System Wars

[soltakss]

As a long-time player of RQ, I was pleased when Mongoose brought out their version, but not so pleased to see the quality of the supplements.

I was also pleased to see that Chaosium were bringing out BRP as well, although not so pleased to see it had a lot from CoC in it.

As I have no life of my own, I visit several, although by no means all, of the RQ/BRP forums and have noticed some things happening time and time again.

People seem to be very supportive of their favourite system and dismissive of the other, similar systems. Quite often, this is not just system based but seems to have a large amount of hostility to certain companies or people.

For example:

1. There are many people who like HeroQuest and snootily dismiss RQ.

2. There are a lot of people who like BRP (or D100 as it will probably be called) and despise RQ, HQ and the companies behind them.

3. There are a lot of people who like RQ and despise HQ.

I seem to be in a minority, for some reason, as I like RuneQuest, HeroQuest and BRP. In fact, I see them as being from the same family of games, yes even HeroQuest, and see them as being very connected.

Other people, however, do not share my views.

Sure, they all have their faults and could be better, but they are all fairly good systems - after all, I've been playing them in various forms since 1982 and don't play ANY other RPG.

What I would like to see is people supporting all these games. I'd like to see websites with conversion rules and examples of how to use Legendary Abilities in D100, HeroQuest Cults converted to RQ, the excellent modularity of RQ applied to BRP etc.

I'd like to see fanzines for BRP also accepting dual-stats for RQ, or even stats for D100, RQ and HQ. I'd like to see fanzines for RQ accepting D100/HQ stats. I'd like to see variants of RQ/D100/HQ rules written in such a way as to be compatible with the other rulesets.

Is that too much to ask?

What I am afraid might happen is that the BRP/RQ gaming fraternity splits up into warring factions. That D100 becomes violently incompatible with RQ and vice versa. That people are forced not to write things in one system because someone leans on them or threatens them with some legal action.

At the moment, I can't submit anything even remotely connected with RQ to a proposed D100 fanzine. So, I couldn't write up a Fantasy Europe setting and say it was compatible with Stupor Mundi, because Stupor Mundi is based on the RQ SRD.

Personally, I think that this is a short-sighted approach.

We all know that RQ only survived as long as it did because of the fanzines and online discussion groups/websites, mainly Tales of the Reaching Moon and the Gloranthan and RQ-Rules Digests. If it hadn't been for them, RQ would have vanished long ago. Similarly, Chaosium probably wouldn't have bothered bringing out D100 if the RQ community hadn't been as strong.

Part of the problem is the Licences the new games come out under. Issaries has the Fan Policy that has driven many websites off the web and has stopped many publishers from publishing. Mongoose has the Open Gaming Licence, which seems reasonable, but makes Glorantha off-limits. I don't know what Chaosium has for D100, but unless they make it fairly open, then they are going to struggle.

In my opinion, Chaosium will need a lot of third-party publishing to bolster D100 as I can't see them matching Mongoose's output on their own. Mongoose is also going to rely on third-party supplements to produce RQ settings outside their own ones. Issaries have had several publishers producing supplements for HeroQuest, but I think they need more and that their Fan Policy is too restrictive.

If people worked together, they would have a lot better chance of keeping the games alive and well supported.

If it came to a battle between Chaosium and Mongoose, I know who I'd put money on.

So, what BRP-style games are out at the moment?

RQ

Stupor Mundi

GORE

D100 (well, out soon)

BRP Monographs (RQ3 in all but name)

How many of those are well supported?

RQ

That says it all, really.

I'm beginning to wander as it's very late, so I'll stop now.

Except to say, please don't start the System Wars as I don't really want to see these games being flushed down the toilet again.

I've put on my tin hat and asbestos flak jacket, waiting for the flames to come ......

[badcat]

No flames here. We're friendly.

