Shaman-Priests in RuneQuest

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, how is gallivanting throughout Prax going to be (I would add, 'legitimately') for, say, a newly ordained Priestess of the Nochet Ernalda Temple??? (

The canonical example here is Samastina, who left Nochet to consult with Cragspider, and later got tangled up with Broyan and eventually became Queen.

I'd agree some explicit guidance would be nice. there is a lot of room to expand on the rules in the 'Between Adventures', and in particular make it clear how that relates to cult obligations. But it seems straightforward that Ernalda is the goddess of Esrolian nobility. Samastina would have profession noble. Going on ritual quests of matter of national importance is the job of nobility. So all her adventures counted as cult business.

If she had instead ran away to be a sailor, she would have been in dereliction of her duty, and might have suffered from spirits of retribution until such time as she either reconciled or left the cult.

If she had instead not been a noble, but a priest, then things would have been much more difficult for her, and she would have been abandoning cult obligations by running off without the consent of her family Grandmother. So a GM running a campaign in which that was true, but who wanted her adventures to happen, would have to have her grandmother decide it was official Family business.

There is a profession for full-time murder-hobos, the bandit. Orlanth Adventerous is perhaps unusual in playable cults in that it would consider that acceptable behavior, providing the PC spared non-combatants. took captives, had no dealings with slavers and demanded only the customary ransom. This is abstracted as the tithe cult members must pay, even if they have that profession.

 

 

Edited March 9 by radmonger

[French Desperate WindChild]

Before saying my new answer, there is something I would like to clarify :

 

I like the priest and the rune lord as is in the rules. That's not the issue for me at all. It makes sense.

the duties (including the 90%), the description, are exactly what I imagine for a priest. And it is a very nice "occupation", if you play a community based campaign, of course.

I have more issue with the shaman rules because it combines two things the fetch and the community. I would prefer to have a rule for [undefined name] who has a fetch and [undefined name] who has a fetch and leads or at least look after a community.

 

The point is more how GM and players play (and what published scenarios offer).

What I say is there is an inconsistency between the rules and how it seems a lot of people play these guys .

I m not a "judge", I don't say these GM and players play badly. I don't say it at all. I say there is a need of "something" which is not the priest as decribed, something so closed to the priest or shaman that they.. we ! .. use,  "forgetting" a part of the rules -and background- . And that's for me the inconsistency. Because in fact, what people do is some eurmal trick there.

 

2 hours ago, Malin said:

I got that wish a while ago: "Hey, we wanna go to the Plateau of Statues and do some treasure hunting!" This is a bit outside their normal militia duties, so I needed to come up with some good reasons, and a couple of sessions later, we were heading there. It's not like they were saying at the start of a session, "We're going to the Wastes today, so I will start packing."

yes and that's totally fine. However, if a majority of the scenarios you play are "outside" the scope of the duties of your pcs;  GM is using eurmal magic. Fun yes, Useful (irl) yes. But not consistent with the duties of every pcs. Is it serious, important,... ? never mind, it fits with MGF, and MGF is RAW isn't it ?

 

In the same way that irl, how many believers will accept that their parish priest, synagogue rabbi, mosque imam or any other cult priest will not be here to lead the cult every time it is required, will not be here to teach, advice, support daily their followers  ?

• Sorry I was not here last week for your baby's birth, I have a good reason: my friend, the head of the police of London (rune level) was called in Los Angeles to question some suspects and one of them believes in our god, my help is required.
• Ah that's true, three weeks ago I was in Beijing because you know, my friend the great archelogist (rune level) Jones needed my knowledge to decode an ancient tablet. I m verry sorry to have not been here to bless your Dad's tomb.
• You want to plan your wedding next week ? Congratulations ! Oh unfortunatly I will not manage it, ask my god talker to arrange it. Yes I need to go with my friends to  ....

Maybe this guy should leave his position to someone else, more involved in the community day to day life; shouldn't he ?

 

Of course some times they are called to something else, somewhere else, far from their communities... 10% of the time... or even less. So why gloranthan should be different (when the rules say the same) ?

 

In the other hand, why should it be so important to see their characters becoming priest for players ? of course if the players and gm want to play priests and their congregation, it is so logical. But if not..

