Gods and Immortals in games

[Rob]

Ok, so first, thanks for all the help on the poisons/venoms question I had for my homebrewed game. I now know how to work it.

But here's another issue, as the title suggests; how to handle them in-game.

I don't intend to come up with a full pantheon or anything as I won't use most of them anyway, but I do have one that would feature, mostly in some subtle way. But here's the tricky part. Though I have some ideas, hhow do you feature an NPC that cannot be killed or harmed in a game without unbalancing it completely? Having him give out a quest/mission seems like a plan, but are there any other ways?

To give you a better idea of what I mean, the character in question is Ankou, the spirit of death, much like the grim reaper of western European mythology. Ankou differs in various ways and that myth is fascinating to me, enough that I want to use him in some capacity.

If it's not obvious by now, I haven't run a game before and could use advice on how not to trip myself up for when I eventually introduce him. It should go without saying that he will not be a villain or enemy in any capacity.

As stated, I do have an idea on using him as a quest giver, maybe to help him as he's been somehow bound, maybe something along those lines. But what (other than making him a villain or ally) should I avoid doing?

[rust]

There is nothing wrong with using deities, immortals or otherwise extremely powerful

beings as villains and antagonists or in any other roles in a fantasy campaign, it is ac-

tually quite common in Sword & Sorcery stories. In my view such beings work best

when kept in the background, without direct interaction with the player characters.

They can influence the events through their worshippers or other helpers, they can

send messages or threats, and so on, but they should only very rarely (if at all) ap-

pear in person, they should only very rarely (if at all) fight the characters personal-

ly, and they should never (really, never) hop into a situation to solve the characters'

problems in a deus ex machina style. Otherwise, as long as they stay remote and

preferably at least somewhat mysterious, they are just fine.

[Rob]

Oh, no worries there, I won't be pulling any kind of deus ex machina at all. I know they can be used in fantasy settings, which is fine, but I'm going for a mix of fantasy and modern day. Background seems like a good idea, especially with his role in that world. And once the players learn of his existence and how to tell if he's nearby (a sudden cold breeze and the creaking of an old cart), I can scare them when I want to be a bastard.

Thanks for the input and opinions man, helps me get a perspective on things ahead of time.

[rogerd]

Oh, no worries there, I won't be pulling any kind of deus ex machina at all. I know they can be used in fantasy settings, which is fine, but I'm going for a mix of fantasy and modern day. Background seems like a good idea, especially with his role in that world. And once the players learn of his existence and how to tell if he's nearby (a sudden cold breeze and the creaking of an old cart), I can scare them when I want to be a bastard.

Thanks for the input and opinions man, helps me get a perspective on things ahead of time.

You should let mythology be your guide here.

For instance in legends of ambrosia and amrita - those that drunk it could never die, but they cannot re-grow anything that is removed from the body, e.g. when Typhon ripped the tendons from Zeus' body; or when the demon Rahu drank amrita, Visnhu threw his discuss severing his head from his body. Though his body died his head continued to live and was said to be the cause of eclipses.

[Rob]

Ther most obvious answer there is and I missed it. Excellent idea on just going with the mythology. I should just do that! I think Occam's razor wins this one.

So, does anyone else use any powerful mythological entities in their games? All I have *for now, at least) is Ankou.

[rogerd]

Ther most obvious answer there is and I missed it. Excellent idea on just going with the mythology. I should just do that! I think Occam's razor wins this one.

There is also the Apples of Idunn and Peaches of Immortality which only grant longevity as long as they are eaten. Chinese mythology also has internal immortals, or Hsien, and there are different types of levels of those. Maybe even naturally occurring immortals too, a la Flint from ST: TOS and Man from Earth.

So, does anyone else use any powerful mythological entities in their games? All I have *for now, at least) is Ankou.

Just working on a backdrop using all of the above actually. Will be set during Atlantis.

In fact I just got a shitload of ideas after purchasing Alpha Omega - it isn't a BRP or D100 product, but it works on the idea that angels and demons are aliens - only in this they are called Seraph and Ophanim have warred for millions of years, rising every 10,000 years to continue their war. In this there are also spiritual beings separate to the above; and it is pretty fucking epic. The core system is waaaay too complicated and thinking about maybe dropping a hack into BRP at some point. But it would require the resurrection of heroic abilities again in order to get the feel of the setting.

[rust]

So, does anyone else use any powerful mythological entities in their games?

Not often, but for example my Black Eyrie Clan campaign in Sartar in Runequest's world

Glorantha has lots of such entities which now and then - well, actually quite often - in-

fluence the events of the campaign as a result of their own ongoing conflicts. Most of

them do so indirectly through their cults' priestesses and priests, but occasionally one

of them uses her or his powers to take a more direct approach. Overall they stay in the

background, and it is difficult for the player characters to distinguish between strange

natural phenomena or purely incidental events and their handywork, especially since all

unusual events are attributed to the actions of mythological entities anyways- an earth-

quake which destroys a town is never "just an earthquake", it is always seen as some

kind of divine wrath or other powerful magic.

[frogspawner]

Can't help thinking it'd be better to leave the god out of it. Are there no priesthoods in your setting? A god directly dealing with piffling PC adventurers doesn't seem right. (Or the PCs starting as significant leaders/heroes would be odd, too). But if you must, how about an avatar? That could be killed if the PCs took a dislike to it (as they will) - and yet the god can manifest again later in another one...

[Rob]

Nice! Rogerd, it sounds like you'll be busy trying to take those over into BRP, but go for it. If you need heroic abilities to get that feel, throw some in. I'm sure you have plenty to pick from. I'm using magic in my game when it gets going, but BRP's list is very limited, but I have points of reference to base other ideas on. For you, it shouldn't be much work at all.

Rust, That sounds about right. I mean, back in those days, isn't that what people believed? If something bad happened, "Shit, the gods are pissed off again". Sounds like it adds a bit of authenticity (if I can say that about a fantasy game) to the proceedings. Good stuff.

[rogerd]

Can't help thinking it'd be better to leave the god out of it. Are there no priesthoods in your setting? A god directly dealing with piffling PC adventurers doesn't seem right. (Or the PCs starting as significant leaders/heroes would be odd, too). But if you must, how about an avatar? That could be killed if the PCs took a dislike to it (as they will) - and yet the god can manifest again later in another one...

It's not like any of the gods in that setting are all that powerful, are they?

I mean don't we have a god statted up in one of the Glorantha supplements, they're pretty bloody wimpy!

Nice! Rogerd, it sounds like you'll be busy trying to take those over into BRP, but go for it. If you need heroic abilities to get that feel, throw some in. I'm sure you have plenty to pick from.

Yeah, I'm kinda looking at MRQ II for those to be honest, and then adding some of the techniques from Celestial Empire at say 5 CPP - does that sound about right?

I'm using magic in my game when it gets going, but BRP's list is very limited, but I have points of reference to base other ideas on. For you, it shouldn't be much work at all.

Don't bet on it. lol

I'm re-hauling the magic system as the Alpha Omega works on areas of magic, and then intention, and I've always felt BRP / RQ magic needed to be more bespoke and easier to create spells for. In other words more of a toolbox approach that is seen in most RPG's nowadays.

Rust, That sounds about right. I mean, back in those days, isn't that what people believed? If something bad happened, "Shit, the gods are pissed off again". Sounds like it adds a bit of authenticity (if I can say that about a fantasy game) to the proceedings. Good stuff.

Thing is immortals do need to operate behind closed doors, or through agents otherwise people will tend to either want their help, all of the time, or just find creative ways to kill them, or if all else fails provide a faux death, kind of like what Connor did to Angel in the series - lock him in a box and sink it in the ocean. When they do operate in the open hide their abilities or the fact that they heal....reaaal fast.

Edited February 14, 2013 by rogerd

[Rob]

Frogspawner, didn't see your post there, it must have gone up as I was typing. I'm not sure, I could work that in pretty easily, but he's not so much a god as a harvester of souls, like the grim reaper. He had no cults (as far as I'm aware, that is), but was always depicted as very powerful, being the embodiment of death.

Now that I think about it though, I can see him being given due respect, so maybe a cult would be an easy fit, workable without being forced in. Maybe in each realm or domain could have a place set aside where people could show reverence or something like that.

[rust]

I mean, back in those days, isn't that what people believed? If something bad happened, "Shit, the gods are pissed off again".

