Malkioni 'grey area' questions

[PaulJW]

I have a few questions on the Malkioni way (mainly to do with caste restrictions) that fall into 'grey areas' in my mind.  I was wondering what peoples thoughts on these issues were:

1) Trade falls within the purview of talars - but to what extent?  And how does this relate to dromali merchants?  I am guessing major trade deals between cities/peoples would be an issue for talars.  At the other end of the scale a street food merchant would, I assume, probably be a dromali.  So both talars and dromali are potentially 'merchants' - but the only difference is one of scale.  Is that how other people see it?  My logic is the Trader Princes are merchants ergo at least some talars are merchants.  I don't think talars would sell street food in a market, ergo dromali can also be merchants.

2) In orthodox Malkionism, dromali should not carry weapons.  Does this also mean they should not wear armour?  After all, wearing armour is not something you'd associate with farming (for example).  Maybe in ultra orthodox Brithinism this actually is a thing & in more liberal forms of Malkionism not?

3) Dromali can't use weapons?  But what about fist fights?  And how about martial arts??

4) Dromali farmers /herders are not supposed to use weapons - since they are not warriors and the role of the warrior is the purview of the warrior caste.  But bronze age farmers used weapons such as slings and clubs a lot to protect their animals from wolves etc.  To what extent is there a case for saying dromali should use slings and clubs for livestock protection??

5) zzaburi are also not supposed to 'use' weapons.  However, what about ritual weapons used in magic rituals (eg a ceremonial sword, sickle or dagger etc)?  Presumably this is OK since these weapons are ceremonial/ritual rather than practical (provided they are used for magic rituals and never for combat that is).  

6) Scribes?  zzaburi or dromali caste?  Or potentially both?

Any thoughts?

Edited July 23 by PaulJW

[Nevermet]

I have not engaged texts for this, but here are my initial opinions.

1. To use anachronistic language, Talars set policy.  Who to trade with, what are the taxes, etc.  Dromali merchants are the ones in the stalls, haggling and figuring out how to execute the Talars goals.  I think the Trader Princes are probably unusual in the centrality of ancestor worship related to Issaries' children.  According to the Lightbringer book, the Trader Princes are Goldentongue.  I suspect the Dromali would be more Garzeen.
    
2. There may be a "in case of invasion" clause for rising a militia out of the Dromali, but yeah, probably not too much armor
    
3. Commoners across the world know how to wrestle and punch, and I'd imagine that's the case for the Dromali too.  Also, in militia situations, they would have weapons that have other uses: spears, bows, pitchforks, daggers etc.  Dromali wouldn't be proficient with things that are exclusively weapons (swords, halberds, etc)
    
4. As above, I fully expect Dromali would know how to use tools that are sometimes weapons.  So, yeah, slings would definitely be on the list.  But the average Dromali would be less combat ready than the average Sartarite farmer / herder.  The average Horali, though...
    
5. I think I'd agree with you
    
6. Depends on the specific Malkioni population, I suspect.  The Blues may be the only literate people in some communities.  In others, there may be sections of the other castes who can read, at which point the drudgery of copying scrolls etc would be outsourced to them.

Edited July 23 by Nevermet

[Nevermet]

Another point I didn't emphasize enough.  I fully expect there is no 1 set of answers that applies perfectly to all those regions.  The Trader Princes are Hrestoli followers of a singular hero, on top of a rural Orlanthi culture (the Manirians).  Their answers to those questions will not be the same as they are in the urban & diverse area around Safelster, or the puritanical Rokari, or the Idealists of Loskalm.  As a guess, the smaller a population, or the more its about western influenced culture than something more institutionalized, there will be more flexibility and acceptance of gray areas. Meanwhile, the Rokari probably have exact measurements for what makes a spear a hunting tool vs a weapon of war.

[Joerg]

All of this strictly IMG:

58 minutes ago, PaulJW said:

1) Trade falls within the purview of talars - but to what extent?  And how does this relate to dromali merchants?

Talars manage international trade and resource management. They oversee greater operations like mines or plantations that have to do with land ownership.

Commoners will oversee craft guilds. They might run cargo services (river barges, wagons, mule trains) between cities, but only on behalf of guilds or talars, not as autonomous merchants.

Talars won't sell grocery in the cities or peddle everyday wares in rural areas. They might peddle luxuries or rarer stuff to other talars or zzaburi or to soldier societies. They oversee military or ship outfitters. They won't run mills, but they may oversee mill quotas or dairy quotas.

Loskalm with its meritocratic society does not include trade in the list of duties of their noble caste (i.e. those who went all the way through warrior man-of-all and at least  pro-forma wizard zzaburi or philosopher).

In Loskalm, higher trade and even jurisdiction begins with commoner Guardians, a preparatory stage for Man-of-All status that many never leave, but that gives them access to niceties like literacy and weapon training.

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

My logic is the Trader Princes are merchants ergo at least some talars are merchants.  I don't think talars would sell street food in a market, ergo dromali can also be merchants.

Dromali may be vendors and peddlers, but not quite merchants. Vendors on behalf of a powerful (i.e. rich) guild might be as influential as talar metchants, but only on guld grounds (inclcuding guild stalls on the local market).

Dromali can be foremen and craft masters, ships' mates and navigators - leaders of other commoners and making decisions for and on behalf of higher castes

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

2) In orthodox Malkionism, dromali should not carry weapons.  Does this also mean they should not wear armour?  After all, wearing armour is not something you'd associate with farming (for example).  Maybe in ultra orthodox Brithinism this actually is a thing & in more liberal forms of Malkionism not?

.Armor is highly specialized fighting outfit and taboo for dromali. Protective clothing - e.g. leather gear for metal workers who handle molten metal, head protection for miners - is appropriate and allowed.

Zzaburi avoid armor as a hindrance to their magical activities.

Orthodox Talar commanders on the battlefield are supposed to wear armor. Merchant talars riding through wilderness or potentially hostile foreign territory will wear some armor, possibly as much for ostentation as for actual use.

Rokari Talars have assumed most of the rights and duties of Old Hrestoli Men-of-All, giving them free access to any noble weapon. Probably not including crossbows, pikes or crowd-suppression pole arms, but swords, lances, maces and axes will be fine, as will noble hunting gear (bows, lances, javelins).

Rokari peasants called onto the battle field may wield spears and sharpened farming tools, and possibly slings, but only when supervised by suitable authority (Talars, possibly Holari soldiers). Absent such overseers (i.e. when in rebellion) wielding such is a punishable offense.

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

3) Dromali can't use weapons?  But what about fist fights?  And how about martial arts??

Dromali beating other Dromali with fists, hammers, sickles or axes lose Rightness outside of mutually agreed upon competitions. There might be dances resembling martial arts katas, and wrestling and the art of evading blows is most likely well regarded.

Wrestling is fine for Horali, but even Talars would participate in wrestling competitions for the hand of the daughter of a neighboring noble - that's how the warfare between the Pendali and Froalar's Malkioni broke lose the year after the Dawn, as a talar ruling one of Froalar's lesser "cities" accidentally killed the king of a neighboring Pendali tribe in a competition for the daughter of one of the tribal chiefs overseeing a fortress.

Field officers are supposed to be able to dodge and evade even in orthodox Brithini society. The more progressive Brithini field commander talars might even parry or deal damage with symbols of rulership and justice.

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

4) Dromali farmers /herders are not supposed to use weapons - since they are not warriors and the role of the warrior is the purview of the warrior caste.  But bronze age farmers used weapons such as slings and clubs a lot to protect their animals from wolves etc.  To what extent is there a case for saying dromali should use slings and clubs for livestock protection??

That, thrown rocks, stuff that makes loud sounds, possibly lassos or slings or hooked or branched staves to hold down beasts. Probably wooden spears, throwing clubs (boomerangs?), and hatchets

Originally, Horali would fight dangerous beasts in organized hunts or standing guard, but would not go hunting for meat. With the adoption of Beast Warrior societies (probably as early as the Serpent Kings adopting or conquering neighboring Pendali tribes) hunting became a warrior skill.

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

5) zzaburi are also not supposed to 'use' weapons.  However, what about ritual weapons used in magic rituals (eg a ceremonial sword, sickle or dagger etc)?  Presumably this is OK since these weapons are ceremonial/ritual rather than practical (provided they are used for magic rituals and never for combat that is). 

Clearly caste-oriented symbols would only receive Zzaburi blessings or boosts, but would not be used in the way the associated caste does. There might be ritual use of flensing knives to produce living stationary, or alchemical or astronomical tools. Some signaling might be acceptable within Rightness, but no military commands.

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

6) Scribes?  zzaburi or dromali caste?  Or potentially both?

Tricky.

In Danmalastan (pre-Gods War Old Brithela), there was an entire tribe of Logicians whose tribal ability was writing regardless of Caste, the Tadeniti. Since the tribes shared their specialities (frex the Kadeniti building and city planning was applied by all the tribes), the pre-Dawn Logicians might have been a widely literate ethnicity, including at least those Dromali dealing with advanced (urban) activities.

In Brithini orthodoxy, Talars appear to be literate, but might not be well-lettered. Talars would be expected to have numeracy and do tallying. Masters of crafts (and probably journeymen) from the Dromali caste might be allowed literacy and numeracy, too.

Orthodox Malkioni (including Old Hrestoli) probably have an endogamous Zzaburi caste which might produce individuals who are less capable as sorcerers. These may still be "philosophers" and might be scribes, archivars, astronomers, or record-keepers (scribes). Orthodox Talars are (among other things) judges, and need some literacy to access written laws or recorded first Right judgements.

Looking at sixth and seventh century Jrustela, it seems that even the (urban) commoners participated actively in the philosophical debate that enabled "a popular state of near-henosis enabling the Abiding Book to manifest itself through an invisible hand writing down the Ultimate Ratio and its precedents". That assumes strong familiarity with earlier scripture and with new tractates discussing the God Learning of the Malkioni philosophy - deducing the Logic of the Invisible God and making sense of the Laws.

Modern Malkioni are hardly orthodox in this regard. Part of Hrestol's Revelation was that members from any caste were allowed to aspire to Man-of-All-dom, with literacy the basis of the Zzaburi contribution to the All. Undergoing Man-of-All training supervised by trainers from the appropriate caste allowed Malkioni to obtain skills from the other castes, and individuals who failed to achieve Henosis had no way to unlearn that training. But Old Hrestoli non-warriors who learned the way of the sword in the course of Man-of-All training would lose Rightness if applying those skills outside of accepted training context.

Self study on approved scripture probably was allowed without direct supervision of a Zzaburi, but only publicly accessible scripture or assigned-task scripture.

Rokari society probably restricts literacy among the worker caste. They might allow idograms, possibly stamps or seals for those.

[scott-martin]

Great answers throughout so I'm just going to piggyback so to speak

7. Animal riding.

[Nevermet]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Great answers throughout so I'm just going to piggyback so to speak

7. Animal riding.

I don't remember anything off the top of my head.

As a guess?  The Brown Caste will often have a value in using animals, but riding animals is for people who need to get somewhere fast, and that's usually not for them.  Talars need to survey their kingdom, Horali need to get to battle, and Zzuburi may need to get places despite their venerable age.

 

I feel something like that argument would hold sway some places.  Not the Trader Princes, but elsewhere.  I could imagine something like that for Kaxtorplose.  And I'd imagine the Ramalians would promote something similar.

Edited July 23 by Nevermet

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, PaulJW said:

 

1) Trade falls within the purview of talars - but to what extent?  

Only for the Brithini is this true.  As far back as the Genertela Boxed sect, both the Rokari and the Hrestoli placed merchants within the farmer caste.  

4 hours ago, PaulJW said:

2) In orthodox Malkionism, dromali should not carry weapons.  Does this also mean they should not wear armour?  After all, wearing armour is not something you'd associate with farming (for example).  Maybe in ultra orthodox Brithinism this actually is a thing & in more liberal forms of Malkionism not?

I think this is taking reasoning a bit too far.  Hunting is a common occupation and one would like armour against the more dangerous animals.  

4 hours ago, PaulJW said:

3) Dromali can't use weapons?  But what about fist fights?  And how about martial arts??

The Dronars are not warriors but they are not categorically prohibited from weapon-use.  Spears, hammers, axes, knives and other tool-like weapons are all legitimate for them to have and wield.  It is only when it gets to non-civilian use weapons - like a sword or a morning star - that you have problems.

4 hours ago, PaulJW said:

Any thoughts?

A simple one - just because the Brithini do things one way doesn't mean the other malkioni are obliged to agree with them.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

7. Animal riding.

What's the problem?  I think you are confusing social class with caste.  A member of a caste may not do one thing.  A common peasant riding a warhorse however arouses suspicion, not becuase he has broken caste but because he looks like a horse-thief.

