HQ vs RQ?

[seneschal]

I've got the HeroQuest Heroes Book as a PDF, not sure which version. Call me an unadaptable old fart, but it seems a bit abstract for my tastes after a brief skim-through. If you're going that route, it would almost be easier to skip the skill lists and equipment and all and go with PDQ, Plain-English Role-Playing, or Risus. At least the rules are shorter.

But then I'd hate to be up against a Rancor in Risus. One loss of my Southern-Style Sushi Chef 4 vs. its Monster 6, and it'd be all over. Unless I could pull one off with my Stunt Double 2.

[soltakss]

Because it's fun.

I get that, I just can't see why HQ2 is more fun than HQ1.

[Gollum]

Robin Laws wrote somewhere that HQ1 was not professional. There was several problems, he said, and he corrected them by rewriting everything in HQ2. So HQ2 is like HQ1, but without the problems and more professionally written.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Gollum

[frogspawner]

So, how easy is it in HQ for player-characters to get killed?

(Apart from when the story demands it, as part of some sort of afterlife adventure or heroic sacrifice, I mean).

I don't know the system but my suspicion is, not easy at all.

[seneschal]

Also, it might help those unfamiliar with HeroQuest to see the same character (Luke Skywalker; Magnum P.I.; Bugs Bunny, if you want a truly heroic character) written up in both systems.

[Atgxtg]

After flipping though HQ2, I'd say that in same ways it is like what RQ3 was to RQ2. Basically the same game with updated rules and most of the Glorantha stuff removed. HQ wass orginally supposed to be a "high level" Glorantha game. HW and HQ1 were. HQ2 is a generic RPG that may be used for Glorantha. It certainly cut down on the size of the rulebook and made things a bit less confusion and intimidating.

Most of the differences in the mechanics are minor, and backwards compatible. It's the stylistic differences that are more telling, with the "heroic spiral" campaign path.

[frogspawner]

Has any player-character ever got killed in HeroQuest?

If there's no risk*, there's nothing 'heroic' about it. It's pointless.

(* Real, significant "You can't play your beloved character anymore" risk - not trivial, artificial "Arthur bruised his upper arm" type 'risk').

[seneschal]

Has any player-character ever got killed in HeroQuest?

If there's no risk*, there's nothing 'heroic' about it. It's pointless.

(* Real, significant "You can't play your beloved character anymore" risk - not trivial, artificial "Arthur bruised his upper arm" type 'risk').

Perhaps it is a matter of degree. Very few of my Hero System characters have died, although they could have; the cinematic mechanics make that less likely while allowing my characters to pull crazy action movie stunts. If I tried the same stuff with corresponding Traveller or Call of Cthulhu characters, things would get messy and tragic very quickly. It's why Larry, Moe, and Curly can poke and prod each other but you probably shouldn't emulate their moves on your little brother (especially if Dad's at home).

[frogspawner]

Very few of my Hero System characters have died...

'Hero System' isn't HeroQuest, though. (Or do you mean it as that?)

The risk doesn't have to be great, but it must be there. And (assuming your HS is not HQ) no-one has yet said they've *ever* had an HQ character killed...

[Atgxtg]

Has any player-character ever got killed in HeroQuest?

I expect so, but it would be fairly rare. It's really not a good thing in any RPG to kill off lots of characters. For a character to die, the character would probably be doing something really important, like some sort of HeroQuest (in the Gloranthan use). But getting killed is certainly a possilbity, especially in combat against a merciless foe. There is an example in the HQ2 book based on a slasher-flick style of movie with a heroine dealing with a demented serial killer. The run the contest showing what happens if she wins, and then show you what happens if the killer wins. Basically, if the killer wins, the heroine probably winds up as another victim. But the killer would need to beat the heroine pretty badly in the opposed rolls win to get that result. It would be more common for the heroine to escape, but be wounded and impaired in some way. Of course if the killer is fighting with Deranged Maniac 6W6, and the heroine is resisting with Eye Candy 18 the girl is in big trouble, and it's a foregone conclusion.

If there's no risk*, there's nothing 'heroic' about it. It's pointless.

(* Real, significant "You can't play your beloved character anymore" risk - not trivial, artificial "Arthur bruised his upper arm" type 'risk').

