Starting My First Game

[Anlúan]

I didn’t realise the Vantaros were pro-Lunar! How come?

As for Elmal / Yelmalio, dare I ask why it is a point of contention in the real world?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Anlúan said:

As for Elmal / Yelmalio, dare I ask why it is a point of contention in the real world?

It's getting closer probably to 35 years of debate.

Originally there was just Yelmalio, the Little Sun (aka Lightfore, the most prominent nighttime planet).

Then Greg decided that the Orlanthi called this deity Elmal (or a deity that was both the planet and partially the Sun). He put out an article on the topic entitled "Why I Ruined Your Glorantha".

Elmal was incorporated very heavily into the King of Dragon Pass video game (and was perhaps the most popular deity). Elmal was later carried forward into the HeroQuest line as well as a minor Orlanthi deity.

But subsequently (and particularly as RQG was brought out), this was deemed an incorrect tangent (including by Greg), and was largely pared away for the current release.

So we're largely back to Yelmalio with much debate and angst in between.

[Anlúan]

Thanks for the explanation jajagappa! Does the “Why I Ruined Your Glorantha” article still exist?

And rolling back to Odayla, I was just reading about him in the Lightbringer book. Why isn’t Hwarin Dalthippa one of the associated cults? If it were, what spell would you think she’d grant?

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Anlúan said:

Does the “Why I Ruined Your Glorantha” article still exist?

Yes. I think some of the links to it are dead, but as of this writing, this one works:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/the-birth-of-elmal/

[Godlearner]

On 10/5/2024 at 10:41 AM, soltakss said:

On 10/4/2024 at 2:20 PM, Anlúan said:

Has anyone built new sorcery spells a lot? My Lunar Tarsh Philosopher really wants to lean into learning to craft new Sorcery spells. The core rulebook has some rules, but as I am new the R:RiG system I am concerned with balancing. Any suggestions?

I don't use Sorcery for lots of reasons. 

If your Player wants to build Sorcery spells then use the rules from the Rulebook. Until Malkioni (Western Sorcerers) are fully described, you are probably not going to see many examples of Sorcerers building spells, although @Godlearner might have some ideas. he does all my Sorcery stuff for me, as he claims to understand it.

Message me if you want to talk about it, or have any questions.

[Anlúan]

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Yes. I think some of the links to it are dead, but as of this writing, this one works:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/the-birth-of-elmal/

 

22 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It's getting closer probably to 35 years of debate.

Originally there was just Yelmalio, the Little Sun (aka Lightfore, the most prominent nighttime planet).

Then Greg decided that the Orlanthi called this deity Elmal (or a deity that was both the planet and partially the Sun). He put out an article on the topic entitled "Why I Ruined Your Glorantha".

Elmal was incorporated very heavily into the King of Dragon Pass video game (and was perhaps the most popular deity). Elmal was later carried forward into the HeroQuest line as well as a minor Orlanthi deity.

But subsequently (and particularly as RQG was brought out), this was deemed an incorrect tangent (including by Greg), and was largely pared away for the current release.

So we're largely back to Yelmalio with much debate and angst in between.

 

I must say after reading all this... I... what? I don't get it at all. I think I see why people are in debate about it!

[Anlúan]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Message me if you want to talk about it, or have any questions.

As for this: thank you, I think I will as soon as I start the game in a month or two! I'm sure my Lunar Tarsh Philosopher will want to start crafting right away!

[Anlúan]

And, for today, one last post; two more questions!

1. What's the difference between Engizi and Lorion?
2. If Engizi is the god of just the main river in Dragon Pass, what about all the other rivers? I ask this both in terms of lore (are they all other gods?) and mechanics (do you just use the Engizi cult?)

Edited October 7 by Anlúan

[g33k]

Hello!

On 10/2/2024 at 2:59 PM, Anlúan said:

Recently, I have left 5e ...
So! I'm a new DM to this world ... Instead I'd like to ask:

1. What resources would people point me to?
2. ...
3. ...
4. And most importantly: Oh by Orlanth, how do weapon skills work?

Welcome to the tribe!
🙂
   (this is the "Harmony" rune, broadly (in Glorantha) about community, cooperation, etc)

I think your Q's 1&4 are well answered, above -- the Wiki, the Well, some specific titles (both Chaosium & JC).  And that you're generally trained in a very-specific weapon.
  
I will add a couple of characte-creation resources that I didn't notice mentioned:  the new/beta website, www.runequesting.com; and also www.cradleofheroes.net

 

On 10/2/2024 at 2:59 PM, Anlúan said:

2. What safety tool would be best to have in place? I use the X-card, but does anyone else have suggestions?

No particular "safety tools" as such (or rather, I think Xcard likely sufficient, unless someone at your table has some problem with it, or has a vastly-preferred alternative).  However I think an unusually-deep Session Zero is apt.  Glorantha is a visceral, brutal, Bronze Age world, in both physical and mythical ways.  Slavery (and other "non-free" statuses like serf, thrall, etc), deep-set racial & ideological hatreds, and countless other problem topics abound (and the grognards here remember prior editions with other, even-more-confrontational material, and still adhere to it as "their Glorantha").  Even dog-people vs cat-people has a built-in ethno/politico/religious conflict available, if you want to lean-in on it!
So:  session zero the hell out of it all.
 

On 10/2/2024 at 2:59 PM, Anlúan said:

3. Are there any 'usually slipped up' mechanics that people may want to point out?

"Strike Rank" often confuses.  It's easy to mistake it for a time/movement/action system, but it's strictly an order-of-operations system (i.e. who-goes-1st) with (of necessity) a few rules tacked on time-wise for noncombat movement.

"Hit Locations" make combat brutal.  The "centerline" shots (head, chest, abdomen) can easily 1-shot even a very experienced character, if the lucky foe -- even a "rabble" or "mook" type --rolls a critical.  Consequences of this are that numbers count (a numeric advantage is often telling, and easily becomes crucial); and that ambushes can be deadly:  both these are easy ways to get unanswered attacks, and ratchet-up the chances of getting those few lucky criticals.

Also -- regarding "specials" vs "criticals" -- The "critical" gets both its own "critical" result and also the "special" result.

Magic-items are less common than in most D&D games, particularly expendable healing in potions/etc.  It's a good idea if most of the party has at least some healing spells, and for one or two to have a non-trivial amount of healing as a primary or secondary focus... and for their Statement of Intent to be "go heal anyone who has gone down, or is indicating a critical injury, and if nobody is, then..." as a prequel-clause to whatever they want to do otherwise.

Rune & Spirit magic are the two "main" systems, but note their starting numbers (3 & 5) are differently calculated:

• PCs begin with 3 Rune Spells by default; those can be 3 1-point spells, or 3 3-point spells, or a mix.  There are a few expensive spells that beginning 3-Point-RunePool characters are unable to cas!.
• PCs begin with 5 points of Spirit Magic spell by default; that can be a single 5-point spell, or 5 1-point spells, or any combo of 1pt-4pt spells totaling 5 points (note that many spells, such as Heal, are "variable," meaning that they can be learned at varying levels.

Similarly, they spend & recover very differently:

• Your Rune Pool(s) power Rune Magic; they are small (3 points in 1 pool, for default beginning PCs) and regenerate only via appropriate Worship rolls on Holy Days.  This makes the "big" Cults (like 7Mothers, Orlanth, & especially Ernalda) much more potent Cults than smaller ones like Eurmal & Odayla &c.
• Spirit magic is fueled by your Magic Points, also a "pool" of points, but:  a much-larger one (equal to your POW score); regenerating much more quickly (full MP regen in 1 day; many HR it as 1 per 2hours, + a bit occasionally throughout the day for higher-POW characters).

D&D-style "Play Balance" is not part of the designers' intent.  Neither are routine "fights to the death" -- most sentient foes understand surrender, and ransom, and that too is designers' intent.  Capturing (instead of killing) a defeated foe is usually preferable, and more profitable!  "Surrender, or  die!" isn't just BBEG braggadocio, it's a genuine choice.

Edited October 8 by g33k

[Rob Darvall]

On 10/7/2024 at 9:17 AM, Anlúan said:

I didn’t realise the Vantaros were pro-Lunar! How come?

Harvar Ironfist: Harvar Ironfist is the king of the Vantaros tribe, a Light Captain of Yelmalio, and ruler of the Far Place. He wields the Golden Spear of Alda-Chur, but his real power is due to his Yelmalio spearmen. Cruel, suspicious, and vindictive, Harvar ruthlessly enforces his peace on the Far Place tribes. Harvar seized control of Alda-Chur in 1610, when he crushed the Righteous Wind Rebellion with fire and sword. The Provincial Governor named him as ruler of the Far Place and his despotic rule is strongly supported by the Empire.
The Guide to Glorantha p171

The Righteous Wind Rebellion was the Far Place/Alda-Churi Orlanthi rebelling against Lunar Occupation. "The Provincial Governor" is the Lunar provincial govenor. Of course this depends on the timeline of your game. Tarsh was conquered by the Lunars in 1490. RQG takes 1625 as a base position.

I don't recall Harvar's fate by 1625, but if Alda-Chur is Sartarite again by then the Vantaros are likely viewed as traitors and/or collaborators. Of course there's milage in a new tribal king fighting to restore Vantaros power honour.

Edited October 8 by Rob Darvall

[mfbrandi]

11 hours ago, Anlúan said:

I must say after reading all this … I … what? I don’t get it at all.

Other perspectives are available, but I look at it like this (boneheadedly):

• The elements and their gods are at war with each other — notably Storm vs. Fire/Sky.
• Mortals need all the elements to thrive — Solars need to breathe and Orlanthi need light and fire.
• So the worldbuilders have a choice:
  • Have lickspittle turncoat elemental gods to pad out each pantheon — e.g. Elmal as Orlanth’s toady sun.
  • Have the various factions of Gloranthans just suck up the fact that some essential parts of the world are not controlled, embodied, or represented by their gods — e.g. we recognise the need for the sun, but we do not worship it in any form, and we know that enemy cultists may use its power against us while we cannot reply in kind.

Now the sun’s job is pretty simple — rise in the morning, set in the evening — and doing it once daily, it performs for everyone, so a bespoke Orlanthi sun god should be easy to let go. I believe that the Orlanthi pantheon still has room for the lowfires — each group needs its own hearth, one won’t do for the whole lozenge, and if rubbing sticks together doesn’t work for you, you may be in trouble. (Yeah, I know, maybe firelighting doesn’t require divine favour, anyway, but that is a debate for another day.)

Spoiler

But some people don’t want to let go of their Orlanthi sun. I don’t know why, but being a dreadful cynic (or an anarchist who cannot abide hierarchy), I tend to split them between two bins:

• I identify with the sun, and I grovel before mighty Orlanth — kick me harder!
• I identify with Orlanth, and I outrank the petty sun — see how it fawns upon me!

But they are allowed their kinks, aren’t they? Perhaps Elmal manifests now mainly in Ulerian establishments.

Or something like that. Someone will shoot it all down, and that is all to the good.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Other perspectives are available, but I look at it like this

Good basic summary!  

17 hours ago, Anlúan said:

• What's the difference between Engizi and Lorion?
• If Engizi is the god of just the main river in Dragon Pass, what about all the other rivers? I ask this both in terms of lore (are they all other gods?) and mechanics (do you just use the Engizi cult?)

Something to always keep in mind with Water - when does it really separate into two distinct things? 

Lorion (also called Sky River Titan) is the water that flowed up into the Sky Dome (back when Waters rose and Rivers traveled uphill not down). Lorion turned the sky blue (was gold before) and is the deity of the Celestial River (a notable constellation in the Sky). Lorion often has a draconic or serpentine form.

In the Gods War, Engizi was one of the rivers fighting Chaos. In a battle near Snakepipe Hollow, Engizi leapt up to the sky, but was wounded. Engizi's blood flowed down and drowned the Chaos monster. But the hole in the sky remained, and there's a continuous flow of water at the Skyfall that passes from Lorion into Engizi (and eventually that Water is born back into the Sky, hence an ongoing cycle and connection). 

There's also the separate myth that when the Spike exploded and a great hole was punctured through the entire world, Sky River Titan was the first Water deity to leap down from above and lead the Waters downhill to answer Magasta's call and fill the void at the center of the world. Almost all waters answered the call (and stopped flowing uphill) and now continuously fill Magasta's Pool. (The water cycles all the way down to the Underworld, then flows back up the sides (and back into the Sky.)

Engizi is the name commonly given to the River (the river that originates at Skyfall Lake), and then becomes the Creek-Stream River when the Creek and the Stream join it. It no longer travels by its original bed as that got blocked but follows a canal and joins the Lyksos River in Esrolia and then back into the sea. 

Generally, for Dragon Pass rivers, the cult of Engizi encompasses them. For other rivers, the Zola Fel in Prax has its own myths and cult (see the RQ Classic Pavis book); one of the future Cults of RuneQuest books will include the Oslir River. River cultists from one river are welcomed by those from other rivers, but some Rune and Spirit magics vary.

[Anlúan]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Something to always keep in mind with Water - when does it really separate into two distinct things? 

Thank you so much for this summary. I'm very excited to learn about more Sea, Solar and Darkness Gods as the books release. For my Odaylan Noble NPC (Called "Sondr" as I finally gave him a name), I'm going to give him some allies that the players can meet. Just two, I think. A Chalana Arroy healer and a Lorion-worshipping boatman/messenger/scout? I'm pretty set on the Lorion-worshipper, but the Chalana Arroy character might get swapped out for Asrelia?

I've thought that this Noble, Sondr, will be an interesting NPC contact as the Orlanthi sends him to keep the Lunar Politicians in Alda-Chur in check, as he'd be more acceptable to the Lunars as an Odaylan, but they also want to make sure Sondr doesn't turn the same way as the Sylila (Sylilan? I'm not sure what the adjective form is!) and submit to those nobles. As one of the players is playing a Sartarite Noble that rolled to be present at the crowning of Kallyr Starbrow, would it be reasonable to say they've been asked to make sure that Sondr doesn't convert in such a manner? As if the Sartarites are hedging their bets.

 

9 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Other perspectives are available, but I look at it like this

Thank you for the write-up. That helps a bit. Still confusing, but I guess it's always confusion!

 

13 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

I don't recall Harvar's fate by 1625, but if Alda-Chur is Sartarite again by then the Vantaros are likely viewed as traitors and/or collaborators. Of course there's milage in a new tribal king fighting to restore Vantaros power honour.

Not sure exactly where I'll put them politically. Maybe tomorrow's book will give me ideas and answers!

 

21 hours ago, g33k said:

Welcome to the tribe!
🙂
   (this is the "Harmony" rune, broadly (in Glorantha) about community, cooperation, etc)

...

So:  session zero the hell out of it all.

Hi there! Thank you for joining the thread! And I'll take that into account, for sure!

---

I also picked up King of Dragon Pass and Six Ages on Steam to immerse myself some more. After a little play of KoDP, I've noticed some Gods that aren't in the Prosopaedia? Why's that?

[Jens]

14 minutes ago, Anlúan said:

After a little play of KoDP, I've noticed some Gods that aren't in the Prosopaedia? Why's that?

KoDP is not a Chaosium product- think of it as someone's personal Gloranthan campaign. It was also created during the Hero Wars days when the names and numbers of gods exploded- much of this was streamlined for the current RQ:Glorantha, Elmal being perhaps the biggest/most contentious example.

[radmonger]

Elmal is in the Prosopedia; he just didn't make the short list of cults included in the core rules. 

The others are mostly missing because the Prosopedia is 140 pages long. 

 

 

 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Anlúan said:

doesn't turn the same way as the Sylila (Sylilan? I'm not sure what the adjective form is!)

Sylilan.

3 hours ago, Anlúan said:

A Chalana Arroy healer and a Lorion-worshipping boatman/messenger/scout? I'm pretty set on the Lorion-worshipper, but the Chalana Arroy character might get swapped out for Asrelia?

Chalana Arroy is the ultimate healer cult, but extremely pacifist. 

Asrelia is largely the grandmother's cult - what many Ernaldans retire to. But they are also keepers of treasure, particularly within the Earth temples.

3 hours ago, Anlúan said:

I also picked up King of Dragon Pass and Six Ages on Steam to immerse myself some more.

Also bear in mind that King of Dragon Pass gives a perspective of Sartar as much more rural than actually the case (or perhaps it was then, 300 years ago). But since Sartar united the kingdom, it is much more urban and dominates trade routes between the Lunar Empire and the Holy Country, and has become quite wealthy (Alda-Chur is one of those urban centers along the trade route).

[Anlúan]

The new book is very helpful, especially in fleshing out the Far Place in the R:RiG books! But it doesn't tell me much about who the other 3 Tribes of Alda-Chur are. Where could I learn more about the culture of the Dinacoli, Princeros and Tovtaros Tribes?

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Anlúan said:

the Dinacoli

Dinacoli were the great rivals/villains in the HQG Coming Storm and Eleven Lights books. But out-of-print so you need to look on secondary market for those works.

I don't think Princeros and Tovtaros have been described any further. I'm assuming that all 3 will see some more detail in the future Sartar book. 

 

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Anlúan said:

The new book is very helpful, especially in fleshing out the Far Place in the R:RiG books! But it doesn't tell me much about who the other 3 Tribes of Alda-Chur are. Where could I learn more about the culture of the Dinacoli, Princeros and Tovtaros Tribes?

Have you seen WF #15?  Relevant details are below from a longer article.

The Dinacoli were once the “Wealthy Tribe.” They are
still the wealthiest tribe in Sartar because of their fertile
land and important position on the trade route between
Sartar and Tarsh. They were formed as a border march
of the Kingdom of Tarsh against the Telmori and the
rebellious Quivini tribes. The Dinacoli have traditionally
allied themselves with whatever power controls the
north-south trade road.

The Dinacoli once belonged to the Jonstown
Confederation, and gained a large measure of their
wealth from that association, but they betrayed their
brother tribes when the Lunars invaded. They left the
city ring and joined the Aldachuri Confederation in
1613, when King Petrad swore fealty to Harvar Ironfist.
Allied to Harvar, King Petrad is also known to be very
friendly to the Tarsh king and to Fazzur Wideread.

 

The Princeros are an old tribe famous for their
ancestors’ fights against the giants and the Chaos of
Snakepipe Hollow. Their kings enjoy a long friendship
with the Dwarf of Dwarf Mine. Prior to the Lunar
Conquest, the Princeros had been the leading tribe of
the Alda-Churi.

The Princeros were defeated by Harvar during
the time he was gaining power, and now pay tribute
to him. Their king, Harangvot the Old, is a wily political
survivor, despite his owlish and scholarly demeanor.

 

The Tovtaros used to be called the “Source of Heroes.”
They served as bulwarks against both the Chaos of
Snakepipe Hollow and the Darkness of Dagori Inkarth
and Cliffhome. Close allies of the House of Sartar, the
Tovtaros revere Urox and favor him as a war god.

Harvar covertly encouraged many feuds and then
stepped in to settle them, all at the expense of this
tribe.

[Whizbang]

On 10/6/2024 at 5:42 PM, jajagappa said:

In Orlanthi culture, Odayla is also the Sky Bear (i.e. the constellation of Orlanth's Ring). The Red Goddess riding the Sky Bear is symbolic of her conquest of and acceptance by some of the Orlanthi people.

Odaylans know that the hunter and the hunted are one and the same 
Odayla is the Sky Bear 
The Red Goddess hunted and tamed the Sky Bear 
Therefore, Odayla is the Red Goddess

[Anlúan]

12 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Have you seen WF #15?

What is WF?

[Jens]

2 minutes ago, Anlúan said:

What is WF?

Wyrm's Footprints- https://www.chaosium.com/wyrms-footnotes-15-pdf/

[Anlúan]

Thank you! I'm just going to pick up #15 right now and give it a read!

[jajagappa]

5 minutes ago, Anlúan said:

What is WF?

Wyrms Footnotes was the original Chaosium magazine from the late 70s/very early 80s. Started off mostly covering the White Bear/Red Moon board game, then Nomad Gods board game, and eventually RuneQuest content. That was issues 1-14. Unless you're embarking on an exploration of early Glorantha developments, all the most useful content appears now in works such as Glorantha Sourcebook or Cults of RuneQuest: Mythology.

Wyrms Footnotes #15 came out ~2015 and provided some new content on the Upland Marsh and some other topics such as the various military campaigns of Dragon Pass. Parts are superseded/outdated. The military campaign content can be useful as a GM to know what armies were where between 1600-1625. 

[mfbrandi]

13 hours ago, Whizbang said:

Therefore, Odayla is the Red Goddess

• The Sky Bear has many names. He is identified with Umath, Orlanth, or Odayla by the Orlanthi
  — Prosopaedia: Sky Bear (PDF, p. 113)

So, by that reasoning, Sedenya = Orlanth. Generational collapse: Umath begat Orlanth begat Odayla. The usual centripetal theism. In true Gloranthan style, the battle for the middle air is punching oneself in the face. (Others may say that hunting is chasing shadows.)

Alternatively — whisper it! — not everything we read is true. 😉