I think so. As I see it, mythologies are at their core mostly attempts to create an explanation

for otherwise difficult to explain events by inventing a system of mythological entities and their

powers and motives which create a more or less plausible "pattern of events" to fit the events

into. The main difference between the real world mythologies and fantasy mythologies is probab-

ly that in a fantasy world the mythological entities really exist and the "pattern of events" crea-

ted by their actions is therefore a lot more consistent and plausible - the events happen far mo-

re often at the right time and place and hit far more often the most plausible targets, there is

much less randomness.

[rogerd]

I think so. As I see it, mythologies are at their core mostly attempts to create an explanation

for otherwise difficult to explain events by inventing a system of mythological entities and their

powers and motives which create a more or less plausible "pattern of events" to fit the events

into. The main difference between the real world mythologies and fantasy mythologies is probab-

ly that in a fantasy world the mythological entities really exist and the "pattern of events" crea-

ted by their actions is therefore a lot more consistent and plausible - the events happen far mo-

re often at the right time and place and hit far more often the most plausible targets, there is

much less randomness.

It was space alien I tell you, it was! lol

[Rob]

Makes sense to me. I can't answer your question on Celestial Empires, I've never tried it. All I've played are D&D (including Dark Sun), Cthulhu, Traveller and Bushido. I don't recommend Bushido, it's awful. Any pen and paper RPG that restricts the player in how they should behave in character is not one you can enjoy. For me anyway.

Going back to your question, what does CPP stand for? Something to do with character points?

[rogerd]

Makes sense to me. I can't answer your question on Celestial Empires, I've never tried it. All I've played are D&D (including Dark Sun), Cthulhu, Traveller and Bushido. I don't recommend Bushido, it's awful. Any pen and paper RPG that restricts the player in how they should behave in character is not one you can enjoy. For me anyway.

Going back to your question, what does CPP stand for? Something to do with character points?

*Looks around sheepishly*

It is official I cannot type....for toffee.

Sorry should be CPC, Character Point Cost

[seneschal]

But that was kinda the point of Bushido. Your character advances or regresses by gaining or losing Face, Honor, whatever you call it. Follow the Code and you advance in society (and in experience points). Break it or defy it and you actually lose experience points, assuming you don't suffer a quick death to cleanse with your blood the shame you've brought upon your family and extended clan. It is restrictive. But that's the culture. Freedom of choice is a Judeo-Christian Western concept. It doesn't exist in many Eastern or Mideastern cultures, especially not in historical ones. You exist to benefit the Group (family, tribe, nation, whatever); rugged individualism isn't admired or encouraged. In those cultures, the squeaky wheel doesn't get the grease; instead, the nail that sticks out gets hammered down, hard. I thought the game's mechanics, enforcing the culture, was clever. Forget collecting gold pieces, guard your reputation!

[frogspawner]

It's not like any of the gods in that setting are all that powerful, are they? ...Glorantha...

Oh, it's Glorantha? Didn't realize. (BTW, to me 'CPC' can only be 'Crispy Prawn Crackers'... )

Frogspawner, didn't see your post...

Thanks, but no worries. I didn't see Rust's post till after, either - his "the gods speak through omens" idea is spot-on, better than avatars (esp. for for low-level stuff). And once you've got interpreters of omens - they are the priests...

[rogerd]

Oh, it's Glorantha? Didn't realize. (BTW, to me 'CPC' can only be 'Crispy Prawn Crackers'... )

Bastard now you've made me hungry and well look what i haz in the cupboards.

Mmmmmmmmmm...........Homer moment lol

[Rob]

But that was kinda the point of Bushido. Your character advances or regresses by gaining or losing Face, Honor, whatever you call it. Follow the Code and you advance in society (and in experience points). Break it or defy it and you actually lose experience points, assuming you don't suffer a quick death to cleanse with your blood the shame you've brought upon your family and extended clan. It is restrictive. But that's the culture. Freedom of choice is a Judeo-Christian Western concept. It doesn't exist in many Eastern or Mideastern cultures, especially not in historical ones. You exist to benefit the Group (family, tribe, nation, whatever); rugged individualism isn't admired or encouraged. In those cultures, the squeaky wheel doesn't get the grease; instead, the nail that sticks out gets hammered down, hard. I thought the game's mechanics, enforcing the culture, was clever. Forget collecting gold pieces, guard your reputation!

