Rokugan BRP (Help Converting L5R Schools)

[conajofa]

Hi, 

While I'm advancing in the sidelines on my personal project, I also decided after a lot of unmeet schedules to reboot my L5R campaign. But also I decided that I prefer to GM it on BRP and so I'm doing a BRP Conversion/Hack based around L5R 4e and 5e things. I will put in spoilers the reasons for my moving to not clutter this too much.

Spoiler

• In the first and simplest place. I like BRP and GMing it in another hack can help me to understand where some things work and others don't.
• I didn't like the resolution process of 5e, that was our main campaign system. I feel my players didn't know what to do with opportunity and they really struggle interpreting Strife.
• I didn't like the focus towards combat that 4e has, the system for a little Yokiri spin-off. And while it way to gain "Levels" was one I appreciate as a concept the same as the masteries, it ended up overwhelming players and me alike.
• My players didn't like the restrictive nature of their school in 5e, liking more the freedom of 4e.
• But my players hated how 4e expressed social stuff, like forming a ally being a reward for leveling up.
• I decide to mash up both system in BRP so I only GM one system and start to grow mastery over it

For now this isn't that hard. There is a lot of information in how to do "Asian Fantasy BRP" and there is even this Runeblog Post [in spanish, my native tongue] that has been good for reference to some rules and converting magic for the Shugenja.

However, something I didn't find anywere is how to deal with Schools, that are a super important part of Rokugan and L5R, and an aspect I want to maintain.

For now, my idea is that Schools function as a Skill that only can be increased with a Mentor. Each 20 Points in the School ability to gain a "Rank" that is mostly used for social standing. But also each 10 Points you gain a "School Feat" that includes stuff like not suffering damage when Blocking Unarmed, increasing Stress (my version of Strife that is only negative emotions) when insulting someone, being better at convincing specific kinds of people, etc. Additionally, at Rank 1 you gain some extra use of Power Points based on the School philosophy.

This would allow somewhat for people to gain the right to learn other Schools (that are more close to Schools of Tought than institutions), and even to create some independent Schools.

But I want to know if this is a good idea and if there are other approaches I could use. What I'm looking is:

• Progress in School giving some mechanical benefit.
• A way to differientate the types of School (Courtier, Bushi/Warrior, Ninja, Monk, Shugenja)
• A way to differientate the Schools of the same type (Doji Courteir School being more about standard High Class Courtier, while the Ikoma Courteir School is about entertaintment and storytelling)

Thanks for all the help in advance!

[Mugen]

L5R schools have a lot in common with the cults you see in games such as RuneQuest or Mythras (which is the current name of RQ6). That is, a group of people that provide esoteric knowledge and powers to their members as they progress with the skills valued by the cult.

Reaching rank X in a school would require you to have at least X in every skill associated with the skill. In turn, being rank X would allow you to learn various powers taught by the school.

You could also take inspiration from Mythras Mysticism, Animism, and Combat Styles.

Note that @Runeblogger, who created the blog you mentioned, is a member of this forum. 

[svensson]

I'm interested to see how this project progresses! Keep us updated!

[Mugen]

Oh, and I missed the elephant in the room, Land of Ninja for RQ3, which is currently discussed in another thread.

[conajofa]

19 hours ago, Mugen said:

Reaching rank X in a school would require you to have at least X in every skill associated with the skill. In turn, being rank X would allow you to learn various powers taught by the school.

I thought about this but my problem is that, for what I read and its inspiration (the Classic Fantasy Rank system) is this seems to be very limitating in players having one school and never following another, as in this model Schools can have a lot of cross-skills (almost all Schools giving Dodge to their people, as it is an essential part of Rokugan culture). So, for example, if a player is in School A and then later also learn about School B but School B has similar skills to School A, then he automatically increase in Rank in the school.

Also, for my understanding, Schools on L5R are Schools of Thought, not institutions of people. You can have three different Dojos all teaching the same School and others at the same time.

[g33k]

28 minutes ago, conajofa said:

... So, for example, if a player is in School A and then later also learn about School B but School B has similar skills to School A, then he automatically increase in Rank in the school ...

Take a close look at the exact skills; "similar" skills isn't enough to advance Ranks.

Possibly add a few specific mandatory skills, such as School-specific Lores:
Even if the "skill list" of classic adventurers' skills is identical between the Grey Crane School & the School of the Reaching Storm, each also teaches (and requires for advancement in Rank) either Lore (Grey Crane) or Lore (Reaching Storm).

Returning to Mythras / ClassicFantasy (and the Class/Rank system there) -- multiclassing rules don't exist in the new Classic Fantasy Imperative book, I think; but they do exist in the main Classic Fantasy rules.

Edited April 22 by g33k

[Atgxtg]

If you are going to go with school feats and such, you might want to look at Mythras. Mythras had fighting styles rather than weapon skills, and has special abilities for characters with high combat skills. 

 

Another approach:

• Each school covers several related skills.For instance a school of kenjtsu (swordmanship) might teach Sword, Iaijutsu (Fast Draw), Dodge, Etiquette, and Poetry.
• When a character rolls to improve skills trained at the school,  add 1/10th their school skill to their improvement rolls (so they will improve faster from belonging to a school).
• Students will get a certain amount of free training in school related skills  each month equal to 1/5th their school skill, which can be saved up.
• Possibly add 1/10th school skill to their base chance in the rschool elated skills as well?
• A school could have one or more special techniques that become available at higher school ratings. These could be a combat special (like in Mythras), a magical effect like a spell, or even a Ki Skill from Land of the Ninja. Naturally for Rokukgan these would be those that fit a particular school. 

,

 

 

[Atgxtg]

33 minutes ago, conajofa said:

. So, for example, if a player is in School A and then later also learn about School B but School B has similar skills to School A, then he automatically increase in Rank in the school.

RQ2 had a rule for converting over similar skills (like say from Broadsword to Scimitar) where you could covert the skill over at half cost/training time. Something like that might be better than just automatically increasing in rank. You could have them improve twice as fast (2d6 instead of 1D6) to reflect the similarities.

[Mugen]

19 hours ago, conajofa said:

So, for example, if a player is in School A and then later also learn about School B but School B has similar skills to School A, then he automatically increase in Rank in the school.

Then, don't automatically increase ranks in schools, and consider those skill minimums as a guideline to consider when a master from a school will consider you're good enough to receive appropriate teachings.

If you've seen the manga/Anime Rurou ni Kenshin, that's exactly what happens between Kenshin and his master.

It also explains why Mirumoto Hitomi was able to be rank 5 in the Mirumoto school despite having Insight just slightly above rank 2. Well, that and poor proof-reading in 1e, too.

Edited April 23 by Mugen

[svensson]

On 4/22/2024 at 1:32 AM, Mugen said:

Oh, and I missed the elephant in the room, Land of Ninja for RQ3, which is currently discussed in another thread.

Let me also mention Mongoose RQ 'Samurai of Legend'. You can d/i that on the Mongoose website.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

Then, don't automatically increase ranks in schools, and consider those skill minimums as a guideline to consider when a master from a school will consider you're good enough to receive appropriate teachings.

If you've seen the manga/Anime Rurou ni Kenshin, that's exactly what happens between Kenshin and his master.

It also explains why Mirumoto Hitomi was able to be rank 5 in the Mirumoto school despite having Insight just slightly above rank 2. Well, that and poor proof-reading in 1e, too.

When I ran an L5R game, I gave the players two options when they reached a School Rank threshold:

a] You can return to your dojo for [6 - INT] months to learn the technique, or

b] You can adventure and accumulate CP until advance all School skills to the School Rank +1.

For example, Mirumoto Jin has enough experience to advance to Mirumoto Bushi School 3. His INT is 3. He may choose to journey back to Kyuden Mirumoto and take 3 months training with the sensei there OR he must advance all the school skills to Rank 4 for an automatic advance.

 

[svensson]

More to the point of the thread:

I LIKE the idea of treating your School like an RQ cult. I'm still tossing and turning the implications of that in my head, however. For bushi schools it ought to be fairly straight-forward. However, most bushi schools provide for a student to gain the ability to attack twice a round at School Rank [x], and that might get sticky when trying to use BRP mechanics.

I should also point out that parsing spells into elements is gonna something of a grind.

[conajofa]

11 hours ago, svensson said:

I should also point out that parsing spells into elements is gonna something of a grind.

I have been good, mostly because my Shugenja player has been "I want water and water and only water" so I focused my efforts on that.

11 hours ago, svensson said:

I LIKE the idea of treating your School like an RQ cult. I'm still tossing and turning the implications of that in my head, however. For bushi schools it ought to be fairly straight-forward. However, most bushi schools provide for a student to gain the ability to attack twice a round at School Rank [x], and that might get sticky when trying to use BRP mechanics.

The translation doesn't need to be total, mostly taking into account the mixture between 5e and 4e I'm doing in this D100. For now my idea is translate Raises to -10% reductions on ability, and making so Bushi Schools teach something that reduce the number of Raises needed for "extra attack".

And the Cult idea maybe can work, my biggest thing is making sure two Courtier of different Schools feel like two different Courtier of different schools. So trying to come up with good/interesting Bonuses and trying to avoid indulging to much on "you have a permanet +10% on X Skill".

Also because Schools on Rokugan are School of thought, IIRC there isn't an inherent solidarity between members of the same school. Cults are more Dojos, Families and Clans in that sense. But I know that Classic Fantasy also uses Rank-like-cult for simple level up mechanics.

Edited April 24 by conajofa

[Mugen]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

Let me also mention Mongoose RQ 'Samurai of Legend'. You can d/i that on the Mongoose website.

It was already mentioned in the "Runeblog post" mentioned in the OP. 🙂 

 

1 hour ago, conajofa said:

Also because Schools on Rokugan are School of thought, IIRC there isn't an inherent solidarity between members of the same school.

I disagree.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, conajofa said:

... And the Cult idea maybe can work, my biggest thing is making sure two Cortesans of different Schools feel like two different Cortesans of different schools. So trying to come up with good/interesting Bonuses and trying to avoid indulging to much on "you have a permanet +10% on X Skill" ...

How do you (or do you, even?) separate / distinguish two swordsmen, from two different schools of swordsmanship?

However you differentiate the swordsmen, I'd pursue a similar strategy in differentiating any other set of schools focused on the same field.

[svensson]

4 minutes ago, g33k said:

How do you (or do you, even?) separate / distinguish two swordsmen, from two different schools of swordsmanship?

However you differentiate the swordsmen, I'd pursue a similar strategy in differentiating any other set of schools focused on the same field.

OK, I was a fighter in the SCA for many years and, yes, you CAN tell the difference between between who trained who if you're observant enough.

Since we're dealing with Oriental martial arts tropes here, we'll stick with their narrative descriptions.

In Rokugan certain styles are broadcast loud and clear by their students. The Mirumoto school is the only school that uses the niten, or two sword, technique, while the Hida school focuses on heavy armors and weapons [the tetsubo great club, the die tsuchi war maul, the o-no war axe etc.]. Now, ALL bushi are trained in kenjustu. It is the basic form of warfare, after all. But a bushi's specific school can be told by their footwork, posture, grip, and demeanor; all this together is referred to as your 'stance'. Each stance is unique to each school. The wild card is when you're facing a ronin who was taught by the 'dojo of hard knocks'... their stance is a mix of everything that he thinks works plus a couple things he's only heard of.

[conajofa]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

How do you (or do you, even?) separate / distinguish two swordsmen, from two different schools of swordsmanship?

For now is the idea of the Feats.

So, for example. I have this for now:

• Matsu Berzerker School: Feats based on being on Total Offensive Posture and the general berzerker feeling.
  • At the start of a Round, you can select one target. If you hit the target and do an Injury, you can immediatly roll Intimidation + Glory Bonus (I'm using Glory/Honor/Status like a Skill that can augment by 1/5 certain rolls) against the target POW (translated to WILL for my players) to paralyze them.
  • When on Total Offensive Posture, you gain an additional +10% to all your Attacks roll in that posture.
  • Spending a Power Point, you can ignore any penalties due to injuries or fear.
• Mirumoto Two-Heavens School: Feats based on taking advantage of using two swords.
  • If you have two weapons, you can augment your Parry by your Skill in the second weapon (so your Parry tends to be Kenjutsu + Kenjustu/5)
  • If you score a Special Success with your first weapon, you can do a second attack with the second weapon at Half the Skill
  • Spending a Power Point, you can add your second weapon damage as Bonus Damage to a Special Success hit.

In this same manner, for Courtier I have this:

• Doji Diplomat School: This is for me most problematic one because they are the Generalist School, for now I have
  • As long as you maintain a High Honor, you gain a permanent +10% to all your Social Skills in Court
  • You can give bonuses to other people throught gifts. When you give a Gift to someone, they augment their social Skills by yours when acting according to what you wanted from the Gift.
  • Some Unarmed Things like using the other person Characteristics because they are also de creators of Mitzu-Do [weird Rokugani Aikido]
• Ikoma Bard School: Mostly storytellers and troubadors that have more freedom to display emotions.
  • You can use one Art Skill related to storytelling (from music to storytelling itself) as the Battle [a mixture of Command and Strategy] and Courtesy [persuasion basically] Skill.
  • You can recover Power Points of others by entertainment instead of meditation.
  • You augment all your Knowledge Skills by one Art Skill related to storytelling.

What I'm looking is:

How to pace this so players have somewhat control on their advancement

And how to allow players to have access to other School or at least "generic feats" like Cadenza, that is a language of Courteirs that needs specialize training but technically any Courteir can learn it, not only the Doji (even if they invent it).

Edited April 24 by conajofa

[svensson]

@conajofa

Respectfully, Conajofa, you keep using the word 'courtesan' for 'courtier'. In English a courtesan is a high priced and highly educated prostitute, a step above an 'escort' because courtesans are expected to be able to mix with high society without a problem.

I mean absolutely NO disrespect to you and I acknowledge the possibility that the spelling was intentional. There are a lot of similarities between a European courtesan and a Japanese geisha, after all.

I hope I haven't offended you. If so, it was unintentional.

[conajofa]

46 minutes ago, svensson said:

I mean absolutely NO disrespect to you and I acknowledge the possibility that the spelling was intentional. There are a lot of similarities between a European courtesan and a Japanese geisha, after all.

Oh!

No problem I will edit it.

ESL, so probably a mistranslation of "Cortesano"

Thanks for the help!

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, conajofa said:

ESL, so probably a mistranslation of "Cortesano"

It's not a mistranslation, but an example of how society and language changes over time.

 

Originally the word courtesan mean a female courtier, that being a person who attends a powerful person of status' (i.e. a noble) court, and was some sort of retainer, knight, or in the case of a female, a lady of the court. The word was borrowed into English where overtime, as the definition of a powerful person of status shifted, so did the role of a lady who attends one. Geisha is somewhat similar in the artistic and social skills requires, but lacks the social stigma that is attached in the West. Mistress is also similar. The word courtesan is somewhat archaic today, and is mostly used as a polite way to refer to a member of  the oldest profession. 

 

So the word does/did mean what you thought it meant, but it has a secondary meaning in English that is much better known. 

 

[svensson]

7 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It's not a mistranslation, but an example of how society and language changes over time.

 

Originally the word courtesan mean a female courtier, that being a person who attends a powerful person of status' (i.e. a noble) court, and was some sort of retainer, knight, or in the case of a female, a lady of the court. The word was borrowed into English where overtime, as the definition of a powerful person of status shifted, so did the role of a lady who attends one. Geisha is somewhat similar in the artistic and social skills requires, but lacks the social stigma that is attached in the West. Mistress is also similar. The word courtesan is somewhat archaic today, and is mostly used as a polite way to refer to a member of  the oldest profession. 

 

So the word does/did mean what you thought it meant, but it has a secondary meaning in English that is much better known. 

 

Good point, Atx.

Edited April 24 by svensson

[svensson]

@conajofa @Atgxtg

Thanks for being understanding. My wife tells me that I can come across as arrogant when I'm trying to be polite. /shrug

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

@conajofa @Atgxtg

Thanks for being understanding. My wife tells me that I can come across as arrogant when I'm trying to be polite. /shrug

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

Don't worry, it looked to me like a communication error. At least you didn't say her dress was colorful. That is was a diplomat say to a Japanese woman at a social at an embassy party. Unfortunate he attempted to say it in Japanese, and the Japanese word for colorful is very similar to a Japanese word not used at diplomatic events. So compared to that - your golden.

 

  

[conajofa]

Going back on topic, I'm settling on this idea:

There are Great and Minor Schools:

Both Schools have an associated Learning skill, like, for example, "Doji Diplomat Learning" or "Matsu Berzerker Learning"

Great Schools are heavily based on @Atgxtg. They have 7 associated skills. These Skills are benefit by faster learning, having a bonus equal to 1/5 of the Learning associated Skill to the Training Roll and a bonus equal to their Rank to the ammount of Experience they accrue on that skills. Even if a character is part of multiple schools that benefit the same Skill, they only benefit from the highest bonus.

The Rank of the character represents how many Tecniques (Feats) they can learn. Equal to their Rank x 2.

Characters increase Rank based on Classic Fantasy Mythras rules, using the Skills of the School:

• Rank 1 = 5 Skills at 50%
• Rank 2 = 5 Skills at 70%
• Rank 3 = 4 Skills at 90%
• Rank 4 = 3 Skills at 110%
• Rank 5 = 2 Skills at 130%
• Rank 6+ = 2 Skills at previous value +20%

Additionaly to fulfill the requisites, the character needs to find a Master of their School or fulfill the requisites of the next Rank to completely fulfill their training in the new Rank and learn the new Techniques.

Minor Schools represent single lines of Techniques like Martial Arts or Debate Styles. This depends only on their Learning + Single Skill. For example Mitzu-Do [Rokugan Aikido] would be Minor School. The requisites are more easy to fulfill in exchange for a more narrow focus, with each Rank giving access to one specific technique.

• Rank 1 = 2 Skills at 50%
• Rank 2 = 2 Skills at 60%
• Rank 3 = 2 Skills at 70%
• Rank 4 = 2 Skills at 80%
• Rank 5 = 2 Skills at 90%

For people that know about Legend of the Five Rings [ @svensson ], Minor Schools are my approximation to the Paths in contrast to the Schools. But I will admit Minor Schools still don't convince me, but it can be my perfectionism kicking in.

[Atgxtg]

44 minutes ago, conajofa said:

For people that know about Legend of the Five Rings [ @svensson ], Minor Schools are my approximation to the Paths in contrast to the Schools. But I will admit Minor Schools still don't convince me, but it can be my perfectionism kicking in.

If you want to distinguish between the two, you You could use Ryo or Bujutsu (Science or Study of War) for School and Budo (Way or Path of War) for the minor schools. 

Edited April 24 by Atgxtg