No, Chaosium can't compete with Mongoose. No arguing that. Maybe they won't have to, though. I look at MRQ as being a sort of BRP homebrew, and I can see how some people would want to use the material for BRP, its that close...but I choose not to support Mongoose, as I don't like their attitude, marketing, or system changes. If their existance helps BRP that's fine, if they go under tomorrow that's fine too. I don't mind if BRP doesn't become the biggest game company, in fact I hope they stay about like they are, or maybe do just enough better to keep putting out good stuff that isn't 99% driven by profit motive. I certainly won't diss you for liking or using MRQ stuff, but I won't in any case.

I don't see Heroquest being part of the BRP 'constellation' of games. Stafford has distanced himself from the kind of games I like, and I never had any use for Glorantha to start with. I believe Heroquest has nothing to do with Chaosium and BRP now. They have gone two separate ways. Again, if you want to use Issaries material, and I can see its value for a Glorantha-based game, more power to you. But I am not interested in Glorantha or Heroquest or what Stafford thinks is or is not a good or proper role playing game.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that some of us just appreciate BRP for what it is. With no attachments and no need for pre-established support.

All that off my chest, yes, we do need to work together. I really don't think anyone is going to jump on you if want to talk about your favorite game or have something published in the fanzine or whatever. Just relax and jump in. It seems that everyone who is posting here so far is very open, friendly, and accepting of different viewpoints. I really hope we can keep it that way. So welcome and lets not try to flush any of these games. We all have preferences, as above, and we sure don't want to start any System Wars.

[Chaot]

At first I was upset at the Mongoose posts on RPGnet about MRQ being BRP with the serial numbers filed off. Then I got over it.

Then I was pissed at the whole Mongoose playtest debacle. But I got over that too.

I bought the MRQ main book and companion, read them, then gave them away to someone who might use them. The system was so-so with faults well documented elsewhere. I wasn't so upset about that as I was at the cost to content ratio.

I got Lankhmar and Newhon because I wanted to mine it for a game set there. I was a bit disappointed that it didn't really do anything new (and seemed to borrow from some fan based material...).

I've been picking up the eternal champion stuff. It's interesting and I'll probably use some of the content with Elric! as a core.

Maybe all that sets a precedent, because when Deluxe RuneQuest (hmm, where have I heard that before) comes out, I'm going to pick it up. I kinda feel loyal to Chaosium as a company, which is something that I rarely say. However, the interest in D100 systems that MRQ is bringing to the hobby could be very beneficial to Chaosium. Especially as Chaosium has a superior product in DBRP.

So, I don't want to see system wars either. Mongoose is going to profit from me because I feel like stealing bits and pieces from them. Chaosium can profit from Mongoose if MRQ players are interested in expanding their rules set (and if the various rumored supplements for DBRP come out, their settings).

Secondary to all this is the 'do it yourself' feeling that comes along with BRP. Whether it's the dearth of published BRP stuff or the nature of a BRP player, we seem to like to tinker. Those among us who are generous like to share their ideas. For whatever it's worth.

What I would like to see is people supporting all these games. I'd like to see websites with conversion rules and examples of how to use Legendary Abilities in D100, HeroQuest Cults converted to RQ, the excellent modularity of RQ applied to BRP etc.

*snip*

Is that too much to ask?

Nope. Check out our own AikiGhost's post over at RPGnet 'Adding Heroquest style augments to RQ and BRP?'

[Trifletraxor]

People seem to be very supportive of their favourite system and dismissive of the other, similar systems. Quite often, this is not just system based but seems to have a large amount of hostility to certain companies or people.

I don't like Mongoose Publishing because of the quality and cost of their products, so that's very system based. Now with BRP coming out, I don't mind that much. I can convert their scenarios to BRP, and MRQ might work as a stepping board from D&D to BRP. Issaire's I don't like because of the Issaire's fan policy which caused so many fansites to go offline. Considering how the fanbase was what kept Glorantha alive for such a long time, that's without doubt the worst Gregging ever. I don't mind the system, I just don't understand it. Way to alien. I've bought scenarios to convert to BRP, but haven't been able to do it. The systems where too different for me. I do love all the conversion on you site though!