 

why ? for the (now) ridiculous additional power this occupation gives ? Since RQG, we don't need to be priest to use runespells. -the issue is about shaman, i agree -

To get an allied spirit ? well an extraordinary intiate can get an allied spirit. That's a god decision. And the GM plays the god.  You don't need to be a priest. you don't need to "trick" the priesthood

So why ? to have a kind of progression ? Something between initiate and hero ? In that case, there is a need of something, for sure (in addition of hero rules hahah). My previous post tried to answer this need (with the holy status and champion status) and to keep consistent with what the rules says - and what I imagine is a priest -

 

3 hours ago, Malin said:

It feels like some people read the rules as a document forbidding them to do things

so for me no, the point is not that I m afraid to break the rules, rules that I consider consistent and fine for the priests. The point is that's there is something missing to stay consistent with both priesthood and some GM/players wishes if we don't want houserule.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

You are the embodiment of your deity or spirits in Glorantha. So what it’s saying is that OK there is some time needed on the ritualistic and community care components of the role, and these link to community, but basically acting as your god did 90% of the time is to me ‘in service’

for me being the embodiment of your deity is what is called Initiate

the 10% or 90% is not based on the time you embodies your god (will you say that a humakti or orlanthi initiate must be honorable only 10% of the time ? )

Imo, this 10% / 90% is based on the time you must/are expected to be in the temple or around, not only for rituals , but for any community/temple needs depending on your occupation.

[svensson]

In regards to 'gallivanting'😆

Yes, there needs to be a discussion between the players and ref as to how they want the campaign to go, its focus and directions.

The players need to be clear about the kind of adventure they're looking for. The referee needs to be clear about the theme, sandbox, etc.

There's nothing wrong with wanting some sidebar jaunts to the odd places on the map, so long as it can be structured into the narrative.

But the key to all this is communication with all parties.

[Geoff R Evil]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for me being the embodiment of your deity is what is called Initiate

the 10% or 90% is not based on the time you embodies your god (will you say that a humakti or orlanthi initiate must be honorable only 10% of the time ? )

Imo, this 10% / 90% is based on the time you must/are expected to be in the temple or around, not only for rituals , but for any community/temple needs depending on your occupation.

An initiate is just that, as the word implies, somebody who seeks to embody their god, but has yet to demonstrate the skills, knowledge or magical connections that show they ARE the embodiment of their god. Very Big Difference.

I am sure that those that wrote the rules never meant rune levels to be immediately retired as unplayable. same applies to shaman.

With 254 days a year, that leaves 25 days to yourself as a shaman or rune level using your rules above.  What it does do, as I said earlier is massively restrict what adventures you go on to those that relate to your god or responsibilities to community god or spirits. For example, in my game right now, the clans shaman has been away for 4 weeks already as an NPC but what he is doing relates to protecting the clan, and also sets up a need for my PCs to go help him.

Edited March 9 by Geoff R Evil

[Malin]

- puts on wargaming glasses to read the rules and what they actually say -

Looking through the cult books, it looks like things vary quite a bit between the various Shaman paths. Some are very tied to tribe or cult, others looks like there might be choices.

Take Waha for example. There it says:

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The Waha cult has shamans that serve as Rune Priests. They are less of a magical priesthood than they are a social hierarchy maintaining order in the tribes. Strict cult functions are more directed to tribal rule than magical or spiritual salvation.

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A qualified candidate who can awaken their fetch and become a full shaman (RuneQuest, pages 354–355) automatically becomes a Rune Priest of Waha, should they desire it.

"Should they desire it" makes it sound to me that someone initiated to a shaman on Waha's path might choose not to become a rune priest. And if they didn't, it doesn't sound like they would have the same responsibilities as one?

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Restrictions
A shaman must take on four shamanic taboos. They are not allowed to marry any foreign women. They are not allowed to eat any meat on Claydays. They may not hunt birds, gather eggs, or sew. Once in their life, shamans must make pilgrimage to the Devil’s Marsh and kill something of chaos.

