Help for a New DM

[Vic4fun]

Hello everyone, my first post here and I would like some help.
I'm a new DM at BRP, I've always liked D100 games (Here in Brazil we have a system in this style called Daemon) but with the Reference Document I finally managed to acquire BRP, which has always been one of the systems I most wanted to play, However, after reading the manual I would like help with creating a medieval fantasy campaign.
My question is how to make characters from non-human races, dwarven elves and halflings already exist in the book and I would like to use them in my campaign but I like to use point buy and what would be their initial values so as not to be unbalanced against a human who starts with 10 points in all his attributes?

Anyone who can help me would really appreciate it!

[Joerg]

First off, humans don't start with 10 points in all attributes - it is 10.5 points in most (which I would round up to 11 rather than down to 10), and 13 in INT and SIZ.

Secondly, not all the racial advantages express themselves in the basic stats. Elves and dwarfs have additional senses (amd associated skills) and longevity as advantages over normal humans.

(Halflings have no advantages, they are just fat pygmies of the English countryside, maybe with some resiliance.)

In the end, having the same sum of stat points does not provide balance between different characters. BRP allows player characters from races with wildly different stats, like trolls or centaurs. Trying to balance these creatures for the same basic stat total is an exercise in futility.

 

If you want to do point buy for other species, look at their average stats as per sample bestiary and assign point buy from those values, possibly some fewer points when other advantages are in play. Points for starting skills may be different from human characters, too.

Edited July 24 by Joerg

[Atgxtg]

First of I'll mention that BRP doesn't try to balance off the races against each other, and it's not really a big concern. Yes, I know that's different from some other RPGs, but it is how the game was designed, and it actually works. 

Secondly, if you want to try and balance off  the races then the best way to do it is probably to use the point buy method and the superpowers rules to get a point cost for the various attributes and racial abilities,  You could have players pay for their abilities out of their initial skill points. Old Superworld had 5% skill worth 1 point so you could pay for the racial advantages that way.

 

But I don't think it would be a good idea to do so. As mentioned before, BRP games don't balance off characters that way. Instead the "cost" for being non-human is more cultural. The character will be an outsider, in a time and place where that makes a big difference. The typical mixed party of elves, dwarves, men, and hobbits all getting along in a cosmopolitan society is something created by certain RPGs and reflects the values of modern Western Civilization. In most settings, especially historical ones, being an outsider was a problem. In most societies people "knew" that folk from a hundred miles away had horns, an odd number of eyes, etc. 

Also the problem with paying for a "racial package" is that the players is paying the the racial average stats, not the actual rolled stats so the costs could be way off. For instance an player could pay 9-12 points for a higher base DEX for an elf character but then roll a low DEX. So I think to be fair you'd probably want to use a point buy method for all of chargen. But if you did that, you would need to worry about races.

 

[Ian Absentia]

Three observations I'll make regarding balance for non-standard characters at creation:

1) We recently had a discussion on this topic in this very forum that reached little in the way of consensus and even less in the way of good will.  Still, I felt it was an interesting exercise in exploring the pros and cons of one of my favorite games.  I'll refrain from linking to the thread myself, but it's still there.

2) I was recently re-reading the Mythras Classic Fantasy Imperative (which had its origin in Classic Fantasy for BRP) and was impressed once again by the "quick-pick" class/race packages of relevant and mostly balanced skills for different character types.  There are also guidelines for die-roll ranges and/or point-buy options for the standard array of fantasy races at character creation.  The ORC SRD is available for free download if that's of interest to you.  Not exactly the same as BRP, but highly compatible.  This was one of the most down-to-basics recommendations from the thread mentioned in Point 1.

3) I've played a lot of Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.  The game provides stat bonuses for different races at creation, but they fall by the wayside very quickly after you begin play and accumulate experience.  Except maybe Khajit and Argonian claws, maybe, and only at first, and only at low difficulty settings.  The point being, you end up playing the character that lets you have the most fun imagining being somebody else, and the skill-dominated experience system (remarkably similar to BRP) will let your players grow into the character that they want to be fairly quickly, regardless of external trappings.