What I would like to see is people supporting all these games. I'd like to see websites with conversion rules and examples of how to use Legendary Abilities in D100, HeroQuest Cults converted to RQ, the excellent modularity of RQ applied to BRP etc.

I would also love to conversion rules from any system actually, to BRP. But as there are few people who like to play all the games, there probably won't be that many webpages dedicated to all the systems (I only know of yours!).

I'd like to see fanzines for BRP also accepting dual-stats for RQ, or even stats for D100, RQ and HQ. I'd like to see fanzines for RQ accepting D100/HQ stats. I'd like to see variants of RQ/D100/HQ rules written in such a way as to be compatible with the other rulesets.

Tradetalk supports both Issaire's, Chaosium and MRQ (my MRQ Jelmre article will appear in issue #16). The BRP fanzine to be released on this site will accept dual stats (as long as BRP is one of them) - but Glorantha stuff might unfortunately be a problem because of the cursed fan policy.

What I am afraid might happen is that the BRP/RQ gaming fraternity splits up into warring factions. That D100 becomes violently incompatible with RQ and vice versa. That people are forced not to write things in one system because someone leans on them or threatens them with some legal action.

Well, there's the fan policy for you. I'm not sure what other restriction you would have.

At the moment, I can't submit anything even remotely connected with RQ to a proposed D100 fanzine.

Why is that?

Chaosium probably wouldn't have bothered bringing out D100 if the RQ community hadn't been as strong.

That is true. But I think the RQ community you refer to is the old one, which is now the BRP community. I do not think MRQ have the same loyal fanbase as BRP does.

Part of the problem is the Licences the new games come out under. Issaries has the Fan Policy that has driven many websites off the web and has stopped many publishers from publishing. Mongoose has the Open Gaming Licence, which seems reasonable, but makes Glorantha off-limits. I don't know what Chaosium has for D100, but unless they make it fairly open, then they are going to struggle.

I do applaud Mongoose for the OGL move. Glorantha is off-limits in the OGL only due to Issaire's. Chaosium will not go for an OGL, but will license to rules to 3rd party publishers. Much more restrictive than the OGL, but their fan policy will be very benign from what I understand. Just mentioning the trademarks and providing a link back to Chaosium's web-site would be enough according to Dustin (as long as we're talking about non-commercial stuff).

Sverre.

[Enpeze]

arghl.

Badcat was first.

He mentioned all the things I wanted to post. Well maybe I should not sleep so long. So I can nothing contribute, he said it already.

[soltakss]

Why is that?

Because I was told that I couldn't.

I asked Nick Middleton specifically if I could submit any articles about RQM to his new fanzine and he said NO because of the OGL Policy and Mongoose's actions. He quoted personal morality, whatever that is

To be fair, he said that I could send them to D100.org, but that's beside the point.

[Atgxtg]

Softakiss,

Sorry, but I think what you fear is the future for BRP. I just do see that much cooperation or cross platform stuff happening. Most of the die hard RQ groups and forums said "no thanks" to MRQ a year ago, and dual stat sourcebooks and supplements would probably only work if produced by a third party publisher, assuming that they would be allowed to do so.

Fragmentation of the RPG community is not a new thing. The RQers and the D&Ders have rarely seen eye to eye on things (not surprising considering the differences in approach between the two systems). With each splintering off of Glorantha and/or RQ the systems fanbase has split more and more.

As for Nick's policy, well Mongoose put some restriction on stuff that I submitted for Sign& Portents last year, too.. The days where magazines, even fanzines support more than one system or company are long gone.

Don't get me wrong, I wish both camps could all just get along, but I think the MRQ playtest fiasco proved that they can't. Unfortunately the RPG community isn't a community anymore as much as a business.

Heck, quite a few people here are those who had high hopes for MRQ and used to post on their forums and now have given up on Mongoose. I one of the few who still post at Mongooses site, and I've been one of MRQ's more vocal critics since the beginning. Once I was considered the radical extremist on the MRQ fourm, now I considered the moderate!

I just don't see any peaceful cooperation in our times. Probably the best thing that can happen is for both camps to ignore each other.