[scott-martin]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I think you are confusing social class with caste.

All right. Which caste is cavalry then?

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

All right. Which caste is cavalry then?

Talar, Man-of-All and some Horali. Not sure about Zzaburi - that's closer to palanquin or carriage.

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

All right. Which caste is cavalry then?

Horals are capable of fighting as cavalry therefore it is part of their caste.  There has been some silly syllogizing in the past about how they couldn't but the caste rules are made by the Wizards not Gods (cf for example, merchants). 

Edited July 23 by metcalph

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, PaulJW said:

I have a few questions on the Malkioni way (mainly to do with caste restrictions) that fall into 'grey areas' in my mind.  I was wondering what peoples thoughts on these issues were:

1) Trade falls within the purview of talars - but to what extent?  And how does this relate to dromali merchants?  I am guessing major trade deals between cities/peoples would be an issue for talars.  At the other end of the scale a street food merchant would, I assume, probably be a dromali.  So both talars and dromali are potentially 'merchants' - but the only difference is one of scale.  Is that how other people see it?  My logic is the Trader Princes are merchants ergo at least some talars are merchants.  I don't think talars would sell street food in a market, ergo dromali can also be merchants.

2) In orthodox Malkionism, dromali should not carry weapons.  Does this also mean they should not wear armour?  After all, wearing armour is not something you'd associate with farming (for example).  Maybe in ultra orthodox Brithinism this actually is a thing & in more liberal forms of Malkionism not?

3) Dromali can't use weapons?  But what about fist fights?  And how about martial arts??

4) Dromali farmers /herders are not supposed to use weapons - since they are not warriors and the role of the warrior is the purview of the warrior caste.  But bronze age farmers used weapons such as slings and clubs a lot to protect their animals from wolves etc.  To what extent is there a case for saying dromali should use slings and clubs for livestock protection??

5) zzaburi are also not supposed to 'use' weapons.  However, what about ritual weapons used in magic rituals (eg a ceremonial sword, sickle or dagger etc)?  Presumably this is OK since these weapons are ceremonial/ritual rather than practical (provided they are used for magic rituals and never for combat that is).  

6) Scribes?  zzaburi or dromali caste?  Or potentially both?

Any thoughts?

Malkionism is at its core a Humanistic view of the universe; where the individual human is the most important part of the cosmos. So always Malkioni ask - what is the most rational way for humans to live and to organise their society.

Malkion, like Socrates and Plato, concluded that human societies are best organized into groups of specialists. At the base and most numerous, are those that work the soil, build the buildings, craft pottery, cloth, and so on, and who do manual labour. They are the Workers.

Then there are those who fight on behalf of the community. These people specialise in combat and war. They are supported by the Workers. They are the Soldiers.

Then there are those who specialise in magic and interact between this world and the otherworld on behalf of the community. This takes many years of study and training to become competent. They are supported by the Workers. They are the Wizards.

Finally there are those who mediate between these groups and determine the overall direction of the community. They also interact with outsiders and barbarians. They are the judges, the merchants, the Rulers.

Of course this framework does not answer everything. How do people get assigned to a type of activity? Are they born into it, assigned by their community, assigned by themselves? And what happens when this framework meets the messy world? When former barbarians become Rulers?

Start from here, and then imagine how a Malkioni might answer your questions. 

[metcalph]

FWIW this is how the Genertela box set (caveat for old material) sorted out certain occupations to caste.

Carmania

Nobles:  Noble, Merchants

Wizards:  Priest, Scribes, Adepts

Commoners: Healers

Seshnela:

Nobles:  Nobles

Wizards: Adepts, Healers, Scribes

Commoners: Merchants.

 

[metcalph]

I don't think the Castes are like Gods (ie there is a Caste Founder who exists in the Hero-plane and who can be contacted for definite answers as to what is and is not permissible).  If such Founders do exist, they would only give obsolete answers that will no longer work.  Case in point: is it permissible for a warrior to worship Humakt?  Horal says no since he never did but the Wizards of today using Napoleon's dictum about God being on the side of the Big Battalions have allowed his worship.  So the Caste is what the wizards say it is.

How caste definitions get changed is probably a lot like legislation.  IMO a conclave of wizards debates the changes to be made and only if there is agreement do they proceed to the enactment.  This is an extensive casting of spells that creates and maintains the canonical form of the caste on the heroplane so people can acquire rightness by acting in harmony with it.

