Malkion in Umathela

[Manu]

I love the discussion about Mythical Pamaltela, but I like more 'mundane' information...

In Umathela, the main Malkion School is Sedalpism. But is there other school present? On the barbarian villages, are the Thanes Henotheist?

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, Manu said:

In Umathela, the main Malkion School is Sedalpism. But is there other school present?

The Vadeli and the Cult of Silence.  Perhaps Ompalam too.

A couple of others are mentioned in the Umathela section.  The daughters of Menena Guide p641 and the Son of Chaos p633 (although I feel the authors missed a chance to call him Demogorgon because the original was a Christian author's mispelling of Demiurge).  I daresay there's a few other unnamed cults but none are so widespread as the Sedalpists.   The section on the Sedalpists (Guide p623) mentions a post God-Learner esotericism which if still around be considered an alternative.

5 minutes ago, Manu said:

On the barbarian villages, are the Thanes Henotheist?

I'm not actually sure they have thanes.  But even assuming you meant people of similar social roles.

In Umathela, everybody would believe that the Invisible God exists.  Worshipping him is something else and that's generally done only by the wizards (Seshnela and Loskalm which try and ban the worship of other gods are exceptional).  So the real marker of whether somebody could be considered a Malkioni is whether or not he supports a wizard or practices caste.

[Manu]

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Vadeli and the Cult of Silence.  Perhaps Ompalam too.

From a 'gamer pint of view', what is the Vadeli school? I have never seen any info on the Vadeli school of magic. Do they have casts?  What are the relationship with other casts? And non Vadeli? What are their belief?... Well, anything I need to role play a little bit

Cult of Silence? I didn't know it was a school as such. I didn't see it as related to Malkion.

Ompalam cults aren't they more 'theists' than 'Western'?

17 minutes ago, metcalph said:

A couple of others are mentioned in the Umathela section.  The daughters of Menena Guide p641 and the Son of Chaos p633 (although I feel the authors missed a chance to call him Demogorgon because the original was a Christian author's mispelling of Demiurge).  I daresay there's a few other unnamed cults but none are so widespread as the Sedalpists.   The section on the Sedalpists (Guide p623) mentions a post God-Learner esotericism which if still around be considered an alternative.

OK, you mean a lot of small sects. But no Hrestolism, Rokarism, ...

 

18 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I'm not actually sure they have thanes.  But even assuming you meant people of similar social roles.

In Umathela, everybody would believe that the Invisible God exists.  Worshipping him is something else and that's generally done only by the wizards (Seshnela and Loskalm which try and ban the worship of other gods are exceptional).  So the real marker of whether somebody could be considered a Malkioni is whether or not he supports a wizard or practices caste.

Not actually Thanes? Did the orlanthist of Umathela forget all their Orlanthist ways?

But they still worship Orlanth, Ernalda, the Lightbringers,...?

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Manu said:

From a 'gamer pint of view', what is the Vadeli school? I have never seen any info on the Vadeli school of magic. Do they have casts?  What are the relationship with other casts? And non Vadeli? What are their belief?... Well, anything I need to role play a little bit

Generally the Vadeli are evil.  Greg once used the Cainists as an inspiration (a perhaps fictitious Gnostic sect which held that the since of the God of the Old Testament was really the Devil, anything he prohibited - murder etc - was actually good).  The Vadeli have castes of which two are known to exist - the numerous Browns (Commoners) and the rarer Reds (Warriors).  

 

1 minute ago, Manu said:

Cult of Silence? I didn't know it was a school as such. I didn't see it as related to Malkion.

I'm not sure that it is.  It may be.  It may not be.  The only people who know for sure are the Silent and they are not talking.

1 minute ago, Manu said:

Ompalam cults aren't they more 'theists' than 'Western'?

Ompalam is a supreme god.  A cryptic note in revealed mythologies (p49) suggests that he may have come from Oabil which may mean that he was originally a Vadeli philosophy.  Worshippers of Ompalam often worship other gods but they acknowledge Ompalam's supremacy.

 

1 minute ago, Manu said:

Not actually Thanes? Did the orlanthist of Umathela forget all their Orlanthist ways?

No, I was suggesting that they speak a different language and they have a slightly different society.

1 minute ago, Manu said:

But they still worship Orlanth, Ernalda, the Lightbringers,...?

They do but the names might be slightly different.  Orlanth might be known as Worlath or Baraku for example.

[Joerg]

Personally I expect that variants of linealist Hrestoli Makanism (the pre-Rokari form of Malkionism in Seshnela and most of the Middle Sea Empire) still are prevalent in the Malki coast, forming the basis for schools similar to the Pasos Navigationalists. The information in Men of the Sea probably is too churchy for the current model of Malkionism, but it had alternatives to the weird Sedalpists which aren't applicable to mainstream, in the box at the bottom of p.35.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Personally I expect that variants of linealist Hrestoli Makanism (the pre-Rokari form of Malkionism in Seshnela and most of the Middle Sea Empire) still are prevalent in the Malki coast, forming the basis for schools similar to the Pasos Navigationalists.