[soltakss]

I just don't see any peaceful cooperation in our times.

That's a great pity. It really is.

Probably the best thing that can happen is for both camps to ignore each other.

I can't see that happening, at least while I am here to stir them up!

[soltakss]

I would also love to conversion rules from any system actually, to BRP. But as there are few people who like to play all the games, there probably won't be that many webpages dedicated to all the systems (I only know of yours!).

That's a shame as well. I hope there will be more.

Funnily enough, when people talk about the BRP community, I'm never sure what they mean.

I've played Stormbringer once or twice, Hawkmoon once, CoC once or twice, never played ElfQuest, never played Ringworld, never played Worlds of Wonder, tried and failed to run a Superworld Campaign and played a hell of a lot of RQ2/3. Of all those games, the only one I have time for is RQ. To tell the truth, I wouldn't play CoC except at gun point and have little interest in the other games. So, does that make me a member of the BRP community? Certainly a die-hard member of the RQ community, but BRP always left me cold (no SRs, no Hit Locations, rubbish magic).

But, D100 seems, with its optional rules, to be a good extension of RQ3, despite having an ultra-generic magic section.

But, I happen to like RQ2, RQ3 and HeroQuest. Despite having reservations about RQM, I've enjoyed every game I played. I will probably like D100 as well. That almost certainly puts me in the BRP camp and also puts me in the RQ camp. So what am I?

[Atgxtg]

Hey I hope if come off. There are several advantages to joint BRP/MRQ projects. While the mechanics work differently, there is enough similarity in the stats to make dual products more more feasible than the ICE/HERO, Interlok/HERO, and D&D/L5R products of the past.

With a general conversion document, it would open up all the old stuff for mixing with the new. It could be a big win for the BRP community. Even Mongoose would benefit, as it would help to win back the RQers who have rejected MRQ.

And Chaosium was the crazy company that produced Thieves World, requiring cooperation with over a dozen different RPG companies.

But....

...Mongoose isn't run by a bunch of easy going Californian hippies.

I think we have a better chance of seeing Windows/Linux software.

[Trifletraxor]

Funnily enough, when people talk about the BRP community, I'm never sure what they mean.

The current BRP community (according to my own definition) consists of those who play old school RuneQuest, Chaosium Elric!/Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu, or any of the other d100 Chaosium games or homebrew d100 games based upon Chaosium's d100 systems.

The new system will be called "Basic Roleplaying" (not d100 as far as I know), and anyone playing that game will definitely be part of the community.

Sverre.

[Atgxtg]

Yuk, I think the new name is a misnomer. A sixteen page booklet could be Basic Role-playing. But the new game is more like "Advanced Role Playing".

Even the "Chaosium Role Playing System" would sound better.

Runebringer?

Call of Percentiles?

[badcat]

Soltakiss, ANYBODY who has played RQ as much as you is most assuredly a BRP fan-atic. As for 'rubbish magic system', watch your tongue, sirrah!

[soltakss]

Soltakiss, ANYBODY who has played RQ as much as you is most assuredly a BRP fan-atic. As for 'rubbish magic system', watch your tongue, sirrah!

RQ had battle/Spirit Magic, Rune/Divine Magic, Sorcery and Ritual Magic as well as various kinds of other magic. What did CoC have? A list of meaningless spells with no links between them. Ringworld and Superworld had no magic at all. Elric had demon summoning but no real magic. No comparison, really.

All in my opinion, of course.

[badcat]

Of course. Have you ever read the Bronze Grimoire?

And Magic World+Arcanum makes the best magic system I have ever played, much more flavorful than RQ3 and with more possibilities. I agree about CoC, by the way, but I think it is largely because the authors didn't expect the players to be full fledged mages. At least as long as they were still sane and human and under the players' control. So I am not sure that is a fair comparison. One reason I would like to have seen Magic World (especially) expanded into a full magic system is that I have never been satisfied with any of the Chaosium setting ones. Or Mongooses' now. My own expansion of the Magic World system beefed up with the old Bard Games stuff has been my primary magic system for many years. Although I did use the SB5 summoning plus the Bronze Grimoire for a while too. It had some brilliant material detailing Runes and Necromancy, if you have not seen it, even though I have a feeling you know all about it already.

