Gods and Immortals in games

[USAFguy]

While diverting from the Bushido part of the thread, I always liked the way the gods were introduced in DragonLance...it's been decades since I read it, but the LG god (and helper?) appeared to the party as an old man and woman in wagon, fleeing some calamity. The party had a choice to act to help them, or not, and they were set on a way of adventure AND demonstrated their compassion to the world. Sometimes less is more (not usually, but sometimes).

[fmitchell]

I'mma let you finish, but I wrote up system-agnostic notes on gods and immortals a few years ago:

http://www.frank-mitchell.com/games/rpg-gods.html

http://www.frank-mitchell.com/games/rpg-immortals.html

Hardly the last word, but maybe they'll spark some ideas.

[seneschal]

While diverting from the Bushido part of the thread, I always liked the way the gods were introduced in DragonLance...it's been decades since I read it, but the LG god (and helper?) appeared to the party as an old man and woman in wagon, fleeing some calamity. The party had a choice to act to help them, or not, and they were set on a way of adventure AND demonstrated their compassion to the world. Sometimes less is more (not usually, but sometimes).

That's a trope I've seen before in folklore. The god/angel/fairy godmother shows up in the guise of a human needing or requesting assistance of some kind. If the protagonists show kindness and compassion toward some nobody who apparently can't return the favor, they'll have demonstrated their character and receive supernatural assistance of some kind, often in the form of knowledge essential to completing whatever task or mission they're in the middle of. If they brush off the tattered old man or thin, dirty child by the side of the road because they're in a hurry and have things to do, they won't get the supernatural help and may have some additional obstacles thrown their way, too.

[Atgxtg]

True, but with that group, yeah... consequences were death. Honour is important, no question, but in Bushido, are you oing something to increase your standing? Or for fear of execution? Both are a huge part of the game,

No. They seem to have been a big part of your group's playing style-not of the game. I just don't think your group grasped the culture. You seem to want to stress the individual and fedula Japanese culture stresses the group.

but the latter is so prominent that it removes the element of fun. What didn't help was that our party was led by the domain lord, which meant he'd have you killed for almost anything. There was also a lot of favouritism in that group, though it was never explicitly stated. It's possible that had its part to play, but I have to say that there is a MASSIVE difference on feeling restricted in-character and feeling restricted as a player. For me, Bushido is the latter.

THat's not a game system problem, more likey a Game Master problem. If you look at any historical RPG setting, you will find it just as restricting. In some ways Feudal japangave people more freedom that fedual Europe. At least a common was allowed to carry a sword (until the great sword hunt).

I just can't see myself giving the game another chance as there was nothing enjoyable about it. I did things as they should have been done, but that night would have been better spent picking hot needles out of my arse. At least I'd have gotten something out of it (relief ).

Excuse me., but how do you know that you "did things as they should have been done?".

I've seen a LOT of D&D players crash & burn spectacularly in RPGS like Runequest because they bring along ideas of "how things should be done" that are ludicrous outside of D&D. Players were convinced that melee fighters should charge archers (it works in AD&D), and that fighters shouldn't cast magic spells, and such was "they way it should be done". Such players got slaughtered timne and time again in RuneQuest (and a host of ther RPGs) where the "way things were done (in AD&D)" didn't hold up. I saw a group die horrifically in Morrow Project, charging a .50 caliber machine gun based on the "logic" that "they can't get all of us". And those plays walked away from the table convinced that they "had done things as they should have been done."

But in my experience, if a PC gets killed somebody probably didn't "dio things as they should have been done". Usually it's the fault of the it's the player whose character got killed. sometimes it's the fault of another player, sometimes the fault of the GM, and occasionally the luck fo the dice. Very rarely is it the fault of the system. IMO CoC is one of the few RPGs where you can blame the system, but then I'm not fond of CoC.

[Atgxtg]

That's a trope I've seen before in folklore. The god/angel/fairy godmother shows up in the guise of a human needing or requesting assistance of some kind. If the protagonists show kindness and compassion toward some nobody who apparently can't return the favor, they'll have demonstrated their character and receive supernatural assistance of some kind, often in the form of knowledge essential to completing whatever task or mission they're in the middle of. If they brush off the tattered old man or thin, dirty child by the side of the road because they're in a hurry and have things to do, they won't get the supernatural help and may have some additional obstacles thrown their way, too.

Yeah, and what sucks about it is that many GMs who do it, also tend to have thrown in a dozen similar situations in the campaign where the PCs got stabbed in the back when they did show kindness and compassion, so the group no longer does so.

[seneschal]

Yeah, that's a GM problem. Players and their characters shouldn't get punished for trying to do the right thing. Even crooked politicians and gangsters do the occasional good deed, if only to keep their constituents on their side.

[Rob]

Wow. Ok, so I thought this was going to stay a debate, but it seems, ATGXTG that you're getting a bit defensive (repeated quotations are a sign of sarcasm). What gives? Is it just the way I'm reading it or were you actually pissed off at me in that post?

I could agree on some of those points, but my group DID grasp the culture (a hell of a lot better than me). You also seem to have the impression that I died in the game. I didn't. The dice weren't on my side, but I did alright. I never charge headlong at ranged attackers unless I'm playing a character that is reckless, but I rarely play any that far gone. As for charging a .50 cal... unbelievable. They might as well have jumped into a large meat grinder.

So, fair enough, the point is that my first game of Bushido was so tainted by a "this or nothing" approach, but can you blame me for thinking it's the game? Before playing that one night, I'd never heard of it before and I was the least experienced gamer there by more than a decade. So, in all fairness, I'd NEVER have figured the problem was the group and/or GM. There was no way to tell. Of course, in hindsight, I can see it a bit better now. You don't even want to see their D&D system, I shit you not. Even one of their group criticised it as broken, but it was more for the fun, not the technical aspect on the night. My point is that I have developed my own play style (though it's not all chaotic "do it my way" stuff, I do have sensible characters too) and when something else is introduced to me for the first time, my instinct could only tell me I was playing wrong or it was the game. And since I survived without pissing off my higher ups, it couldn't be me either as I served my role as lackey.

Maybe that's it. I hate people who order others about IRL, maybe I just couldn't switch it off. But with a group that has its favourites, maybe there's more to it than just one thing. As the least experienced, I was also least confident.

Let's find out. You're obviously a big fan of Bushido, so give me an example of how any given situation would go from a player standpoint. For example, if your group has someone playing domain lord and you accidentally **** something up in front of a guest, what would happen? Take it from there and then we'll know what element it really was. You mentioned a GM problem, but I can't really tell. I probably won't play it again either way, but if the issue is identified, I can avoid making the same mistake in other games.

Finally, I know it seems like I'm bitching a lot about my former group, but I do have a lot of fun memories with them, great times. I'm going to start a new thread on a related note, see if we can come down a bit from the seriousness this one got into.

[rust]

Let's find out. You're obviously a big fan of Bushido, so give me an example of how any given situation would go from a player standpoint. For example, if your group has someone playing domain lord and you accidentally **** something up in front of a guest, what would happen?

In one of my campaigns it would depend on what exactly happened,

but as the domain lord's player I would consider that a samurai is a

very valuable and difficult to replace asset, and that having my war-

riors killed is detrimental to my ability to wage war. Unless the cus-

toms or laws would make the death of the samurai in question inevi-

table, I would look for another way to calm down the guest.

[Rob]

Good point. Also, for whenever ATG sees this, I just realised how that post comes across. I really shouldn't post when I'm tired.

[rust]

To add a famous historical example for Japanese lords' ability to bend the

seemingly inflexible rules of their culture, Tokugawa Ieyasu's son Hidetada

****** up really big before the Battle of Sekigahara, he managed to get

his army of 16,000 men bogged down in a meaningless siege of an irrelevant

castle and therefore arrived too late for the battle despite his father's or-

ders, thereby almost causing the defeat of his father's army. Although his

father was quite angry at him, he did not order him to commit suicide, and

later made him his successor.

[Rob]

Very lucky! I've heard of Tokugawa, admittedly because of Civilisation. I read a while ago that the samurai weren't quite how we imagine them, that they are loyal to their lord, but only for as long as he can pay them. Before thaqt, I had no idea.

[rust]

There tends to be a significant difference between a culture's virtues and

its reality. In high medieval Europe the knights were expected to be chival-

rous, but the majority were just arrogant brutes. In Japan loyalty was the

warrior's primary virtue, but treason was quite common - one only has to

take a look at the Battle of Sekigahara mentioned above and count the ma-

ny forces which were bribed to stay out of the fight or even switched si-

des during the battle to see that loyalty was not really at the top of the

combattants' list of priorities.

[seneschal]

That happened a lot in 17th Century European wars, too, where mercenaries were often a component of a king's army. It wasn't uncommon for a skillful and well-bankrolled diplomat to get an opponent's mercenary soldiers to switch sides. Occurred with non-mercenaries, too. During the English Civil War, an enlisted man's wages were so poor and so rarely paid that troops regularly switched sides depending on who -- the King or Parlement -- was actually dishing out meals and issuing paychecks this week.

[soltakss]

Wow. Ok, so I thought this was going to stay a debate, but it seems, ATGXTG that you're getting a bit defensive

That wasn't being defensive, but your post was ...

(repeated quotations are a sign of sarcasm)

Repeated quotes are not a sign of sarcasm.

What they are is an attempt to answer individual points without losing the answer in lots of text. It is easier to quote a section of a post and respond to it.

Finally, I know it seems like I'm bitching a lot about my former group, but I do have a lot of fun memories with them, great times. I'm going to start a new thread on a related note, see if we can come down a bit from the seriousness this one got into.

The original post was about using deities in a game, but that seems to have been a mask for a particularly bad gaming experience.

I've never played Bushido, but I have played in games where honour is paramount and it does change the way you play the game. Sure, you have a choice of whether to do something dishonourable, but that could severely affect your PC.

Regarding deities in a game, having Odin pop up mysteriously and offer advice in a game is OK. Having Ares and Athena rock up in a battle and start cracking heads in a game is OK. Having the Black Assassin God appear behind your PC, kill him in one undefendable strike and disappear is not OK.

[Rob]

Like I said, I really shouldn't post when tired. insomnia is a bitch, so I'm sorry if that post was a bit off.

It wasn't really a mask, it just kind of veered off point for a while. I am going to feature Ankou in my game, but not heavily. Allusions, some signs to scare the players here and there, sporadic appearances, that kind of thing. But no, I don't intend to have him kill off PCs. Nor will he be a deus ex machina, come to think of it. Just want to strike a good balance so I don't **** things up by mistake.

[Atgxtg]

Wow. Ok, so I thought this was going to stay a debate, but it seems, ATGXTG that you're getting a bit defensive (repeated quotations are a sign of sarcasm). What gives? Is it just the way I'm reading it or were you actually pissed off at me in that post?

It's just the way you're reading it. This is still a debate.

I have a history of using multiple quotes to respond to multiple points. While I have been know to be sarcastic, I was not, nor am I trying now to be sarcastic in this thread.

I could agree on some of those points, but my group DID grasp the culture (a hell of a lot better than me). You also seem to have the impression that I died in the game. I didn't. The dice weren't on my side, but I did alright. I never charge headlong at ranged attackers unless I'm playing a character that is reckless, but I rarely play any that far gone. As for charging a .50 cal... unbelievable. They might as well have jumped into a large meat grinder.

Your statement that all penalties lead to death suggests that your character did indeed die.