Although the Men-of-all has been spoken of as a fifth caste, I do not believe the wizards have anything to do with it.  Instead it is a subversive technique that abuses the standard caste definitions to achieve a higher spiritual status.  Throughout most of Malkionism, the Men-of-All are tolerated or persecuted depending on whether they were nobles to begin with.  A commoner or warrior seeking to combine the castes will be set upon by the Nobility and the Wizards when they become aware of the usurpation of privileges.  Nobles can be Men-of-All without hinderance so long as they remain on good terms with their more orthodox relatives (the wizards may despise them but can't do much).  Wizards seeking the same have it toughest due their entire hierarchy being opposed to the Men-of-All.

[PaulJW]

14 hours ago, scott-martin said:

7. Animal riding.

Here it might be worth considering how things worked in ancient and medieval times.  Horses were expensive, especially horses used for war.  Indeed, there was actually a difference between horses used for war and horses used for ambling about the countryside.  War horses were astronomically expensive.  In Malkioni terms I suspect that means that, practically, only nobles and warriors who were supplied horses by the state could even have one.

Common horses were only used for travel and maybe hunting (if you went hunting on horseback - which was more a rich person's thing).

Other modes of transport like the carriage and the horse litter were very very rare, even in wealthier medieval countries.  The only people who travelled in such things in medieval England were the rich.  In the case of carriages, only the ultra-rich - i.e. queens and duchesses (the medieval English had a thing about men not riding in such things unless they were sick - the king was supposed to ride on a horse to prove that he was hail and hearty).  I suppose zzaburi might travel in this way (although possibly not carriages - such things were only for the ultra-rich - perhaps only for the wives of the most powerful talars and her personal servants).

Horse was the fastest way to travel.  So I can see them used by people depending on need.  On that basis I suspect:

Talars - travel by fine warhorse over any distance.  Perhaps on a horse litter for important ceremonial occasions.  Their wives and daughters may be more likely to use horse litters and carriages (if very rich), or a palfrey-type horse for general use (that would be a small horse of no use for war). (Medieval English noblewomen would most often ride palfreys or a larger more practical horse for hunting - but that may or may not be an appropriate pastime for a Malkioni noblewoman).

zzaburi - horse litters for short journeys.  A fine horse for long journeys if they need to make them in the course of performing their duties.  But never a warhorse.

Holari - war horses for war.  Possibly a fast common horse for carrying military messages.

Dromali - generally walking since most cannot afford a horse.  Horses issued to Dromali by talars for specific purposes (e.g. if the talar needs one of his servants to take a message for him to another talar he will give the servant a fast horse for the purpose, if he needs some dromali to accompany the army as cooks, craftsmen etc they might get a horse to be able to keep up, or ride on a wagon containing supplies etc).  Dromali may use horses or oxen to plough fields of course & to tie to a wagon to take produce into town - but these are not really riding animals.

This does however posit a medieval level of horse technology (i.e. where horses were bred for different purposes).  In our bronze age horses were not ridden that much at all since they were too small - hence we call the late bronze age the age of the chariot.  (Although there is evidence to show bronze age nobles may have started riding on horse back for leisure/hunting by the end of the bronze age).

Edited July 24 by PaulJW

[PaulJW]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Nobles:  Noble, Merchants

I am guessing not in God Forgot.  Otherwise Talar Barat is going to be a busy boy.

Edited July 24 by PaulJW

[PaulJW]

12 hours ago, metcalph said:

A simple one - just because the Brithini do things one way doesn't mean the other malkioni are obliged to agree with them.

Indeed.  In fairness, I deliberately picked questions that I thought different Malkioni sects were likely to argue over.

[radmonger]

16 hours ago, PaulJW said:

1) Trade falls within the purview of talars - but to what extent?  And how does this relate to dromali merchants?  I am guessing major trade deals between cities/peoples would be an issue for talars.  At the other end of the scale a street food merchant would, I assume, probably be a dromali.  So both talars and dromali are potentially 'merchants' - but the only difference is one of scale.  Is that how other people see it?  My logic is the Trader Princes are merchants ergo at least some talars are merchants.  I don't think talars would sell street food in a market, ergo dromali can also be merchants.