[Sorloc]

... and MRQ might work as a stepping board from D&D to BRP...

Nope, sorry, probably won't. I would wish for the same thing, but I sincerely doubt it, and my reasoning is twofold:

1) ICE thought the same thing when they released HARP, that it was kind of 'between' dnd and RoleMaster, and might entice dnd purchasers / players over to HARP, and then possibly to RM. It seems that it has done less of that than it has caused a schism between RoleMaster players; some prefer RM, some prefer HARP, but it does not seem (to me, an outsider, but someone who has spent a LOT of time in the ICE forums) to have brought many curious dnd-ers.

why?

2) They don't want to change.

Let's face it; if dnd players were at all interested in playing a better system, they wouldn't be playing dnd any more. It's one of the worst systems I've ever played - and with 3.5, make it THE worst (but that's probably because my friends warned me away from Castle Perilous).

Every time the subject of dnd's inferiority comes up, on any forum, the defenders all say how simple it is - which is blatantly false, it's simplistic, not simple; complicated yet not complex. It's All F'ed Up.

Many dnd players will concede various points about the system, even admitting that they've 'House Ruled' the game into near-unrecognizability, but they always say, "yes, but..."

With dnd about to become a pen&paper video game :confused: , the potential may exist to market to newbies, heading off dnd, but I wouldn't count on it, as video games start before books now.

[Sorloc]

Is Moon Design Publications still in business? They did a pretty good job on RQ material in the past, while it was lying bleeding and abandoned in a ditch.

[badcat]

What Sorloc said about D&D. I cannot disagree.

I do see quite a few gamers drifting away from D&D, though. Lately I have been searching for forums frequented by folks I feel comfortable with, and found a couple of sites with a fair number of individuals talking about how they are looking for something different. Troll Lords and White Silver Publishing are two good examples. These games are pretty different from BRP, yes, but what is important is that people on these sites and others (I hope) are talking about certain things in common: the longing for simpler more logical system, system/game that does not restrict what the PC can do, games that don't cost an arm and a leg to get into and keep playing, a game that gives control back to the gm, a game that can be easily modified without breaking, and so forth. In other words, a whole lot of gamers are looking for games that have an amazing similarity to BRP even with different rules. C&C is class and level, but it also has a great deal of flexibility and is playable without a lot of constant rules lawyering; even though it shares the same resolution system with 3.5 it apparently plays with a very similar 'feel' as many simpler games. I see that Sorloc says he spent a lot of time at the ICE forums, and HARP is yet another game that has a lot of the factors listed above. Hey, they are cropping up all over the place. So there may be more unity among gamers than first appears...we may have different tastes as far as minutiae, but a very large percentage of us have a preference for a certain feel, a certain playability without a lot of hassle. I feel a cameraderie with the guys over at Troll Lords because we share the same attitude even though we prefer different games and systems. So it might be best to not look at it as us against them; I think there might be a broad swell of discontent against a certain attitude; a discontent held in common by many of the people that share this great hobby of ours. Maybe there is hope, and anyway it ain't over till the fat lady sings, and she hasn't sung yet as far as I can tell.

[Simlasa]

It's funny to me that D&D is moving to be more like World Of Warcraft... since to me World Of Warcraft seemed a lot like D&D.

A lot of the things that annoy me about D&D (levels, classes, reliance on 'magic' items) seems to really serve video games concerns... levels give the designers an excuse to control the rate at which you move through the limited game content ("You can't go there yet, you're too low level") and classes force players to develop characters along predictable lines by creating 'niches ("We need a meatshield, go find a warrior"). All the concentration on magic items makes appeals to consumptive/collector mindset ("If I can just finish this quest I'll get that great shield") and keeps players clamoring to renew their subscriptions.