So, yes, it can be done, there's a ready-made resource that you can use as a template, everyone at the table can feel satisfied that they're starting on even footing, then the campaign can go from there.  I hope this helps!

!i!

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

 

3) I've played a lot of Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.  The game provides stat bonuses for different races at creation, but they fall by the wayside very quickly after you begin play and accumulate experience.

I find that to be true in most RPGs. Once characters get experienced (improve their skills,learn spell, buy better gear, etc.) the benefits tend to overshadow  any stat mods for race. With the exception of extreme cases like giants and dragons.  And BRP doesn't have "balanced" experience awards. Those to do more tend to improve faster. So even if a GM  tried to start the characters "balanced" they probably  wouldn't remain so for very long. SOme players will make more improvement rolls than others.

Myhras handles experience checks differently that BRP, and a GM could "balance" the number of experience roll each character gets, but not the results of those rolls. So even then the characters won't stay "balanced" with each other. Not unless the GM deliberately gives extra improvement rolls to those with lower skills so they can catch up. 

But since the players aren't fighting each other, and hit points are fixed, it doesn't matter. 

[Mugen]

On 7/24/2024 at 12:28 PM, Joerg said:

First off, humans don't start with 10 points in all attributes - it is 10.5 points in most (which I would round up to 11 rather than down to 10), and 13 in INT and SIZ.

I think those numbers come from a point-buy option from the BGB (pg 19) and BR:UGE, mentioned in another thread on this forum.

The fact INT and SIZ default at 10 is not the strangest part of this optional rule, as in considers each point of DEX, INT and POW to be worth THREE points of the other stats. I don't know who designed this, but his experience of BRP is very different from mine. 🙂

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

The fact INT and SIZ default at 10 is not the strangest part of this optional rule,

That's probably a holdover from the pre-RQ3 days when INT and SIZ were rolled on 3D6. Most of what is in the BRP rules comes pre-RQ3 sources. 

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

as in considers each point of DEX, INT and POW to be worth THREE points of the other stats.

It's because the point buy method is an extension of the Super-Characteristic power from Superworld (included in the BRP Powers susytem) system, which was an attempt to recreate Champions in BRP.  The idea is that a point of DEX, INT or POW is worth more because you can do more with them, thanks to magic an other powers. Basically it works on the idea that it will take about 9 points of STR to duplicate the effects of a 3 point spell. 

The BGB is mostly pre-1983 game mechanics (apparently Worlds of Wonder)with some stuff from Elric! tossed in, and with creature stats that are watered down compared to their sources. So it's probably not the BRP gaming experience that most people who played a BRP game had. 

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

I don't know who designed this, but his experience of BRP is very different from mine. 🙂

Indeed. 

[Nozbat]

On 7/24/2024 at 8:59 PM, Atgxtg said:

Myhras handles experience checks differently that BRP

I have been using Renaissance Deluxe rules (mostly) and like Mythras, I tend to give 4-5 skill improvements periodically. I'd also allow skill improvements for profession in downtimes so if the players want to increase their professional skills, they can do so then. New skills cost 2 improvement points.

Skill points can be banked to use for future or used immediately, can be used to increase Characteristics, develop new specialised skills. 

Some players are luckier in their rolling and might get an improvement in all the rolls, but even if the roll is a failure the player still gets a 1% increase.

On 7/24/2024 at 6:53 PM, Ian Absentia said:

I was recently re-reading the Mythras Classic Fantasy Imperative (which had its origin in Classic Fantasy for BRP) and was impressed once again by the "quick-pick" class/race packages of relevant and mostly balanced skills for different character types.  There are also guidelines for die-roll ranges and/or point-buy options for the standard array of fantasy races at character creation.  The ORC SRD is available for free download if that's of interest to you.  Not exactly the same as BRP, but highly compatible.  This was one of the most down-to-basics recommendations from the thread mentioned in Point 1.

I'd agree with @Ian Absentia here... Mythras' Classic Fantasy would help in designing different cultures and racial types.. and its free, so why re-invent the wheel

On 7/24/2024 at 6:53 PM, Ian Absentia said:

I'll refrain from linking to the thread myself, but it's still there.