As seen, there is no fixed 90% time restriction there, I don't see why it would be impossible according to the rules for a Waha shaman to wander as long as they don't accept the rune priest position and becomes part of the clan hierarchy.

And then we have Daka Fal:

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The Shaman-Priests of Daka Fal form the core of the cult. The size of the active cult will depend entirely upon their personal success or failure and their CHA.

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An initiate of Daka Fal who knows Spirit Speech at 90% can seek to become a Shaman-Priest of Daka Fal. The candidate must go off alone during Sacred Time and cast Axis Mundi. A random ancestor (see Ancestral Spirits, page 85) then engages the candidate in spirit combat to test the would-be Shaman-Priest’s worthiness. The ancestor’s Spirit Combat skill is equal to its POW×5. If the candidate can defeat the ancestor and reduce its magic points to 0, the spirit teaches the candidate the secrets of Daka Fal and awakens their fetch. The candidate becomes a full shaman (RuneQuest, pages 351–363) and must choose shamanic abilities and taboos.

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Restrictions
Shaman-Priests are required to give 1 magic point per week to each of their bound spirits. The magic points may come from themselves or from their worshipers. Only then will each of the spirits remain loyal and present.

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Benefits
Shaman-Priests benefit by getting considerable magical power under their command without becoming an outcast like normal shamans. It is often the only channel of power for warriors with little status or property outside of the established noble and priestly families.

And here, we have an entirely different way of initiating and a complete focus on ancestor spirits. Here, it seems like the shaman themselves are the focus of their little cult, and it is up to them how powerful they can get. The spirits are their community they feed and are responsible for.

In contrast, there is Pamalt:

Quote

Restrictions
Shamans of Pamalt may not become Chieftains and are normally barred from becoming priests. Shamans must give 90% of their time and income to the cult. Physical health and wellbeing are essential to the core of shamanic practice. Debilitating practices should be avoided, such as ingesting too powerful poisons or tonics, remaining in a state of intoxication, or offering sacrifice to gods other than Pamalt.

Who is very much the heart of the community with the 90% demand. No way out of it, you even automatically become one if you are a shaman already and joins the Pamalt cult. You do not operate outside society then.

----

I think those were the shaman paths that are described in the cult books, where we know more details about stuff.

And then in the full book we have the sentences I think everyone focuses on:

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A shaman’s first obligation is to their tribe or cult. This takes precedence over all other obligations. A shaman only adventures when it is necessary to the tribe or cult.

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There is no leave of absence from being a shaman. Once tied into the Spirit World, there is no leaving, ever, except by being cast out from the tribe or cult.

However, exactly what that is seems to vary. None of the currently described shaman paths are exactly the same. I have two shamans (well, one is still assistant) in two different campaigns.

One is a Daka Fal follower, an outcast of his tribe, but literally carrying some of his ancestor's bones with him. His teacher is a spirit, and his main duty as a Shaman is to his ancestors and their memory, which also now means making some babies so the family line can continue... Summon Spirit teacher is a fun spell to stand in for a mentor until he manages to initiate fully.

The other is from a Spirit Cult tradition, there the cult is the spirit cult, and it wants worship and to be spread. Making the cult grow is the main thing, and to do that he needs to travel and tell tales of the spirit, and try to get others to worship it. Takes up a lot of time, yes, but also makes a character that can, indeed must, travel.

----

As for Priests and God-Talkers, I can't see how a priest is very workable in a more globetrotting campaign; having adventures to faraway places now and then won't be hard (we need you to go to XXX and ascertain if it really is the holy relic YYY that has been found and bring it back if it is, or we need you to go and support this other temple for a few seasons because the ehad priestess is gravely sick and we suspect shenanigans), but I see being a priest means that you want a community-focused campaign at heart.

If you want to be more free, god-talker is the way to go, almost the same benefits, and much more open to travel and adventure, the classic wandering preacher.

Edited March 9 by Malin

[French Desperate WindChild]

19 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

For example, in my game right now, the clans shaman has been away for 4 weeks already as an NPC but what he is doing relates to protecting the clan, and also sets up a need for my PCs to go help him.

and that's fine because it is to protect the clan . What I say is when players want to be "free" to move anywhere, even if it is not to save the clan, then they may not choose an occupation requiring to serve the community every day. Or they can choose it, but the community would probably decide to remove their position. Because they need someone who is required to serve the community every day.