It's not pointless, just something where the players don;t care about the outcome, and generally boring. But losing one's character isn't the only form of risk. The stakes can be anything, as long as the players have a vested interest in the outcome. Things like an item, money, family members, loved ones, keeping various body parts attached where they are, tracking down an escaped prisoner, not getting caught while cheating on your taxes, passing an inspection, earing or keeping the respect of the community, avoiding a speeding ticket, and a host of other things can all pose a real, significant risk, as long as the players care about the outcome.

Any of the big, extended contests in HQ are, by definition, about things that the PCs care about. If they weren't, the GM would just use the quick contest resolution, and move on to the important stuff.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Atgxtg

[seneschal]

'Hero System' isn't HeroQuest, though. (Or do you mean it as that?)

The risk doesn't have to be great, but it must be there. And (assuming your HS is not HQ) no-one has yet said they've *ever* had an HQ character killed...

I was using Hero System as an example of a more cinematic set of rules compared to BRP/RuneQuest. Based on the discussion, Hero Quest is similarly cinematic, encouraging antics that would be unthinkable in RQ.

I'm still ready my head-to-head character sheet comparison, Mr. DeMille.

[BMonroe]

I get that, I just can't see why HQ2 is more fun than HQ1.

Because different people like different things. HQ1 was a fine game for what it did, but many people prefer HQ2, myself included.

So, how easy is it in HQ for player-characters to get killed?

(Apart from when the story demands it, as part of some sort of afterlife adventure or heroic sacrifice, I mean).

I don't know the system but my suspicion is, not easy at all.

It's happened a few times in my own games. Indeed, there are different types of 'death' in HQ. By which I mean it's essentially just as easy to get killed by being murdered, as it is to face 'social death' or 'financial ruin', etc. in which a conflict goes so poorly for you, that your character is stripped of enough abilities as to make him essentially unplayable. And this is a possible outcome of any conflict. It's not just some handwaved 'when the story needs it' sort of thing. For that, there's the 'Pyrrhic Victory' rules, where you sacrifice your PC to make your companions' results extraordinarily better than they should be.

Has any player-character ever got killed in HeroQuest?

If there's no risk*, there's nothing 'heroic' about it. It's pointless.

(* Real, significant "You can't play your beloved character anymore" risk - not trivial, artificial "Arthur bruised his upper arm" type 'risk').

As above, yes.

[frogspawner]

I expect so, but it would be fairly rare. It's really not a good thing in any RPG to kill off lots of characters...

It's not pointless, just something where the players don;t care about the outcome, and generally boring. But losing one's character isn't the only form of risk. The stakes can be anything, as long as the players have a vested interest in the outcome. Things like an item, money, family members <snip>

'Expect' - so you haven't. I'm not saying "kill off lots" - but it needs to be a real risk. Just the odd one. Certainly, the characters have lots to care about - but the players only have the character itself. So character death is - ultimately - the only risk that matters.

I was using Hero System as an example of a more cinematic set of rules compared to BRP/RuneQuest. Based on the discussion, Hero Quest is similarly cinematic, encouraging antics that would be unthinkable in RQ.

OK, thanks. HS is the same style of game as HQ - but it ain't the same game. And I'm not bothered about cinematic antics, just this one issue: Do HQ characters ever die?

It's happened a few times in my own games. Indeed, there are different types of 'death' in HQ... 'social death' or 'financial ruin', etc. ...As above, yes.

Oooo - not exactly unequivocal. Sure those few times weren't just 'social deaths'? I'd have much preferred, for example, "Yes, my long-played character Katlos went to fight this big whack-off multi-headed chaos blob threatening our stead - but lost. End of."

Is there anyone else who's ever had an HQ character killed? Anyone at all...?

[BMonroe]

Oooo - not exactly unequivocal. Sure those few times weren't just 'social deaths'? I'd have much preferred, for example, "Yes, my long-played character Katlos went to fight this big whack-off multi-headed chaos blob threatening our stead - but lost. End of."

Is there anyone else who's ever had an HQ character killed? Anyone at all...?

In various HQ games I've run in I've had:

- One PC who's soul was sucked out by a ghost, and then dropped dead.

- One who was torn to pieces by zombie babies from Purgatory.

- One guy was blasted to pieces by a sonic cannon.

- And a few other I can't recall right now.

If you've never played the game before, please stop telling those of us who have that we don't know what we're talking about.

[frogspawner]

In various HQ games I've run in I've had: ...

Thanks for those examples, just the sort of thing that should happen. But I note they were with you as GM, inflicting them on players.