I get where you're coming from and I do understand all that, but to me, when you game, it's a chance to let your imagination cut loose, to do the things you'd nevre do in realf life (killing, being the obvious example, or willingly climbing a wall to break into a psychopath's home) and to have fun. The mechanice work well, no doubt, but the way I see it, I roll up the character, but strictly speaking, it's not really my character, it doesn't feel that way to me. I'm all for personal honour, something I take seriously in real life, but historical accuracy should only go so far before it becomes just a re-enactment. To me, it's a very oppressive rules system that instead of rewarding a gamer's imagination and risk-taking, rewards the player's knowledge of feudal Japan, meaning any new player is screwed unless they know a lot about the subject or just spend the time doing what a superior tells them to. What I'm saying is there should be more leeway as it's a game. I get the idea behind it and I get the attraction, but I just feel like there's a better way to do it. I'm not sure what that is, but it'll be out there.

As for freedom of choice, I disagree on it being a Judeo-christian ideal because from what I remember of the bible, people got punished for an awful lot. Freedom of choice existed long before religion. Doing things for family, clan etc is fine, but there are more fun ways to do that in other systems I have played before and the beauty of it is that it comes down to how you play your character within the code that the player can set themselves and that comes with its own rewards. For me (and feel free to disagree), Bushido is more about doing what the game tells you to, rather than the trial and error approach that makes it fun in the first place.

[Atgxtg]

Sorry but by that thinking it's NEVER really your character.

All PCs are defined and restricted somewhat by the setting and culture they live in. At least in any decent campaign. Yeah, there are the power romps where the GM sits back and lets the players get away with whatever they want with no consequence, but that's not really role-playing is it?

As far a freedom of choice goes, in all cultures you have freedom of choice. It's just they you might have to pay for choosing wrong. Freedom of choice does not mean that you actions don't have consequences.

I disagree that " Bushido is more about doing what the game tells you to, rather than the trial and error approach that makes it fun in the first place." I think that your problem here is that you probably have a better grasp on what is expected of you in a typical FRPG setting than in what is expected of your in a setting based on Feudal Japan. Note that I say typical FRPG, not Feudal Europe. A setting based on Feudal Europe would probably be even more restricted than a Japanese one.

You really don't have as much freedom to "set your own code" in most RPGs as you state. It's jsut that the codes of behavior that you have been setting for your characters in most games are probably more in tune with the acceptable code of behavior for the setting you are gaming in.

[rust]

Unless the setting is based upon a rather unusually chaotic situation where

a society broke down almost completely (e.g. a post-apocalyptic setting),

the setting's internal logic and consistency will enforce consequences of

the player characters' actions whenever these actions collide with the ru-

les and laws of the setting's society. Many published settings are rather

generous concerning these rules and laws and how they are enforced by

their societies, they tolerate player character actions which every remo-

tely plausible society would punish very harshly, allowing player charac-

ters to get away with acting like antisocial criminal outlaws. Some other

settings, including those of Bushido and Pendragon, aim for more verisimi-

litude and attempt to simulate the rules, laws and reactions of a plausible

society, often using a specific historical culture as their model. While such

a setting may feel more restrictive for the players, because it limits their

characters' options, it has the advantage that it "feels" a lot more real

and supports the long term identification with their characters as mem-

bers of the setting's society.

[Rob]

Point taken, but I never stated that you should be able to act without consequence. If anything, the consequences in FRPGs can make it worth oing for in a way. But with Bushido, the consequence is always death. You get executed. Yes, I have a better grasp on FRPGs and yes, there are restrictions on all settings, but there is enough room to move in most games that it's more than workable.

Take Cthulhu, for example. The restrictions are the laws we have today, right? So, when my character decided to knock out two policemen and lock them in a police box, my GM told me I'd have to come up with a new character as that one (who fled the country) wouldn't be able to get much else done. I accepted that without any problem because I agreed, but it was still worth it, because I got to do something I wanted to do, not what would have been expected of me by a rule book.

The main point, really, is that mad, bad or big decisions make the best memories in gaming, as do mistakes. They're funny, disastrous, epic or insanely lucky and so, stick in your mind. I have only played Bushido once, but it made enough of a bad impression on me that, given a choice, I'd choose to skip it, despite the fact that feudal Japan IS an interesting time period.

