Magic Points and SR

[creativehum]

Following up from a question on another site, but posting here because I think this forum gets a lot more focus an attention:

• On page 254 it says a spell strike rank is DEX strike rank + magic points in spell + boosting magic points for the total SR.
• However on page 191 under "Magical Attacks And Strike Ranks" it says "Remember that the first magic point used in the spell has no strike rank modifier."

Is this an error? Or is there a way of squaring these two sentences I'm missing?

[PhilHibbs]

Clearly one of them is wrong. I'm waiting for the fixed PDF but I suspect it is the latter.

[Atgxtg]

It's in RQ2 as well. 

[styopa]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Clearly one of them is wrong. I'm waiting for the fixed PDF but I suspect it is the latter.

I agree with your expectation, but I think it should be the latter.  Logically, casting a spell should take SOME time.

[PhilHibbs]

Strike ranks are not time.

If you have a DEX of 16+ then you can cast a 1-point spell on SR 1. If you have 21+ then you can cast it again on SR 6, then 11. Quite an incentive, being able to cast 3 spells a round.

Edited June 22, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Atgxtg]

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Strike ranks are not time.

No, but they do reflect how long it takes to do something, and sequence of events, so from a practical view, they do the same thing. 

 

[PhilHibbs]

37 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

No, but they do reflect how long it takes to do something, and sequence of events, so from a practical view, they do the same thing. 

 

But the fact that, by a literal reading, a DEX 21 character casting a 1 point spell casts it on strike rank zero does not mean that the spell literally takes zero time to cast.

[Atgxtg]

52 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

But the fact that, by a literal reading, a DEX 21 character casting a 1 point spell casts it on strike rank zero does not mean that the spell literally takes zero time to cast.

Nope. It just means that it comes off after movement.

Personally I'd prefer the DEXSR +1 per MP. It's a lot easier to remember instead of DEXSR-1+1 per MP, but I think the reason why the -1 is in there is so you can toss of a disrupt at the same rate as you can shoot a bow.

[styopa]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Strike ranks are not time.

If you have a DEX of 16+ then you can cast a 1-point spell on SR 1. If you have 21+ then you can cast it again on SR 6, then 11. Quite an incentive, being able to cast 3 spells a round.

I understand they're ordinal, not cardinal numbers. 

But in the sense that they represent the time taken to do something, to determine the ORDER in which things are resolved, I'm simply saying that (in my very personal opinion) I see spell casting (even a 1 point spell) as taking a second, at least.  Thus it should come after 'releasing a held arrow' which is nearly no time.

Edit: Atgxtg said it more succinctly.

[Atgxtg]

4 minutes ago, styopa said:

Edit: Atgxtg said it more succinctly.

There really is a first time for everything!

[simonh]

49 minutes ago, styopa said:

Thus it should come after 'releasing a held arrow' which is nearly no time.

Edit: Atgxtg said it more succinctly.

After spotting a target, lining up the shot, adjusting for range and movement, drawing the bow on the nocked arrow, then releasing the arrow. Which only takes a few seconds, but it’s not instant.

I think I’ve said on another thread I prefer the RQ3 rule, 1SR per MP. It’s much easier, and the fact that even the rule book can’t keep it straight just shows how awkward the special exception for the first point of the spell is.

Edited June 22, 2018 by simonh

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, simonh said:

I think I’ve said on another thread I prefer the RQ3 rule, 1SR per MP. It’s much easier, and the fact that even the rule book can’t keep it straight just shows how awkward the special exception for the first point of the spell is.

Me too. RQ3 does have problems (bad sorcery, too much bookkeeping for fatigue) but it did run very smoothly, and addressed a lot of RQ2's bugs. 

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, simonh said:

After spotting a target, lining up the shot, adjusting for range and movement, drawing the bow on the nocked arrow, then releasing the arrow. Which only takes a few seconds, but it’s not instant.

I think I’ve said on another thread I prefer the RQ3 rule, 1SR per MP. It’s much easier, and the fact that even the rule book can’t keep it straight just shows how awkward the special exception for the first point of the spell is.

I agree - and if you wanted DEX 21 to be able to cast 3 spells a round then you just make the prep 4 SR instead of 5.

[Atgxtg]

13 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I agree - and if you wanted DEX 21 to be able to cast 3 spells a round then you just make the prep 4 SR instead of 5.

That and the bow going off before a  Disrupt are the only significant differences between the two that I can think of.