Those things seem to serve the limitations of video games so well... that I wonder over how they originated with a pen & paper game that shouldn't need any such restrictions.

[Enpeze]

It's funny to me that D&D is moving to be more like World Of Warcraft... since to me World Of Warcraft seemed a lot like D&D.

A lot of the things that annoy me about D&D (levels, classes, reliance on 'magic' items) seems to really serve video games concerns... levels give the designers an excuse to control the rate at which you move through the limited game content ("You can't go there yet, you're too low level") and classes force players to develop characters along predictable lines by creating 'niches ("We need a meatshield, go find a warrior"). All the concentration on magic items makes appeals to consumptive/collector mindset ("If I can just finish this quest I'll get that great shield") and keeps players clamoring to renew their subscriptions.

Those things seem to serve the limitations of video games so well... that I wonder over how they originated with a pen & paper game that shouldn't need any such restrictions.

I guess this is the way the average gamer likes his roleplaying game. See all these juvenile hypes about superninjaherowhatever mangas, invincible, armored, walking mechwarriors and so on. I am playing a little bit WoW since 2 years and I got in contact with other players. Most of them (not all and mostly juveniles) like to show around THEIR T4 equipment, THEIR mighty hammers, THEIR epic superfast mounts. They run around like peachicks. Its like in real life, if one buys a porsche sports car, instead of a practical car. (only much cheaper for a fee of 13 bucks/month)

So I am quite sure in the future we will see that pen and paper rpgs and MMORPGs are melting together even more than 4.0 and WoW does it now. This I meant with my post (in another thread) that BRP will not have much chance against the primordial power of a system like D&D. But I hope it will at least have its fair shair of the rest of the market.

[soltakss]

There's no way that any game will challenge AD&D/D20's position in the market. A lot of people like playing those games and have no reason to stop.

But, they can also play other games and players of other games can play AD&D. I know I played a campaign for a couple of years after I started playing RQ and most people in my RQ games have played AD&D and many other games as well.

The best anyone can hope for is that people buy and play their games regardless of what AD&D/D20 players do.

It's a bit like an iPOD Killer. There's no such thing. Some people will buy an iPOD and another music player, some will just buy an alternative. But, a lot of people with buy just an iPOD as they think they are cool.

[badcat]

Unfortunately that's the way I read the situation too. I am just hoping that now that other games are popping up again I can skim some cream off the surface, so to speak.

[Enpeze]

There's no way that any game will challenge AD&D/D20's position in the market. A lot of people like playing those games and have no reason to stop.

But, they can also play other games and players of other games can play AD&D. I know I played a campaign for a couple of years after I started playing RQ and most people in my RQ games have played AD&D and many other games as well.

The best anyone can hope for is that people buy and play their games regardless of what AD&D/D20 players do.

It's a bit like an iPOD Killer. There's no such thing. Some people will buy an iPOD and another music player, some will just buy an alternative. But, a lot of people with buy just an iPOD as they think they are cool.

With the difference that the ipod has the best music software (itunes), a beautiful design and excellent technical stats.

[Atgxtg]

Well, I for do see the possibility of D&D being dethroned one day. 3.0 was made in part because AD&D was slipping. The game didn7t have the dominance of the RPG field that it had in the 80s. In a way, CCGs such as Magic have alrready dethroned D&D. So it could happen.

But, thanks to OGL, the system has become somewhat independent of WotC. For example it is actually possible that 3.5 might beat 4.0 in sales.

RPGs are always vulnerable, as they need to constantly see new products to stay alive. That is the dictonomy between business and gaming. RPGs that are no longer being supported don't Count from a business standpoint, as they are not generating revenue.

But, as differernt gamers have different styles of play and want differernt things from an RPG, it is probably better if the masses don't flock to BRP. Otherwise Chasoium might end up altering BRP to please the masses and generate sales. I've seen what RQ looks like when rewritten for the D&D crowd, I7d rather not see it again.

[Trifletraxor]

I've seen what RQ looks like when rewritten for the D&D crowd, I7d rather not see it again.

Some words of wisdom there.

Sverre.