Linealist Hrestoli?  The Linealists (no Hrestoli) only appear in Book 1 of the Genertela Boxed set contrasted against the Hrestoli Idealists and haven't appear since.  Apart from the issues of rushed writing that has not been repeated since (no such conflict appears in the Seshnegi Kings List), the idea that a faith split over the issue of inheritance I feel to be rather strange (not as strange as the idea that a knightly family could serve the same noble family for a thousand years strange but still pretty suspension-of-disbelief-breaking IMO).

I think it wiser to say that variants of Hrestoli mysticism and Abiding Book communities are still found on the Malki coast.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Linealist Hrestoli?  The Linealists (no Hrestoli) only appear in Book 1 of the Genertela Boxed set contrasted against the Hrestoli Idealists and haven't appear since. 

I have been using this term for pre-Rokari Hrestolism for ages, and I haven't seen a better term yet. Abiding Book Makanism doesn't quite appeal to me, and it misses the (non-Irensavalist) Hrestolism nature of the pre-Rokari Malkionism.

The Loskalmi Idealist utopia is a weird aberration of Malkionism and has little in common with the Hrestolism that powered Seshnela since the third century.

 

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Apart from the issues of rushed writing that has not been repeated since (no such conflict appears in the Seshnegi Kings List), the idea that a faith split over the issue of inheritance I feel to be rather strange (not as strange as the idea that a knightly family could serve the same noble family for a thousand years strange but still pretty suspension-of-disbelief-breaking IMO).

"Linealist" basically has everyone remaining in their caste (however that is decided, whether the caste of the parents or the Brithini was of assigning the caste based on birth order) unless they qualify for the title of a (wo)Man-of-all (castes), formerly also known as "knight". You inherit the caste of your parents (including the zzabur caste) rather than "rise through the castes", a concept starkly at odds with the Brithini claims about the equal worth of each caste.

 

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

I think it wiser to say that variants of Hrestoli mysticism and Abiding Book communities are still found on the Malki coast.

Hrestoli mysticism is based on the concept of Joy of the Heart rather than ascetic denial, which makes it a quite rare path when compared to the austerities and similar self-inflicted atrocities you find in other mystical schools.

You cannot get rid of the Abiding Book - its Jrusteli authors picked elements from the prevailing philosophies when suggesting the text to the Hand of God. I won't say it was a scam, but it may have been the magical consequence of a huge body of philosophers creating a critical mass of sacred text that manifested itself. At the very least, some portions of the Abiding Book like the list of witnesses read very much like sponsored ads. RM p.17 on the last paragraph admits a greater human input to the document than the pious story usually sold to the masses.

 

I remember discussions where people stated that Rokarism was the prevailing form of Malkionism outside of Fronela, and backed up claims that this went for Umathela as well. Fortunately this blatant disregard for the consequences of the Closing has disappeared.

Still, this has left a vacuum of information about the Malkioni schools in Umathela. The Sedalpists cannot have taken over all of the Malki cities.

[davecake]

Yes, to what Peter says about Vadeli. Basically, they are nihilist breakaways from the ancient West, and they are in many ways similar to the Brithini, which is a thing you should never say around Brithini. Both follow ancient caste law and are immortal as a result. The Brithini elevate that law to the basis of a rigid conservative moral code, and try to follow it as rigidly as possible in spirit as well as letter. The Vadeli treat it as simply a set of constraints to work within, and assume that everything not explicitly forbidden is permitted. Notably, their caste law says almost nothing about how you should treat those outside the caste system, so the Vadeli take this as license to enslave, torture, cheat, etc the bulk of humanity. Doesn't mean they always will, but they see only practical, not moral, reasons why they shouldn't.

The castes now act more like sects perhaps, less integrated as a society than the Brithini - groups of Vadeli tend to be mostly the same caste, though they cooperate and work with each other, and you will find e.g. Red marines on Brown ships. This is probably because they lack the higher castes. 

All of them are cold, logical, and without any moral center. They are usually outwardly charming, but it's entirely superficial. In short, they are a race of sociopaths.

The Brown are not warriors, most are traders or sailors, and do not want to lose their long lives if the can help it, so are much more likely to cheat and steal and corrupt and manipulate than use violence. Or just trade that turns out to be a bad deal. Even if they do need to fight, they often rely on magically controlled monsters, or on mercenaries. They use sorcery, and can be very good at it, but are restricted by their caste as to what sorcery they can use. Control over non-sapient beings, travel magic that can also be used for sneaky purposes, and elemental magic useful for seafaring are common choices. Most of the Umathelan cost has Brown Vadeli slums full of weird creepy merchants selling odd things, often from very far away and sometimes very old.

The Red are warriors, and very violent and cruel. They also are not keen on risking their lives unnecessarily, but they are skilled, sorcerously powerful, and they fight incredibly dirty and mean and vicious and tactically smart. If your players ever end up fighting them, they should end up despising them. Like the Brown, their caste restricts what sorcery they can use, but as that means they concentrate on combat magic, that is unlikely to be seen as helpful by anyone.