To pickup on this particular point, think of the cult restriction that Yelmalians have to deal only in gold, not silver. 

It is plausible that is an echo or imitation of Talar caste restrictions; Yelmalians did only recently claim the right to take on the role of ruler. The details of it being gold versus silver may come via Dara Happa. But the distinction between funding and payment may come from ur-Malkionism somewhere.

If so, Talars can fund a temple, regiment or festival. They cannot pay for a snack, nor can they receive payment.

This means that in sufficiently orthodox Malkioni lands, street food vendors simply do not exist. Instead, there are communal kitchens, existing wherever a Talar decided it was necessary and useful for them to be. Temporary stands are common at festivals, handing out whatever they have until it runs out.

Of course, few if any lands are that orthodox; in most cases Dronali street vendors do exist, as a caste violation. The Zzaburi have mostly given up on asking for the laws against them to be enforced, though sometimes a young hothead takes the matter into their own hands.

Which is, of course, itself a caste violation.

 

 

 

Edited July 24 by radmonger

[PaulJW]

13 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Talars need to survey their kingdom,

If he is like a medieval or ancient noble (all of whom spent a lot of time on the road doing just that), he'll need to travel with his household entourage - a holari guard (horses), one or two zzaburi advisors (probably also on horse or perhaps horse litters), a whole bunch of dromali servants (some on horses and some in wagons with all the paraphernalia and supplies).  A few might be walking but in general medieval nobles got their entire households to horse up for travel (more practical and if they had people walking on foot it might make onlookers think the household was poor). 

[PaulJW]

17 hours ago, PaulJW said:

1) Trade falls within the purview of talars - but to what extent?  And how does this relate to dromali merchants?  I am guessing major trade deals between cities/peoples would be an issue for talars.  At the other end of the scale a street food merchant would, I assume, probably be a dromali.  So both talars and dromali are potentially 'merchants' - but the only difference is one of scale.  Is that how other people see it?  My logic is the Trader Princes are merchants ergo at least some talars are merchants.  I don't think talars would sell street food in a market, ergo dromali can also be merchants.

My own thoughts on my own question, for what its worth, is (in general - and by that I mean purist Brithini excluded):

Talars = capitalists (inn owners, bankers, shop owners, organisers of large caravans etc).  Or to look at it another way - the business owner come sales director.

Dromali = Tennants & street traders (inn keepers, market stall vendors, street food sellers, peddlers, shop keepers, the lord's representatives who physical travel with the large caravans and do all the lower level buying and selling on his behalf etc). Or to look at it another way - the salesman.

Edited July 24 by PaulJW

[metcalph]

27 minutes ago, PaulJW said:

I am guessing not in God Forgot.  Otherwise Talar Barat is going to be a busy boy.

There's an awful lot of non-Malkioni in God Forgot.  About 2,000 Issarites according to CoR: Mythology.  How the Country actually functions will be interesting to read.

[PaulJW]

16 hours ago, Nevermet said:

at which point the drudgery of copying scrolls etc would be outsourced to them.

Although it would be hard to reflect this in RQ rules, in medieval England there were many people employed as copyists who could not read.  i.e. their job was to make copies of documents - a boring but necessary task in a society where there was no printing presses.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

Although it would be hard to reflect this in RQ rules, in medieval England there were many people employed as copyists who could not read.  i.e. their job was to make copies of documents - a boring but necessary task in a society where there was no printing presses.

Craft (Script) instead of Read/Write.

[scott-martin]

5 hours ago, PaulJW said:

horses were bred for different purposes

IMG this has just solved an ancient question about the materialist origins of the dawn age west: how to integrate the early pony people into the "colonial" narrative.

The syllogism is superficially silly: for [cavalry] is required a [horse], where chivalry, caballeria, cabala, creole "kavalye(z)." But it also requires a rider. All were bred for different purposes and ultimately Hrestol rides through the ancient forest where the lions have already learned to hate the horse.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

IMG this has just solved an ancient question about the materialist origins of the dawn age west: how to integrate the early pony people into the "colonial" narrative.

The syllogism is superficially silly: for [cavalry] is required a [horse], where chivalry, caballeria, cabala, creole "kavalye(z)." But it also requires a rider. All were bred for different purposes and ultimately Hrestol rides through the ancient forest where the lions have already learned to hate the horse.

Hrestol is the great Horse Man.