Esrolian Trade Road

[Martin]

Does anyone care to speculate on the route of the Esrolian trade road from Bastis to Nochet? I am guessing it crosses the Malthin at Pennel  and the Gorphing at Jorsh?

Is there a spur off to Storos or to Rhigos?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Martin said:

Does anyone care to speculate on the route of the Esrolian trade road from Bastis to Nochet? I am guessing it crosses the Malthin at Pennel  and the Gorphing at Jorsh?

Is there a spur off to Storos or to Rhigos?

The endpoint is Rhigos, not Nochet.  Nochet is the spur.  It's noted in the Guide "Rhigos was the end of the Trade Road across Maniria"

You can see this based on which city dominated through much of the Third Age.  It's really only with the Opening that Nochet as well as Handra have dramatically flourished.  A shift towards Nochet had already started during the reign of Queen Bruvala, but I think that's a direct effect of increasing ties between Nochet, Karse, and Sartar.

From the Guide, we know that Staton and the Ditali Valley are on the Manirian Road.  Dizbos is noted for trade with the Trader Princes.  There's a stone bridge at Jorsh.

For a spur to Nochet, I'd go through Mylagos - that's an important holding for Queen Hendira and House Norinel.

[kr0p0s]

Something like Highwater - Yolanda - Selgos (via Trader River?) - Ferry - Temple of Peace - Yellowstone - Swarz - Bath - Saltcastle - Stanton. These places are all mentioned as centres of trade or influenced by Trader Princes. Would a lot of the trade then flow down the Gorphing River to the rich Esrolian lowlands and the city of Rhigos? Castelains body and possessions were separated into 52 parts and "each fragment of Castelain is housed in a “tomb”: stone temples to the Invisible God where the wizard-priests of the Trader Princes perform their rituals.". Does this imply numerous additional waystations along the route enabling access to local populations, and rare goods, beyond the cities?

Maniria needs a decent writeup to replace the non canon BoG. 

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, kr0p0s said:

These places are all mentioned as centres of trade or influenced by Trader Princes. Would a lot of the trade then flow down the Gorphing River to the rich Esrolian lowlands and the city of Rhigos?

From Staton go on to Dizbos (since there doesn't appear to be a good city on the upper Gorphing River).  Continue the road via Donbry to Jorsh and Rhigos (or spurs to Mylagos-Nochet or Storos).  Given the long, cross-country travel, I don't see that you'd need to have the Trader-Princes take the water route to Rhigos.  Thelos is probably the main shipment point downriver to Rhigos bringing timber from Caladraland and harvests from the Vinavale.

1 hour ago, kr0p0s said:

Does this imply numerous additional waystations along the route enabling access to local populations, and rare goods, beyond the cities?

I think that is likely.  

[kr0p0s]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

From Staton go on to Dizbos (since there doesn't appear to be a good city on the upper Gorphing River).  Continue the road via Donbry to Jorsh and Rhigos (or spurs to Mylagos-Nochet or Storos).  Given the long, cross-country travel, I don't see that you'd need to have the Trader-Princes take the water route to Rhigos.  Thelos is probably the main shipment point downriver to Rhigos bringing timber from Caladraland and harvests from the Vinavale.

I think that is likely.  

This route would also skirt the Caladraland client state of Thonble, and the Caladraland provinces of Vinavale (Solung and Thelos) and Porthomeka (Oxnos and Storos). Is there some reason that these areas were avoided when the Trade Road was instituted. There appears to be conflict between the people of Caladraland and the Esrolians (Adjustment War) and the Ditali/Solanthi (a history of raiding the region). The people of Caladraland seem culturally distinct from the "lowlanders".

I imagine the route from Saltcastle to Staton would be precarious, passing so close to Thonble lands. From Staton it may head north to Gorphing City before heading to Dizbos to skirt Thonble territory. I imagine the Gorphing River below Staton is controlled by Caldraland. They worship Gorphing, but apparently she favours the Ditali. Somewhat awkward.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, kr0p0s said:

This route would also skirt the Caladraland client state of Thonble, and the Caladraland provinces of Vinavale (Solung and Thelos) and Porthomeka (Oxnos and Storos). Is there some reason that these areas were avoided when the Trade Road was instituted. There appears to be conflict between the people of Caladraland and the Esrolians (Adjustment War) and the Ditali/Solanthi (a history of raiding the region). The people of Caladraland seem culturally distinct from the "lowlanders".

I don't know that we have much background on the region before the present era, by which point the Opening has occurred and the Trade Route been diminished.

Caladraland, Thonble, and the areas west into Maniria are populated by hill barbarians, mostly Orlanthi though other deities in Caladraland.  The Vinavale is orchard land, so more settled.  The clans raid each other, and likely did so through much of the 3rd Age.  Expect periodic charismatic leaders to arise (such as Greymane), who likely sought to get richer via the Trade Road, but who wouldn't want it to collapse or leave their territories.

