it looks, and can function effectively without much dedicated training at all.

For instance, to form up in ranks you're just told to place your arm on the shoulder of the person in front of you while marching, then when you come to a stop (orchestrated by an officer), you turn around. That puts you the right distance apart to fight (there's some variation in spacing between situations and between cultures, which is achieved through similar techniques, like wider spacing by both people reaching out and stopping when your fingers touch). This isn't something you need to practice to get battlefield capable, especially if you live in a culture where stuff like this is everyday knowledge.

I'm not sure how much I believe in this - sure, maybe in this particular situation you can get the line in place that easily (although you have to get everyone to march properly first, and having done military service it's not hard but also non-trivial to march even as a platoon). But what if you have to rush out of your tents to form up? Form up again after a clash? Stay in formation rather than rush out as Orlanthi in particular may be wont to do?

Quoting Clausewitz: "Everything in war is very simple. But the simplest thing is difficult."

[radmonger]

4 hours ago, Grievous said:

That is very cool. I wonder how that worked for tribes that were more properly complying with the Lunars and/or had more Lunarized kings during the Occupation.

I 'd guess in the same way as one or another of the various lunarized Orlanthi provinces.

Some people would join Humakt, YT, Yelmalio or some other approved military cult and became full-time professional warriors, joining regiments serving as mercenaries or auxiliaries for the Lunar army. Initiation would happen at the time of joining the regiment, like a bronze age Full Metal Jacket.

The logic of collective defense, the law of large numbers, means a lot fewer people are needed for this.

Cities would become even more the center of religious life. So initiation would be organised by cults, not clans. It would follow an apprenticeship that taught the skills needed to succeed at it. The idea of sending 13 years olds into the Other Side unprepared would be regarded as a barbarity. Way too many of them emerged as dead-eyed Humakti, others as half-mad Eurmali, and (whispered) some as broo.

Any backwoods regions without cities would be left as they were, being without importance.

[Techpriest]

On 1/30/2024 at 1:49 PM, Ynneadwraith said:

Skirmishers are an interesting one in that they can often buck the trend for not lumping together inexperienced fighters. Depending on the cultural attitude towards skirmishing (i.e. whether it's seen as a decisive arm of an army), you might get differing results.

The pre-professional Romans did value skirmishers, but they weren't seen as decisive. They did put their more unbloodied newer recruits into the Velites, which is less of an issue than in the main line because if they break they can fall back to the safety of the more experienced fighters behind them (indeed this is an expected part of their battlefield role). This exposes them to warfare from the relative safety of skirmishing, all the while being overlooked by all of their social superiors in the main line which maintains the social pressure in cohesion.

One of the things the Colymar should really do well is mounted skirmishers. They have two full clans of Yelmalio/Elmal cultists around Runegate, and that likely means mounted archers and skirmishers. Anyone who's dealt with horse nomads historically can tell you how absolutely annoying and dangerous mounted skirmishers can be. 

[David Scott]

On 2/5/2024 at 10:02 PM, Techpriest said:

One of the things the Colymar should really do well is mounted skirmishers. They have two full clans of Yelmalio/Elmal cultists around Runegate, and that likely means mounted archers and skirmishers. Anyone who's dealt with horse nomads historically can tell you how absolutely annoying and dangerous mounted skirmishers can be. 

That's what they have - their counter in WB/RM is mounted: