Cult of Aldrya and Humans

[svensson]

So I'm reading the Glorantha Bestiary and the Aldryami chapter. I'm thinking of introducing of them in my 'faux Atlantis' game as an interesting racial culture.

But I've got a question about the Aldrya cult and humans in Glorantha.

Aldryami are vegetarians. While the Embli subspecies occasionally eat meat [fish, grubs, an insect], the race as whole is strictly vegetarian in diet. What's more, they object to fires in their forests [go figure]. But nowhere in the Bestiary's Aldrya cult writeup does it mention that Aldryami are religiously obligated towards vegetarianism or opposition to fire [as is the case with Yelmalio, for example]. Neither is there any mention of Aldrya being limited to the Aldryami species.

That opens up the possibility of humans initiating into the High King Elf subcult and possibly the Gardener  priesthood later on.

So this poses several questions:

- Can humans initiate into Aldrya?

- If so, are they required to become vegetarian? It should be noted that the Bestiary specifically mentions that Emblyi do occasionally eat minor bits of meat but that the vast majority of the species are horrified at the practice. Even sea elves don't eat fish.

- Humans are more sensitive to wet and cold weather than Aldryami are. Being wet and cold can be life threatening for them. So are they obligated to forego the use of fire?

One last note: While there is no mention of forgoing iron in the Aldrya cult, iron in all its forms is literally poisonous to Aldryami and the metal is forbidden in their forests. Logically this would put iron off the table for any human cultists.

[metcalph]

51 minutes ago, svensson said:

- Can humans initiate into Aldrya?

Yes.

Initiation into the cult of Aldrya is not a casual event for a
non-elf. A non-elven candidate first must prove themselves to
the Council of Elders. This is done by making a roll of (POW+
CHA)/2×5 on D100. They then must succeed with a skill test
for all the following skills: Cult Lore (Aldrya), Plant Lore,
Bow, Hide, and Move Quietly. The candidate will then be
asked to perform a deed unspeakable to their species. This fact,
and the nature of the deed, is kept secret from non-initiates.
The deed is always criminal in every human sense. Failure in
any part of the lengthy and difficult adoption ceremony means
the death of the candidate.

Once the deed is done, the candidate must sacrifice 1 point
of POW to Aldrya. The elves take the candidate, strip them,
and carry them to a holy tree. With copper stakes, they nail
the candidate to the tree, one spike per limb. With a holy knife,
they first cut out thigh and upper arm bones and replace them
with wooden sticks. Then they gut the candidate and rip out
most of their inner organs. Plants, seeds, and soil are inserted
in the hollow cavities. A hole is drilled into the forehead
through the skull, and a dried root is stuck in the brain.

Genitals are amputated, with seeds planted in their place.
A sacred copper axe is then used to chop a slit in the tree,
which opens and swallows the mutilated corpse. The wood
folds around the mess and the metamorphosis begins. At the
end of some number of days, which varies with the amount of
damage the body sustained, the person will awaken, enclosed
in a nut-like shell. This hangs on the holy tree. After breaking
out of the shell, the new elf is welcomed by the cult.

Cults of Runequest: the Earth Goddesses p34-35

[svensson]

Gotta be honest.... this is a cut-and-paste from the Kyger Litor adoption rite with the serial numbers filed off.

Not sure if I'm a fan of it. This takes one of the really unique things about about trolls and kind of waters it down.

[Erol of Backford]

5 hours ago, svensson said:

Logically this would put iron off the table for any human cultists.

For discussion's sake: If it helps the human cult members kill trolls you'd think the elves would welcome it to be used by elf friends - troll fighters? Also in the scenarios that elves invoke the assistance of humans there are no notes saying "hey you cannot bring that iron sword into the woods even though we know we'll be fighting trolls" or something like that.

Would persons asking for help fighting chaos be told to leave their Storm Bull friend at home? (yes I know its not exactly the same but its somewhat related IMHO) 

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

A sacred copper axe is then used to chop a slit in the tree,
which opens and swallows the mutilated corpse.

Yeah, ahh, no, we'll stick to the RQ3 version. Guessing some humans who are swore long time elf friends who had say children with a Dyad might want to stay human but are very close to the forest?

Can't but help think of Mr. Bombadil... humans may over time transition to look more elvish being in the cult but being nailed to a tree and being nutted just sounds weird.

The whole write up seems like someone decided that becoming an elf needed to be like becoming a troll? That was discussed in another thread.

IIRC there were actual humans not those turned into mulch and born from an acorn, carrying elf bows though I don't recall where I read it. If anyone does I'd like to see it again?

Why would elves nail a human to a tree? Trolls I can see them doing it but this is way out there for anything elvish I have grown to love. I have had many half-elves in my campaigns. Also wasn't Pavis some part elf? Thinking he'd never been nailed to a tree nor hatched from a nut.

Old RQ3 guidelines to be an initiate:

Curious how an elf would become human if they wished to now that the reverse is detailed?

Glorantha is a magical place so anything goes or so it seems...

My GWV for sure here!

(I suppose this is like the Elmal and the Yelmalio discussions... no more Elmal but still fun to talk about it.)

[metcalph]

13 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Yeah, ahh, no, we'll stick to the RQ3 version.

Elder Secrets p48 does say "Failure in any part of the lengthy and difficult adoption ceremony means death of the candidate.  A non-Aldryami is considered to be a true elf once he has joined this subcult".  So the above description isn't unprecedented.

 

13 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Guessing some humans who are swore long time elf friends who had say children with a Dyad might want to stay human but are very close to the forest?

Then they remain Children of the Forest or become a Shaman of Aldrya  If they want a deeper friendship with the Elves but wish to retain their original bollocks and don't want to face the Bad Man then the following cults are acceptable:

• Babeester Gor
• Grain Goddesses
• Eiritha
• Flamal
• Yelmalio
• Chalana Arroy
• Dendara
• Ernalda
• Yelm
• Yelorna

 

[jajagappa]

19 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why would elves nail a human to a tree?

So that they become infused with Plant-ness. You have to remember that elves are really a collective species, each a part of the Forest. Humans are not. If humans are not "absorbed" into the Forest and get reborn into the Forest, they will always be Outsiders (and thus cannot initiate into Aldrya). 

[John Biles]

Swamp Thing from DC comics is probably another way to do it 🙂

 

[svensson]

Here's the thing...

The cult of Kyger Litor and Aldrya were published three times in Greg Stafford's lifetime. NONE of the 'butcher a human for Aldrya' stuff was ever mentioned in RQ 2 or 3.

So I have to kind of wonder if this isn't an RQG retconn or something.

We all agree that RQG is the canon standard and I'll abide by that general agreement, but I really do think the 'Swamp Thing' ritual [props to @John Biles for that one] makes the Uz less unique than they were. Now I admit to being kind of an Uz fan, but I like and enjoy all the races Glorantha specifically because they are distinctly NOT Tolkien-esque fantasy standard races. Each race has unique traits that make them distinctly their own thing. And if the Aldrya thing really is a retconn, well, that feels a lot like Chaosium is borrowing a page out of the Forgotten Realms Retconn Script [tm].

Edited 3 hours ago by svensson

[metcalph]

31 minutes ago, svensson said:

Here's the thing...

The cult of Kyger Litor and Aldrya were published three times in Greg Stafford's lifetime. NONE of the 'butcher a human for Aldrya' stuff was ever mentioned in RQ 2 or 3.

Given the death for failure was mentioned *twice* (once in Gods of Glorantha and the other in Elder Secrets) in material over thirty years old, weeping because you didn't like the current answer is kinda tiresome.  Given you weren't actually asking for a Gloranthan campaign, one wonders why the upset?  As for it being a retcon, the Elder Secrets description doesn't actually scream a magical makeover by a herd of my little ponies.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

Have you looked at the Earth Goddesses book?

[John Biles]

23 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Have you looked at the Earth Goddesses book?

Peter Metcalph cited the official canon from that in the second post.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Given the death for failure was mentioned *twice* (once in Gods of Glorantha and the other in Elder Secrets) in material over thirty years old, weeping because you didn't like the current answer is kinda tiresome.  Given you weren't actually asking for a Gloranthan campaign, one wonders why the upset?  As for it being a retcon, the Elder Secrets description doesn't actually scream a magical makeover by a herd of my little ponies.

 

 

OK, I'm 'weeping' over nothing. I'm simply stating my point of view.

Yes, the Elder Secrets /TrollPak info is 30 years old. Glorantha itself is nigh-over 50 years old, so your point there is entirely moot. Every milieu has certain details that stay the same over the course of the lore and canon. Glorantha is no different. This is simply a change I don't particularly like, one of very very few I don't like in RQG.

The point of my dislike is that every species in Glorantha has something unique about them, things that set them apart from other races. I feel the Kyger Litor cult being the basis for the entirety of Uz culture is one of those unique things. I feel the same way about Aldryami being plants instead of Noldor and Mostali being mechanics [I hesitate to day 'drones'] instead of Sons of Durin.

Chaosium was displeased with Mongoose's Second Age material for the same reasons I don't like the 'Swamp Thing Adoption' ritual... it waters down unique aspects of Glorantha. For example, the Second Age books made dragonewts all too accessible when they were intended to be Glorantha's 'weirdness for weirdness' sake' species. There was a lot of blowback about player character dragonewts at the time. And it was a retcon by Mongoose's writers. Greg Stafford never intended for dragonewts to be PCs.

So exactly where am I so off-base if I feel the same way about one of the details in this current edition. To be completely honest, my emotions about it kinda took me by surprise. I'm not usually one to plant my flag on so trivial a hill. I'm fully aware that Chaosium isn't gonna change it just to make me happy. And it isn't as if I'm gonna stop being a fan of Glorantha because of it.

I guess the simplest way to handle all this is to chalk it up to YGMV and leave it at that.