I'd only look at peril of your sanity

4 hours ago, Mugen said:

I think those numbers come from a point-buy option from the BGB (pg 19) and BR:UGE, mentioned in another thread on this forum.

I know there is a rather dynamic thread on this forum but I'm not sure why people get so hung up on it. My advice is to do whatever suits your group. I take a rather relaxed view on how people roll their stats and don't worry or fret about it. There is an initial advantage to high stat characters, but that tends to diminish with play. I think it's important that players are comfortable about their characters and that they have fun in the game. If that includes fudging some low stats, then fun outweighs RAW.

 

On 7/24/2024 at 11:28 AM, Joerg said:

(Halflings have no advantages, they are just fat pygmies of the English countryside, maybe with some resiliance.)

And finally, I'd like to agree with @Joerg.. halflings (and whatever iteration your game has) should be banned. I blame Sauron for this btw. Why he just didn't have an army steamroll the Shire I'll never understand. If he had, we wouldn't be talking about halflings. Sauron obviously did not read the Evil Overlord list

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlordList

 

[Ian Absentia]

8 minutes ago, Nozbat said:

And finally, I'd like to agree with @Joerg.. halflings (and whatever iteration your game has) should be banned.

And then there was Dark Sun.

So...progress.

And apologies for the digression.

!i!

 

[Mugen]

43 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

And then there was Dark Sun.

So...progress.

And apologies for the digression.

!i!

 

IIRC, even in Tolkien, Hobbits were naturally good with bows. Ask Sharkey.

And even if he got some unvolontary help from Sauron, Smeagol proved to have outstanding skills at survival.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I have been using Renaissance Deluxe rules (mostly) and like Mythras, I tend to give 4-5 skill improvements periodically. I'd also allow skill improvements for profession in downtimes so if the players want to increase their professional skills, they can do so then. New skills cost 2 improvement points.

Skill points can be banked to use for future or used immediately, can be used to increase Characteristics, develop new specialised skills. 

Some players are luckier in their rolling and might get an improvement in all the rolls, but even if the roll is a failure the player still gets a 1% increase.

Okay. What does that have to do with balanced characters? Over time the character's proficiency ratings will still tend to diverge, because die rolls and random. A GM can't rely on all the fighters being the same level with roughly the same attack bonus and such.

 

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I'd agree with @Ian Absentia here... Mythras' Classic Fantasy would help in designing different cultures and racial types.. and its free, so why re-invent the wheel

You reinent the wheel if you don't like that type of wheel. All this Myrhas based stuff is great if someone wants to run Mythras. It's somewhat less useful if they want to run something else, such as BRP.

BTW< That's not a dig at Mythras but just stating that somebody might want to do things differently than it does.  

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I'd only look at peril of your sanity

And risk running into the same pitfalls.

Look, races aren't balanced in BRP. That was a design choice that goes back to RuneQuest. I think GMs new to BRP should probably stop and think about that, and the reasons why it's that way before the start to change things. THat's not just for BRP either. I think people should look over and try to understand what the designers hand in mind and how the game was supposed to play before making changes.  

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I know there is a rather dynamic thread on this forum but I'm not sure why people get so hung up on it.

THey don't. The "rather dynamic thread" was a new GM stating that BRP would be better if it used a CR rating to blance encounters and more experienced BRP GMs trying to explain why that really doesn't work with the game system. Mainly that things are far less predicable in BRP than in D&D. Then new to BRP GM told us that we were wrong, and that BRP is unenvolved, etc. But the advice was to try and help a new GM.

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

My advice is to do whatever suits your group. I take a rather relaxed view on how people roll their stats and don't worry or fret about it. There is an initial advantage to high stat characters, but that tends to diminish with play. I think it's important that players are comfortable about their characters and that they have fun in the game. If that includes fudging some low stats, then fun outweighs RAW.

That's good advice. 