And if someone is required to be away all the time for the safety of the clan, that means, somewhere, that another one should be appointed to stay in the community (the 90%)

And in that case, back to my previous point, I think a [non priest but with about the same "runic abilities" ] occupation may be defined for players who want to play the "actual priest" but free from any/a lot of the actual priest's duties.

 

[Malin]

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think a [non priest but with about the same "runic abilities" ] occupation may be defined for players who want to play the "actual priest" but free from any/a lot of the actual priest's duties.

Isn't that just a god-talker pretty much? Nothing says they can't get an allied spirit, just that it is rare.

[mfbrandi]

53 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think a [non priest but with about the same “runic abilities”] occupation may be defined for players who want to play the “actual priest” but free from any/a lot of the actual priest’s duties.

But then won’t all the players pick the non-priest priest option — not because they don’t want to serve their community, but because they’ll want the escape route … just in case?

Back in RQ2, it seems this was anticipated. The trick was to climb the greasy pole (to potential high priest) and then pick one of these:

• found your own temple, presumably small (be your own boss/tithe collector/religious entrepreneur);
• become a rune lord in training (and wander the earth smiting broo for the baby Jesus).

You paid your dues, and then you had options granting more freedom if you desired them. Or you could become a podgy high priest, boss your underlings about, and pronounce fatwas.

Have these routes to regained freedom of action been shut down in RQ:G?

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

But then won’t all the players pick the non-priest priest option

For the priestly path, yes. (Although, if the GodTalker isn't doing GodTalker-y things, then I don't think the priests would continue to want that person to be a GodTalker).

But what about for a shaman's path? Or the Rune Lord's?

I'm pretty sure a lot of players would love to have a 1D10 DI option, along with the free enchanted iron gear (and almost guaranteed Aliied Spirit).

TBH, the Allied Spirit should be fairly irrelevant... one can cast Summon and Command Cult Spirit, and thus get themselves a nice spirit with cult spells (sure, doesn't have some of the other other advantages (continual mind-to-mind, exchange of spells, MPs & RPs, and view through the other's senses).

[French Desperate WindChild]

19 hours ago, Malin said:

Isn't that just a god-talker pretty much? Nothing says they can't get an allied spirit, just that it is rare.

In my opinion, god-talker is "free" yes, they have a specific relationship with their gods (or they have a more specific relationship than initiates)..

but nothing says initiates can't get an allied spirit too, it is just even rarer. So the question is still why people want (and there are people who want) to play priest but without the duties of priests for their community. This why (aka this wish) may have a more consistent answer than "take a priest, and forget/adapt the rules about priest because MGF"

18 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

But then won’t all the players pick the non-priest priest option — not because they don’t want to serve their community, but because they’ll want the escape route … just in case?

there are players (at least me 🙂 ) who could pick a real priest option because they want to play a priest in charge of their local community.

All depends on the campaign. Sure if the campaign is "visit the world, in a group of weird friends - noone sharing the same pantheon, etc... so without any reason to say "but I m a real priest ! just my duty is my friends, one telmori, one elf, one seshnegi and I  the Orlanthi"-, fore sure I will not play a priest-priest but maybe a non-priest priest 😛 

Same if they are all of the same pantheon and all priests (what are your duty if the 5 guys with you are all priests of the same god ? 😛 or are just lay member of your god ?)

 

but if the campain is about a clan / a tribe. Centered on this kind of community.

I would expect scenarios in the community (raid, festival, diplomacy, good event, bad event, facing some ambitious rival or even a bad archi priest - or I would play the ambitious who wants the place of the "good" archi priest, ... thing like that) Scenario based on local event like king of dragon pass &co propose. That could be adapted to pc as individuals, once they are in the top of the hierarchy (aka not just initiates among the crowd but real priests, runelord, etc...) There is in these games realy good ideas in my opinion.

Of course I would expect one adventure outside every two or three in game years (bargain something, solving some curse with a pilgrimage, getting back a stolen regalia in Ralios, saving some kin seen in the slave market of Pavis two seasons ago, ...)

