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Hooking with Halberds


Layec

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I'm working on overhauling the weapons system* for medieval/fantasy, and have run into a snag with halberds. The hook on the back of the halberd wasn't a pick for finishing incapacitated foes as I had originally thought. Pollaxes normally have those. No, the hook was primarily used to drag mounted combatants off their horses, and secondarily to trip and hook the limbs and weapons of those on foot. I'd like to model those effects as well, but I'm not sure how to go about that. Have any of you done this? Are there books that cover this? What would you suggest??

*adding a penetration mechanic, adjusting damage values, making prices at least somewhat historic, making weapons have different modes depending on how it's used (hammers, axes, picks having different values depending on which head you want to use, halfswording/thrusting with swords, etc.). Might end up being more complex, but mostly on the bookkeeping end and not the dice-rolling end, which I don't mind if adds to realism/flavor/fun.

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If you succeed in attacking with a halberd, the next action could be a STR vs STR roll to pull the rider from his horse. You might want to make the first roll a special, so that it acts a bit like a swordbreaker.

As a swordbreaker, it could be used to disarm people, make a special roll and then make a STR vs STR to tank the weapon out of the hands. To trip a character up, make a special and then make a STR vs DEX roll.

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If you succeed in attacking with a halberd, the next action could be a STR vs STR roll to pull the rider from his horse. You might want to make the first roll a special, so that it acts a bit like a swordbreaker.

In my humble opinion, requiring a special is a bit too much. The STR vs STR roll gives a character about one chance in two to succeed, though he scored a special result...

Why not just applying the same rules than with the Grappling skill? After all, it is nothing else but Grappling with a weapon.

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Yep for halberds I reckon you have a choice of Attacking for damage as usual, or you may choose to Grapple if the halberd has a specific hook designed for this purpose.

The dismounted rider would then be Prone for the next round, quite an advantage for the halberd wielder. Sounds like how I would wing it.

Edited by Mankcam

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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Basic Roleplaying page 222 - Entangle Spot Rule. Entangle special effect, page 194. Basically, any weapon designed to entangle does it automatically on a special success; a character can try to do it deliberately but that makes the attack roll difficult.

In the context of generic BRP this seems about right - "hooking" is trickier that simply striking an opponent, and generic BRP isn't the game for simulating the specific differences between an English bill hook , a halberd and a ranseur.

If I were looking to make such distinctions I'd look at weapon timing, weight and reach mechanics: halberds are a pig to use IME, as the are very head-heavy, so the finesse for reliable hooking is trickier (more effort to get the head moving, and to control it), but they impact harder; the ranseur in contrast is light and nimble; well adapted for hooking (well, pinning, technically, albeit I often fought using one with small back curving blades as well as the main trident like layout), but lacks the impact of a halberd.

Cheers,

Nick

Edited by NickMiddleton
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Basic Roleplaying page 222 - Entangle Spot Rule. Entangle special effect, page 194. Basically, any weapon designed to entangle does it automatically on a special success; a character can try to do it deliberately but that makes the attack roll difficult.
Yes, this sounds right on the money. Scrap what I said regarding using Grapple, of course, the Entangle mechanic was there all along...thanks for pointing that out! ;t)

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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If I were looking to make such distinctions I'd look at weapon timing, weight and reach mechanics: halberds are a pig to use IME, as the are very head-heavy, so the finesse for reliable hooking is trickier (more effort to get the head moving, and to control it), but they impact harder; the ranseur in contrast is light and nimble; well adapted for hooking (well, pinning, technically, albeit I often fought using one with small back curving blades as well as the main trident like layout), but lacks the impact of a halberd.

So, if you were interested in that level of granularity, what is the best mechanic for dealing with weapon timing? Using the Strike Rank optional rules and giving the ranseur a lower SR than the halberd?

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Yes, this sounds right on the money. Scrap what I said regarding using Grapple, of course, the Entangle mechanic was there all along...thanks for pointing that out! ;t)

Yes. Thanks. I considered that this rule was made only for flexible weapons like whip or bolas... And never thought about the fact that it can be used for other ones... So, scrap what I say about grappling too.

Just a note, though : if the player character really wants to make his foe fall down, he'd better accept the hard difficulty (skill/2) rather than waiting a special (skill/5).