[seneschal]

Take Cthulhu, for example. The restrictions are the laws we have today, right? So, when my character decided to knock out two policemen and lock them in a police box, my GM told me I'd have to come up with a new character as that one (who fled the country) wouldn't be able to get much else done. I accepted that without any problem because I agreed, but it was still worth it, because I got to do something I wanted to do, not what would have been expected of me by a rule book.

"Fled the country." Heh, heh. That's what everyone assumed, based on the statements of the bruised policemen, who groggily woke up on the sidewalk with no police box in sight. In reality, your character actually didn't even leave the city, well, not exactly. Upon throwing open the police box door, he was confronted by a strange little man in a looong scarf who whisked him 2,000-something years into the past (into a parallel Cthulhu Invictus campaign) to confront the evil that created the situation your former companions (and your new character) were dealing with in the present day. Did your original character survive? Only the strange little man -- and an ornery squad of Silurians -- knows for sure ...

[Atgxtg]

Point taken, but I never stated that you should be able to act without consequence. If anything, the consequences in FRPGs can make it worth oing for in a way. But with Bushido, the consequence is always death. You get executed. Yes, I have a better grasp on FRPGs and yes, there are restrictions on all settings, but there is enough room to move in most games that it's more than workable.

Well first off the consequence are't alwats death in Bushido. At least they shouldn't be. Although the nature of the transgression and the precise circumstances make a big difference here. That's why there is the honor and clan rankings. A loose of face, and stus are consequence and can be severe ones. Sometimes though, some players (and even some Gms) don't seem to realize that.

I once ran an L5R campaign where a guy decided to be haunted by an ancestor who had felt that said PC was letting the family down. According to the setting, that would be a big flaw to deal with and the PC should have been trying to appease his ancestors. But the player in question didn't even bother to try and just considered it "free character points." and pretty much ignored the ancestor.

Take Cthulhu, for example. The restrictions are the laws we have today, right? So, when my character decided to knock out two policemen and lock them in a police box, my GM told me I'd have to come up with a new character as that one (who fled the country) wouldn't be able to get much else done. I accepted that without any problem because I agreed, but it was still worth it, because I got to do something I wanted to do, not what would have been expected of me by a rule book.

The same thing applies to Bushido, and even to actual feudal Japan. One of the ways that peasant farmers used to deal with opression was to stand up and defy the rulers. Typically the leaders of such an uprising would get executed, but often the local ruler would take notice of the situation and change his actions accordingly. Now in game terms, it's still "write up a new character" .

The main point, really, is that mad, bad or big decisions make the best memories in gaming, as do mistakes. They're funny, disastrous, epic or insanely lucky and so, stick in your mind. I have only played Bushido once, but it made enough of a bad impression on me that, given a choice, I'd choose to skip it, despite the fact that feudal Japan IS an interesting time period.

They might make the best memories but they don't necessarily make the best adventures and campaigns. Often they are game enders. I've run a Busido campaign, but have since gone on to different RPGs which I think have better game mechanics.

But really, as far as the whole freedom of choice and consequences go, it really just a reflection of the setting. An ultra-conservative caste base culture isn't often very tolerant of those who thumb thier noses at the morals of society. In feudal Japan Samurai had the right of Kiritusgomen, which is usually translated as the right to kill a commoner for any reason and go away unimpeded by the law. In fact the Samurai could kill a commoner for no reason at all. That's the culture. It's very different from western culture.

[Rob]

True, but with that group, yeah... consequences were death. Honour is important, no question, but in Bushido, are you oing something to increase your standing? Or for fear of execution? Both are a huge part of the game, but the latter is so prominent that it removes the element of fun. What didn't help was that our party was led by the domain lord, which meant he'd have you killed for almost anything. There was also a lot of favouritism in that group, though it was never explicitly stated. It's possible that had its part to play, but I have to say that there is a MASSIVE difference on feeling restricted in-character and feeling restricted as a player. For me, Bushido is the latter.

I just can't see myself giving the game another chance as there was nothing enjoyable about it. I did things as they should have been done, but that night would have been better spent picking hot needles out of my arse. At least I'd have gotten something out of it (relief ).

Seneschal, who knows if he survived. He likely sapped everything in sight until he either won or died horribly. Since it's Cthulhu, I think we know the answer to that one, heheh!