So... has anyone had their own characters killed in HQ?

If you've never played the game before, please stop telling those of us who have that we don't know what we're talking about.

I have not said any such thing, just asked clarifying questions of those who have played and expressed my concerns. Please apologize.

[Darran]

Thanks for those examples, just the sort of thing that should happen. But I note they were with you as GM, inflicting them on players.

So... has anyone had their own characters killed in HQ?

Quite a few of my characters have been killed in HeroQuest.

Keelhaul Whyduh - Bloodbeard Pirate with his own set of Sea Dogs and knowledgeable on the infamous Pirates Code! was killed by a Red Vadeli.

Sir Kaulth - an Esvulari knight from Durengard was 'melted' by a gorp.

Chu Yu Phat - The Erudite poet was eaten by the Golden Carp during a poetry contest.

Darsimis - a Yelmalian mercenary was attacked and killed by a troop of baboons in Prax.

Manushi Many-Flight - a noble from Teshnos who is visiting Pavis ended up having his own elephant sit on him during a battle with Lunar troops.

[frogspawner]

Quite a few of my characters have been killed in HeroQuest.

Keelhaul Whyduh - Bloodbeard Pirate with his own set of Sea Dogs and knowledgeable on the infamous Pirates Code! was killed by a Red Vadeli.

Sir Kaulth - an Esvulari knight from Durengard was 'melted' by a gorp.

Chu Yu Phat - The Erudite poet was eaten by the Golden Carp during a poetry contest.

Darsimis - a Yelmalian mercenary was attacked and killed by a troop of baboons in Prax.

Manushi Many-Flight - a noble from Teshnos who is visiting Pavis ended up having his own elephant sit on him during a battle with Lunar troops.

Cheers! That's great. RQ would be hard-pressed to match some of those for sheer amusement. "Yawn - not another self-decapitation..."

[Darran]

Cheers! That's great. RQ would be hard-pressed to match some of those for sheer amusement. "Yawn - not another self-decapitation..."

I had a character in RuneQuest that managed to chop off his own head and kill another player character due to a few bad dice rolls, a couple of '00' rolls in a row plus a few bad ones after that.

[Atgxtg]

'Expect' - so you haven't.

No, but not for the reasons you might think. I haven't run HQ. I played a little HW when it came out didn''t care for it, and haven't had the chance to try either of the revised versions.

I'm not saying "kill off lots" - but it needs to be a real risk. Just the odd one. Certainly, the characters have lots to care about - but the players only have the character itself. So character death is - ultimately - the only risk that matters.

Not true. If the only thing the players care about was thie survial of thier characters, they never would go adventuring. They have thier character settle down in a quiet, safe place. Unless the GM is running an old hack 'n slash game, all the other stuff should matter to the players, since it will impact what thier character can do in the future. Having someone's family get killed orr, or losing an arm, or having the character get gang raped, should all be risks that matter tot he player. Just not to the same degree that they would to the character.

To some people losing the character isn;t a risk that matters - some players just shrug it off and grab dice to roll up another one. So -ultimately- the risks that matter are the ones that the players think matter.

OK, thanks. HS is the same style of game as HQ - but it ain't the same game. And I'm not bothered about cinematic antics, just this one issue: Do HQ characters ever die?

No. HQ isn't in the same style as HS. More like the style of Prince Valiant. Do characters ever die? Yes. Do they die often? Probably not. The exact level of lethialty depends on the style of the campaign the GM is running. Superheroes would die less often than say, modern soldiers. But death would be less likely than in a game like BRP. In general, t takes a mix of bad luck and poor judgment to get killed off, in HQ. But then, in HQ you are more likely to fail than in BRP.

Oooo - not exactly unequivocal. Sure those few times weren't just 'social deaths'? I'd have much preferred, for example, "Yes, my long-played character Katlos went to fight this big whack-off multi-headed chaos blob threatening our stead - but lost. End of."

The killed by a Chaos blob thing can indeed happen. In fact, running off after Chaos monsters is about as good a way to get killed in HQ Gloranta as any.

Is there anyone else who's ever had an HQ character killed? Anyone at all...?

Sure. But they might not be hanging around on the BRP forum. You could check out the HQ forums. I think most of us here prefer RQ to HQ. The thing with HQ is that a character really can't die simply due to die rolls. An opponent has to decide to kill the character. So when a character gets defeated, the opponent might have a better use for them (like ransom). But a hungry Walktapi would certainly eat an incapacitated foe.