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

 

And finally, I'd like to agree with @Joerg.. halflings (and whatever iteration your game has) should be banned. I blame Sauron for this btw. Why he just didn't have an army steamroll the Shire I'll never understand. If he had, we wouldn't be talking about halflings. Sauron obviously did not read the Evil Overlord list

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlordList

 

But they are so tasty. Admittedly the new "half-the-fat" Halfings aren't as good as the originals, but what can you do? Dwarf is too tough, and Dragonnewts hold a grudge.  

Edited July 26 by Atgxtg

[Mugen]

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

THey don't. The "rather dynamic thread" was a new GM stating that BRP would be better if it used a CR rating to blance encounters (...)

 

15 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I know there is a rather dynamic thread on this forum but I'm not sure why people get so hung up on it. 

Just to make things clear : the thread I'm referring to is one from the RuneQuest sub-forum. The OP tweaked the optional rule I mentioned here, but seem to be convinced the influence of DEX and INT is a good reason to keep a higher cost for both.

 

[Nozbat]

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

But they are so tasty. Admittedly the new "half-the-fat" Halfings aren't as good as the originals, but what can you do? Dwarf is too tough, and Dragonnewts hold a grudge. 

This is another good reason halflings should never be sent on adventures. All that deprivation and exercise spoils the fattening up effort. Who wants to eat a scrawny halfling? They’d only be good for making stock for a soup.

Ideally, halflings should be left in their pretend, idealised English shire, quaffing pints of warm beer and stuffing themselves with mushrooms and other delicacies and then culled at about 30. 

[Atgxtg]

8 hours ago, Nozbat said:

This is another good reason halflings should never be sent on adventures. All that deprivation and exercise spoils the fattening up effort. Who wants to eat a scrawny halfling? They’d only be good for making stock for a soup.

Halfing, no. Hobbits yes. Hobbit Fritters, Hobbit Pancakes, Hobbit on a Stick. Cup o' Hobbit, Hobbit Pot Pie, Quarter Hobbit with Cheese. Quite helpful in a pinch, especially if followed off bit a bit of Faerie Cake.  Almost as filling as Waltapus but with only a fraction of the preparation time and casualties. Not that it holds a candle to a good duck dinner, but not everybody games in Glorantha.

8 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Ideally, halflings should be left in their pretend, idealised English shire, quaffing pints of warm beer and stuffing themselves with mushrooms and other delicacies and then culled at about 30. 

33 to be exact. Halfing "Veal" doesn't live up to the repuation. Neither does Kobi Halfing from Land of the Ninja. 

Edited July 27 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, Mugen said:

 

Just to make things clear : the thread I'm referring to is one from the RuneQuest sub-forum.

Oh! My bad. I thought you were referring to the recent threat about balancing encounters. 

6 hours ago, Mugen said:

 

 

The OP tweaked the optional rule I mentioned here, but seem to be convinced the influence of DEX and INT is a good reason to keep a higher cost for both.

 

Well it is a good reason, if you a running with Powers, especially Superpowers. Another 10 POW makes a character far more dominant in spirit combat or for overcoming or  resisting opponent's in POW vs. POW rolls , and doubles the magic points available for superpowers or magical casting. So in those cases it's worth more than another 10 STR.

If the GM is running a setting without such powers then no, it isn't such a good reason anymore. Without any sort of magic/power system in play, POW is almost a dump stat.

One of the pitfalls on BRP is that it give you rules from multiple previous BRP games, but not the context, or much advice on  which game mechanics play well with each other and which do not. If you have experience with previous BRP games, then the BGB is a great toolkit. If not, then it's a bit of a minefield.  It's not exactly as "mix 'n match" as it looks. 

 

A lot of the advice we give on BRP here tends to depend on just what implementation of BRP someone is trying to run. Imagine if someone wanted to run a game with  Summon rules combined with hit locations. It would probably end up more deadly than the equivalent in latter editions of Strombringer and Elric!.

[g33k]

8 hours ago, Nozbat said:

...

Ideally, halflings should be left in their pretend, idealised English shire, quaffing pints of warm beer and stuffing themselves with mushrooms and other delicacies and then culled at about 30. 

You forgot that final "finishing" -- a month or so of deprivation, terror, and misery, before stabbing them with a Morgul blade.