I've seen a lot of players do reckless things, some of which go beyond charging a /50 cal. One guy actually tripped the same death trap twice, after being raised from the dead and told by his deity not to do so!

So, fair enough, the point is that my first game of Bushido was so tainted by a "this or nothing" approach, but can you blame me for thinking it's the game? Before playing that one night, I'd never heard of it before and I was the least experienced gamer there by more than a decade. So, in all fairness, I'd NEVER have figured the problem was the group and/or GM. There was no way to tell. Of course, in hindsight, I can see it a bit better now. You don't even want to see their D&D system, I shit you not. Even one of their group criticised it as broken, but it was more for the fun, not the technical aspect on the night. My point is that I have developed my own play style (though it's not all chaotic "do it my way" stuff, I do have sensible characters too) and when something else is introduced to me for the first time, my instinct could only tell me I was playing wrong or it was the game. And since I survived without pissing off my higher ups, it couldn't be me either as I served my role as lackey.

Generally a "this or nothing approach" is almost always a (bad) GM thing. Some GMs like to lead the group around by the nose and control everything the players do. It sucks.

Now there might be times in a game where the PCs have to work under a chain of command, and obey orders but that's different. While it is something that could, and should pop up in a Samurai campaign, it could just as easily pop up in a Star Trek game or modern military campaign.

Maybe that's it. I hate people who order others about IRL, maybe I just couldn't switch it off. But with a group that has its favourites, maybe there's more to it than just one thing. As the least experienced, I was also least confident.

Nobody likes to take orders, but sometimes it goes with the territory. In a military organization the PCs would be subject to chain of command, and will often be ordered to do things. But in a good campaign the GM will try to give the PCs some autonomy so they can find thier own way to handle things.

For example, in my last Star Wars campaign, there was a Jedi Padawan and a Clone Trooper in the group. Technically both were part of the military and sucject to orders. There was an NPC Jedi General who they usually took orders from (not to mention the Chancellor and the Jedi Council). But in actual play, the PCs got separated a lot, and put into lots of situations where they were free to make their own choices. Typically the PCs just had to say "yes sir" a few times at the start of the adventure and then they were on their own.

Let's find out. You're obviously a big fan of Bushido, so give me an example of how any given situation would go from a player standpoint. For example, if your group has someone playing domain lord and you accidentally **** something up in front of a guest, what would happen? Take it from there and then we'll know what element it really was. You mentioned a GM problem, but I can't really tell. I probably won't play it again either way, but if the issue is identified, I can avoid making the same mistake in other games.

First off I'm not a big fan of Bushido. It was good for what it attempted to do (it was the second Samurai RPG, I think), but the mechanics are a bit clunky.

As far as a PC accidentally ****** something up in front of a guest, what would happen would depend on the situation, nature of the transgression, the guest, and what the repercussions of the action were. If the mix up were something minor, the PC might not get "punished" at all, just the social gaffe would be considered punishment enough. More serious transgression might merit a tongue lashing or extra duties.

A character would have to do something really bad (treason) or really really rude (giving your lord and the Emperor some exotic and colorful ideas about what they can do with themselves) to merit and execution. Generally a Samurai would be order to commit Seppuku (ritual suicide) rather than be humiliated with an execution (that would also shame the family and clan).

But, one major problem that modern people tend to have with feudal Japan is that modern people are used to trash talking. Trash talking will get you killed in a feudal Japanese setting. Probably faster than just about anything else. A direct insult pretty much forces the insulted to act in order to preserve his honor.

Finally, I know it seems like I'm bitching a lot about my former group, but I do have a lot of fun memories with them, great times. I'm going to start a new thread on a related note, see if we can come down a bit from the seriousness this one got into.

You are not alone there. I think we all bitch about our former groups. I had a group that I couldn't run in some RPGs, including RQ, because they just didn't get it. THey kept trying to treat Glorantha like it was some generic LOTR clone, and got horrible results. I ran Bushido, L5R, Pendragon, D6 Star Wars, LOTR and several other RPGs with that particular group only to run into the same problem - they kept trying to play it like they were in a D&D game.