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One idea you might want to go with is to give each weapon a list of possible special effects and let the character chose which one to use on a critical. The Usagi Yojimbo RPG does this, and the new RQ does something similar.

All you would need to do is list the possible special effects and write up spot rules for the effects that aren't already covered, and then just add the appropriate specials to each weapon's description. Some pre-existing rules such as attacking to break weapons, attacking to knockdown, disarms, and called shots could all be adapted into possible special effects.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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So, if you were interested in that level of granularity, what is the best mechanic for dealing with weapon timing? Using the Strike Rank optional rules and giving the ranseur a lower SR than the halberd?

That's not a bad start - reevaluating the weapon SR ratings so they are reflective of overall utility, not just raw length makes sense. I'd also want to look again at timings overall - I've never been happy with how strike rank morphed from the pure "who strikes first when two combatants square off" system it was in RQ1 to the general "action scene timing scheme" it had become by RQIII...

Cheers,

Nick

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That's not a bad start - reevaluating the weapon SR ratings so they are reflective of overall utility, not just raw length makes sense. I'd also want to look again at timings overall - I've never been happy with how strike rank morphed from the pure "who strikes first when two combatants square off" system it was in RQ1 to the general "action scene timing scheme" it had become by RQIII...

Cheers,

Nick

I was thinking that SR could be broken down into Speed and Reach. Could determine WHEN a character acts during the round, but reach could work much like in D20, determining what targets are viable.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I was thinking that SR could be broken down into Speed and Reach. Could determine WHEN a character acts during the round, but reach could work much like in D20, determining what targets are viable.

This would be even easier using the Classic Fantasy minis rules. I'm still not 100% sold on Actions as presented, but reach ought to be easy enough to deal with in that situation.

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This would be even easier using the Classic Fantasy minis rules. I'm still not 100% sold on Actions as presented, but reach ought to be easy enough to deal with in that situation.

Esepcially since the SR table for weapons gives lengths. What I could see is giving each character a reach rating (1m for a typical human) and add it to the weapon's reach. If an attacker moves into the reach, the character can interrupt the SR order to make an attack then.

Somebody who wants to get in close is either going to have to defend against the reach attack, attack the weapon (to knock it out of line), or wait until after the guy with the longer weapon has attacked, say by bringing in a buddy to draw an attack.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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My interpretation of the entangling rules is that a weapon designed and used as an entangling weapon does no damage, but a normal success counts as a "Special" success and entangles the target. On the Primitive Weapons table, bola, lasso, and net list no damage, but under damage, it says "Special," which I interpreted as meaning that regular damage from a Normal success equals a Special success--which for these weapons, means entanglement. Compare to the whip, which does list damage, and only entangles on an actual Special success. This is intuitively how each of these weapons works--a trained net user uses the net to entangle and is as effective in that as a trained sword user is in slashing and stabbing. A trained whip user uses the whip to cause pain and only rarely succeeds in entangling someone.

Admittedly, the entangling rules make it sound as if no weapon entangles except on a Special success. But if bola, net, lasso, (man-catcher, snake tongs, etc.) have no effect except on a Special success, they're nearly useless. Would someone with 90% net skill really only be able to entangle 45% of the time?

This wouldn't apply to halberds, since halberds are primarily damaging weapons and only secondarily entangling weapons.

Has anyone used entangling weapons? How did you interpret the rules? Were entangling-only weapons effective?

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edited after re-reading rules AGAIN--I need to read more carefully before posting

The Entangle rules on page 222 of BGB on deliberate entanglements being Difficult attacks seem to apply to weapons that aren't normally used for entangling. The example given is a spiked mace, which could conceivably be used to snag someone's armor, but isn't designed to do so.

It should be much, much easier to make an entanglement attack using a net, lasso, or bolo than it is using a spiked mace. I think this provides more evidence that entangling-only weapons should entangle on a normal success.

Halberds often have a pike on the end, an axe on one side, and a hook on the other side. I'd have the player decide beforehand whether the attack is piercing, slashing, or entangling. The piercing and slashing attacks would be normal; the entangling attack would be difficult. The piercing attack might do pike damage rather than halberd damage--but it might be easier against a charging opponent. A versatile and vicious weapon, but one that is useless at close range or in tight quarters. I would give halberd user one attack before an opponent closed--then you'd have to switch to a shorter-range weapon.

Edited by Aelwyn
totally rewrote response after re-reading rules
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