[radmonger]

23 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

And in that case, back to my previous point, I think a [non priest but with about the same "runic abilities" ] occupation may be defined for players who want to play the "actual priest" but free from any/a lot of the actual priest's duties.

 

I am not sure how explicit the rules are on this point, but as I play it, a Rune Priest is locked into the priest occupation. 

For a God Talker or Rune Lord, noble is possible for noble gods, warrior for martial ones, hunter for hunting gods, and so forth.

Having a matching occupation will naturally fulfill cult obligation so long as you have 90% downtime in your campaign. And if half of your adventures serve community goals, 80% downtime works, and so forth.

Cult allied spirits go to only the 'most stalwart and loyal', which would usually be a Rune Priest, but maybe your guy is the best candidate they have? All the other limitations of being a God Talker rather than a Rune Priest are community-focused, like not being able to initiate or exile people.

The gap in the rules is that it doesn't say how things work for a shaman. As I play it, a shaman will normally have one of two occupations. They can be a priest, providing magic to the community. Or they can be a noble, supported by the community to lead and deal with external threats.

In the Argrath era, you also see shamanic military units, and so warriors. It may also be possible for a shaman to survive as a hunter, working independently to protect the community without its support, or perhaps even knowledge.

 

[Darius West]

On 3/6/2024 at 1:03 AM, PhilHibbs said:

To me, the bigger problem is how do you run an adventuring campaign with a shaman-priest of Waha in the party, like Vishi Dunn becomes in the Vasana story.

In the story, it is glossed over. He continues to be a wandering adventurer. That's what most people are going to want to do. But there is no guidance on how to do this, all the rules in the book basically say you can't do it - they don't explicitly say this, but the most obvious interpretation is that it basically is end of adventuring career in the traditional sense. It's clearly a mistaken interpretation, but is a common initial assumption.

I have no problem, I can deal with this. I've dealt with it before in previous editions of the game, we can come up with our own mental gymnastics in our group to work around these problems because we're experienced RuneQuest players.

A lot of players are not, and are going to see these obligations as an impasse. This question is an example of this rules-versus-intent problem, the questioner asks how to cope with a 90% income tithe, and the official answer is "he gives 90% of his income to himself".

I disagree Phil.

Every religious official, whether Shaman, Priest, God Speaker or Rune Lord is supported by a community.   One's position as a religious authority is appointed and ordained by that community, and you work for them.  In return you get gear, magic powers and political power.

In the case of Waha Shaman-Khans, they serve their Clan.  They will be the obvious choice as a replacement for any other Khan presently acting as the Clan's leader, but they can also serve as a subordinate.  You have an over-Khan and an under-Khan.  Typically the under-khan is the "understudy" and gets the dangerous missions.  The under-khan is also expected to be working their way into positions of influence with the warrior societies, and is likely to be given responsibility over raiding parties and potentially over the clan warband on occasion.  The over-khan's job is to rule.  The over-khan makes and enforces the rules, and keeps the clan coherent and successful.  Generally it is the over-khan who leads the clan warband.  Ultimately a successful under-khan may win enough followers within the whole tribe, as well as their clan, to get enough followers together to form a clan of their own.  A good under-khan doesn't try to poach followers from their own clan to any great degree however. 

Within an Orlanthi clan, there is potentially more room for more Rune level people, as they have larger resources to draw upon.  The difference being that Orlanthi clans have Weaponthanes, and many of them will be Rune Lords, paid for and owning land provided for by the Clan.

In terms of tithes, one get to keep magical items, or one's clan gets first rights to purchase them, with the redeemed sum often being counted against one's owing tithe debts.  One's tithe falls due in the day after high holy day, if one cannot pay it weekly. 

Having transitioned to Rune Level, the character is now important.  They have a whole clan supporting them financially with land and labor.  They may be required to go heroquesting on the clan's behalf.  Their adventures will now be directed by the interests of more people than just their own.  This is not to suggest that they won't be adventuring anymore, but that the stakes will be higher than their personal survival alone.  They are a public property.   This is what being a tier 1 hero is like.