[Rob]

Ok, after yet another L5R reference, I now HAVE to ask- what is that? Otherwise, I'm never going to keep up. seems that having played for 6 years, I'm still just dabbling.

As for the **** ups, as far as I can remember (which from me, tends to mean I'll likely get details wrong) it was stuff that could be forgivable. Our domain lord was a pretty strict bastard and didn't tolerate much of anything. And I SWEAR I didn't get killed! I honestly didn't. I got stabbed in a fight with a ninja, granted, but I lived. Domain lord wasn't too pleased, but did offer to teach me some techniques.

I understand trying to play everything the same way can be bad (I do nw anyway), but the exception, of course, is Cthulhu, where even laying well can get you killed because ... well, it's Cthulhu. And I just remembered a campaign where I was the last man standing. A good feeling for the least experienced person at the table, I must say.

Then I died. That's the strange thng though, isn't it? Cthulhu is an absolutely unforgiving game to play, but it's fucking excellent. I love it.

[rust]

Ok, after yet another L5R reference, I now HAVE to ask- what is that?

A roleplaying game setting and system very similar to feudal Japan:

Legend of the Five Rings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Rob]

Ah! Got it, thanks.

[Atgxtg]

My bad, I should have clarified LR5.

I guess it's a good thing I didn't bring up UY 2

[Rob]

You did that on purpose. Google time, methinks. Now go, sit in the corner and think about what you did.

[Atgxtg]

You did that on purpose. Google time, methinks. Now go, sit in the corner and think about what you did.

Yes I did. BTW, I was referring to Usagi Yojimbo, the Sanguine Edition, which might be the next feudal Japanese RPG I'll run. Anthropomorphic animals aside, it does a good job of capturing the setting, and the rules (a simpled and cleaned up version of the Iron Claw system) is interesting. It's one of the few that really makes it important to figure out what kind of fighting style your opponent is using rather than just relying on high skill/stats. It does a nice job handling reach weapons, and can handle those classic scenes where on Samruai takes down a mob without being unbalanced.

But sorry about dropping the "mystery" L5R reference.

It might have altered my take on your experience with Bushido, too. The last time I ran Legend of the Five Rings, I had a group of 4 players. Two of the players were doing well and advancing, while the other two kept dieing off each week. Now to this day at least one of the two swears that he was "doing things the way they should be done" and that I some sort of restrictive ogre of a GM. I claim he just plays reckless and stupid, and can generally convince most gamers of that. For example, running down a mountainside and charging 6 bakemono (Japanese "goblins") with a begging PC is suicide in most FRPGs. Doing so with a character who is primarily a horse archer even more so. Doing so when all the other characters have mountaineering and you don't is dumb.Doing so when you could have stayed up on the hill with the NPCs and pepper the bakemono with arrows from higher ground behind cover is tactically stupid. And the other guy kept wading into swordfights without drawing his sword.

So I might have been a bit biased.

[soltakss]

There, you see, he is nice ...

Sometimes

[Aycorn]

how do you feature an NPC that cannot be killed or harmed in a game without unbalancing it completely? Having him give out a quest/mission seems like a plan, but are there any other ways?

They don't have to show up as an antagonist. I agree with others - look at mythology. They might just show up to add color or interest.

[seneschal]

You could take the Star Trek Next Generation Q route and have him show up occasionally to help out but mostly to make snide remarks about human foibles. The deity or his avatar won't save the PCs' butts directly, but his comments and complaints could give them the information needed to solve the immediate problem on their own. Sort of like a fairy godmother, only snarky.

Or you could reverse the situation. The god has a problem he can't solve (divine politics or whatever) but the adventurers' actions might solve his dilemma if he can manipulate them to do what he wants (he can't directly give them a mission to do a certain task).