Much tastier that way.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

... Imagine if someone wanted to run a game with  Summon rules combined with hit locations. It would probably end up more deadly than the equivalent in latter editions of Strombringer and Elric!.

Well if you can Summon new Hit Locations, that sounds like you're borrowing heavily from RQ's "Chaos Features" table.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Well if you can Summon new Hit Locations, that sounds like you're borrowing heavily from RQ's "Chaos Features" table.

😂😂😂 Probably the best comment of the day!

BTW, as much as this sounds true, I didn't see a chaotic feature that adds new limbs on any of the tables. There should be though. 

 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

You forgot that final "finishing" -- a month or so of deprivation, terror, and misery, before stabbing them with a Morgul blade.

Much tastier that way.

😂😂😂 

A bit over tenderized for me, but to each his own. Personally, I prefers mine raw.

[Nozbat]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

stabbing them with a Morgul blade.

I think you’d find them rather insubstantial that way?

However, this is also a good example of my earlier post about Evil Overlords..

You have your prey isolated on a mountain top, in a dilapidated fortress, their only guard a bloke who claims to be a long lost king and is armed with a broken sword. After some soul searching, you eventually come up with a cunning plan. Use the Morgul blade!  WTF?

Whatever was wrong with going in swords whirling, killing the small dudes and taking the Ring? Was it some sort of Nazgûl fair play?

[g33k]

53 minutes ago, Nozbat said:

...

Whatever was wrong with going in swords whirling, killing the small dudes and taking the Ring? Was it some sort of Nazgûl fair play?

They tried that back in Bree, remember?

All it got them was some thoroughly murderized feather duvet's (which was, frankly, really embarrassing to report to Sauron)... "but we really ruined their bedlinens, sir!"

[Nozbat]

Oh yes @g33k.. so they did.. and so decided on a strategy to give the hobbits a fighting chance with the Morgul dagger

My players would have made a song or Italian rhyming sonnet about the bed linen that would have become a Barad-dûr anthem to serenade Old One Eye and then shot the hobbits and the upstart Ranger at ten paces using their crossbows on Weathertop without a preamble. And if questioned about their actions they would have said they were only Salt Merchants 

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I think you’d find them rather insubstantial that way?

Less filling but taste great!

5 hours ago, Nozbat said:

However, this is also a good example of my earlier post about Evil Overlords..

Actually it illustrates the problem with Evil Underlings. Basically, any Evil Underling is inherently untrustworthy ('cuz they're evil!) so you don't want to pick one that's too smart or too competent in case they turn on you. But that means you can't count of them for much. 

5 hours ago, Nozbat said:

You have your prey isolated on a mountain top, in a dilapidated fortress, their only guard a bloke who claims to be a long lost king and is armed with a broken sword. After some soul searching, you eventually come up with a cunning plan. Use the Morgul blade!  WTF?

That was option C.

Option B was a rather poor recruiting pitch that included a trip to Mordor with questionable accommodations and no free breakfast or T-Shirt.

5 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Whatever was wrong with going in swords whirling, killing the small dudes and taking the Ring? Was it some sort of Nazgûl fair play?

Actually the cunning plan was to go in blades whirling, it's just that the big bad Nazgul, are afraid of fire.  Something of a letdown in the evil underlins department. Then again one elf lord had five  Nazgul on the run, so maybe these guys were a bit overhyped? I mean the most powerful memember's claim to fame is that he managed to destroy the northern kingdoms after six hunded years.  Yeah, we can cut the guy some slack for being mostly dead the whole time, but still, six hundred years. Not exactly incompetent but really, really slow. I wouldn't ask him to stop off at the store on the way back for a quart of milk.

[Joerg]

May I respectfully request a separate thread for undersized player-viable race cuisine, for halflings, durulz, trollkin and newtlings? Might be well placed in the Tavern.

Edited July 28 by Joerg

[Nozbat]

Yes.. I thought we’d gone off topic badly.. sorry @Vic4fun.. I hope you got some information that you needed from the thread being a new DM .. if not there is a menu in Trollpak for small edible sentient beings which could add to your knowledge of peculiarities of cuisine even if it doesn’t help running games