[seneschal]

Eaten by the Golden Carp during a poetry contest? Boy, those Gloranthans really take their literature seriously, don't they?

[frogspawner]

I had a character in RuneQuest that managed to chop off his own head and kill another player character due to a few bad dice rolls, a couple of '00' rolls in a row plus a few bad ones after that.

Blimey. I thought that Murphy's Rules type stuff was just mathematical, or apocryphal. That's brilliant!

...Though maybe this means you're not representative after all - your Real World Luck stat may be skewing the data.

(You guys do all know the RW runs under T&T rules, right? )

...all the other stuff should matter to the players...

Maybe I've just got Hack'n'Slash players, then... :/

You could check out the HQ forums. I think most of us here prefer RQ to HQ.

Yes indeed. But I think I'll stick here thanks. The OP asked the question here, so we should answer from what we know here, no?

The thing with HQ is that a character really can't die simply due to die rolls.

Well, that's a serious problem.

[soltakss]

It's not pointless, just something where the players don;t care about the outcome, and generally boring. But losing one's character isn't the only form of risk. The stakes can be anything, as long as the players have a vested interest in the outcome. Things like an item, money, family members, loved ones, keeping various body parts attached where they are, tracking down an escaped prisoner, not getting caught while cheating on your taxes, passing an inspection, earing or keeping the respect of the community, avoiding a speeding ticket, and a host of other things can all pose a real, significant risk, as long as the players care about the outcome.

Exactly.

30 years ago, the risky thing for me was staying alive.

Now, risk is different. It is not just about individual player characters, it is more about the community, the clan/tribe/city, religions and the world in general.

In RQ, the focus used to be on saving yourself. In HQ it is about saving the world.

Any of the big, extended contests in HQ are, by definition, about things that the PCs care about. If they weren't, the GM would just use the quick contest resolution, and move on to the important stuff.

To be honest, I don't use Extended Contests. If I need to use something similar then I use Chained Simple Contests from Mythic Russia. Extended Contests just confuse and bore me.

[soltakss]

Blimey. I thought that Murphy's Rules type stuff was just mathematical, or apocryphal. That's brilliant!

...Though maybe this means you're not representative after all - your Real World Luck stat may be skewing the data.

That's not atypical - I have seen several characters behead themselves following a fumble. The use of Hero Points in later versions of RQ help protect against these.

However, the best I have seen was a troll who was exploring a cave system with a party when all of a sudden he was surrounded by a fluttering echo-locating flock of bats. Panicking, he swung his maul, rolled a fumble, rolled a "Roll twice" result, then proceeded to roll "Hit nearest friend doing maximum Damage" and "Hit nearest friend doing critical damage", he rolled chest and abdomen and the GM asked the player to roll randomly for which friends were hit and he rolled the two closest to him, so neatly killed them both.

[dragonewt]

In RQ, the focus used to be on saving yourself. In HQ it is about saving the world.

RQ always had the society, the tribe, the cult, the species, the rune, the god, etc... and saving the world (from many perspectives), as opposed to simplistic selfishness. "I fought, we won". Have a read of Cults of Prax. Those with the archetypical D&D background approached RQ with the expectations developed or amplified by that background, and did not see RQ's depths or subtitles.

And, with all of its rules fixes and changes, RQ3 lost something by gaining something else. Petersen was the Mostali, compared to Stafford's Aldrya Shamanism. Maybe this is one of the drivers behind the move to develop HW/HQ.

It took the world 30 years to grow out of hack and slash D&D'isms in general.

Edited August 18, 2012 by dragonewt

[Atgxtg]

Eaten by the Golden Carp during a poetry contest? Boy, those Gloranthans really take their literature seriously, don't they?

Yes, some do. Did you ever read the Zero story in the RQ Companion? There's a scruffy werewolf who comments that he turns tail and runs right when the Orlanthi goe into thier thier "Foul Spawn of Chaos" speech.

One of the things that make Humakt appealing to me was that I didn't have to learn any damn poetry. Orlanthi can't go on a date without hamming it up with some doggerel about the Earth Mother. I often wondered if the Humakti ability of Sense Assassin was really just learning to listen for the guy who's recitie the "Club Humakt from behind so I can swipe the Sword and kill somebody that I shouldn't" poem.