 

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, kr0p0s said:

This route would also skirt the Caladraland client state of Thonble, and the Caladraland provinces of Vinavale (Solung and Thelos) and Porthomeka (Oxnos and Storos). Is there some reason that these areas were avoided when the Trade Road was instituted. There appears to be conflict between the people of Caladraland and the Esrolians (Adjustment War) and the Ditali/Solanthi (a history of raiding the region). The people of Caladraland seem culturally distinct from the "lowlanders".

I imagine the route from Saltcastle to Staton would be precarious, passing so close to Thonble lands. From Staton it may head north to Gorphing City before heading to Dizbos to skirt Thonble territory. I imagine the Gorphing River below Staton is controlled by Caldraland. They worship Gorphing, but apparently she favours the Ditali. Somewhat awkward.

When was the road established? The Guide gives Castelain's (successful) offer of instituting the road for 1170. That's just after the final throes of the Adjustment wars (Finelvanth dies in 1168). 

We don't have any dates for the establishment of Porthomeka. It might well have fallen into the power vacuum left by the expelled Adjustment overlords (or their stepping down from power, but remaining, letting their mostly local wives take the reign).

While all traders want to avoid requisition of their wares by one or the other side when entering contested lands, they often would gain acceptance by including the people nearby in their trading, so I don't think that they would avoid regions like Thonble, although maybe relegate them to a branch business from some other city on the main route.

Caladraland has its own native lowlanders, mainly in Vinavale and around the Low Temple in Highvale, who were the target of the God Learner experimentators who instituted the twin cult of Caladra and Aurelion. Whether they have orchards, staggered horticulture like the people on the slopes of Mt. Kilimanjaro (no, not the other one), or do hack and slash cultivation with their digging sticks, they don't plow (or employ draft beasts for plows). It isn't clear whether they have any domesticated or semi-domesticated beasts besides fowl. Possibly some variant of guinea pigs or the Polynesian rat for gatherers' meat. 

While the Guide offers some ideas about diet and agricultural produce in other regions, there are no such details for Caladraland. The region appears to be strongly under-described, as is most of its history. Even if much of the Slontan influences are actively forgotten, there should be some notes in the libraries to illuminate that region's history.

 

[Psullie]

I'd imagine Thelos would be a main station for many, transferring to river barge for onward journeys. However I think that few caravans make the complete journey, instead trading at key stations along the route and returning thereby remaining in familiar territory. 

I ran a game recently which saw significant trade heading south of Highwater to Handra via barge, then by ship to Nochet. Much faster and avoids all those trader princes. With the Opening and Handra's rise in prominence (it must be connected to markets in order to thrive as it has) I'd imagine that this would replace the old Manirian Road.

[kr0p0s]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

We don't have any dates for the establishment of Porthomeka.

"This old Esrolian province was conquered by Caladralander mercenaries after the Adjustment War." GG p257

Porthomeka is covered briefly in a box section on p242 of the Guide (The Warlords of Porthmeka). A rich agricultural region with a population of 150000 governed by Caladraland Warlords. Their autonomy was supported by Belintar, but with his departure internal conflict and native Esrolian rebellions seen to have occurred.

3 hours ago, Psullie said:

I ran a game recently which saw significant trade heading south of Highwater to Handra via barge, then by ship to Nochet. Much faster and avoids all those trader princes. With the Opening and Handra's rise in prominence (it must be connected to markets in order to thrive as it has) I'd imagine that this would replace the old Manirian Road.

Given all the activity of Solanthi and Ditali raiders, especially the large raids by Greymane into Esrolia, this would seem a safer bet for getting trade into Esrolia from Salfester. Volusus the Trader Prince of Jaraz and king of Nimistor is mentioned as plotting against Handra (GG p356). The drawing off of trade from Highwater to Handra and the loss of trade would give him reason enough to plot.

[Psullie]

1 hour ago, kr0p0s said:

Given all the activity of Solanthi and Ditali raiders, especially the large raids by Greymane into Esrolia, this would seem a safer bet for getting trade into Esrolia from Salfester. Volusus the Trader Prince of Jaraz and king of Nimistor is mentioned as plotting against Handra (GG p356). The drawing off of trade from Highwater to Handra and the loss of trade would give him reason enough to plot.

that was one of the many strands that served as the backdrop to the scenario... as said earlier Maniria could well do with some canon materials

[Mankcam]

The HQ book 'Blood Over Gold: Trader Princes of Maniria' was a great read for this, lots of adventuring opportunities working for the Trader Princes as their influence is declining due to the nautical trade routes established by Notchet to Handra. Lots of infighting and generally a great place for a non-epic campaign.

However it certainly is a long way from canon these days, and needs to be heavily re-skinned to be consistent with the G2G. I would love to see it revisited with the current interpretation of Glorantha.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Mankcam

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Psullie said:

to Handra via barge, then by ship to Nochet. Much faster and avoids all those trader princes. With the Opening and Handra's rise in prominence (it must be connected to markets in order to thrive as it has) I'd imagine that this would replace the old Manirian Road.

In two generations, you can see Nochet at least quadruple in size, and I'm sure explosive growth in Handra as well.  Coupled with the rise of Greymane, the old Manirian Road is not in good shape.