[Furry Fella]

This issue was raised for the now closed corrections thread. It is likely that either some words are missing re pages 193 and 195 OR pg 194 is a missed edit from a straight copy and paste from RQ2. I mention this as page 195 is a clear departure from earlier versions of RQ  which allowed only 1 spell per round unless with multispell or co-cast such as extension but it could include both physical and magical attack. Page 195 clearly changes that. See part quoted in bold.

"Multiple Activities
Within Melee
An adventurer has fewer options when engaged in a melee.
When engaged in melee, the adventurer must spend it
attacking and defending. While an adventurer might
throw a spell at an oncoming foe and then engage that
foe in combat within the same round, an adventurer
cannot, while engaged in combat, attack both physically
and magically.
This means that an adventurer who starts a round physically
engaged in melee may either:
. .Attack and defend normally; or
. . Defend normally and cast spells.
Thus, within a melee, an adventurer’s strike rank indicates
when they may initiate an attack. However, the adventurer
is performing that attack for the entire round and can do
little else except parry or Dodge.

Reading the Italics and underlined bit clearly limits combat to 1 offensive action (except as splitting attacks at over 100% or 2 weapons and no defensive action pertain as system listed exceptions).

How this interacts with page 193 which clearly indicates multiple spells in a combat round

"To determine the strike rank for spirit magic and sorcery
spells, add the strike rank modifier for the magic points used
in the spell to the adventurer’s DEX strike rank modifier.
Remember that the first magic point used in the spell has
no strike rank modifier. Any subsequent spells require 5
strike ranks to prepare, even if the same spell is being used."

Over all I'm fairly sure that the error is in the table on page 193 and

Magic Points
Each magic point used +1

Should read

Each magic point used (after the 1st) +1

This would sync with the other references and all of the previous versions. This would also provide some clarity to those worried about abuse of multispell. I'm not so worried as generating the power to restock the stored power used in such abuse is the catch.

 

 

[simonh]

3 hours ago, Furry Fella said:

How this interacts with page 193 which clearly indicates multiple spells in a combat round

 

I think multiple spells in a round is just if you are not engaged in melee. If you are, the restriction applies.

[creativehum]

1 hour ago, simonh said:

I think multiple spells in a round is just if you are not engaged in melee. If you are, the restriction applies.

As a side note, and as someone new to RQ, I like this. It means that a character focusing on casting spells wants to make sure not to be engaged in combat during a round as he might be able to get off additional spells. This provides more motivation to keep moving during the round, more use of the physical space of the combat, and will force decisions on whether to remain engaged or use one of the options to disengage if an opponent reaches him.

 

Also, I think I've figured out what the first MP of a spell doesn't count toward SR. Or at least why the rules say such. (Since Rune magic doesn't really exist we can argue to till the sun burns out about how it should "really" work.)

Both bows and arrows must be prepared. Preparing a spell or weapon ("Prepare a new weapon, reload a missile weapon, spell, or ready a missile (arrow, sling stone, crossbow bolt, etc.") is +5 to the SR. Meanwhile, using a prepared spell or weapon is +0 to the SR.

If the first MP of a spell adds +1 to the SR, this means that casting any prepared spell will always be cast at one SR after an arrow is released or a weapon swung (all other SR factors being equal). Which seems odd (at least to me) given that the the spell is prepared (just as the arrow or weapon is prepared) and ready for release. Mechanically, it puts spells at an odd disadvantage. 

And if one wants to enter the game of how magic "really" works, it seems to be a prepared spell should not suffer any particular disadvantage when competing with an arrow's flight or a sword swing. After all, the magic happens... well, magically. It doesn't need to traverse a certain amount of space like an arrow's flight or sword swing. Once cast, one can assume many spells are instantaneous, leaving aside the concerns of time and space. 

More powerful spells, in turn, need more effort to control and shape, and so the additional SR.

But game-wise, if one is willing to cast a lower-powered spell in order to get the spell off at the same rate as a prepared arrow shot it seems this provides interesting choices for he spell caster. There is a value (in my mind) for these sorts of choices for the players.

[Skovari]

3 hours ago, simonh said:

I think multiple spells in a round is just if you are not engaged in melee. If you are, the restriction applies.

It says offensive spells.  Which you could take to mean spells that overcome or target an enemy.  But could a character first cast protection or bladesharp and then attack later in the round? You could consider the bladesharp offensive as it buffs you offensively (but I personally think not as you aren’t targeting an enemy).  But protection certainly does not feel offensive at all.

[creativehum]

I wanted to add my own correction to the text after thinking it through:

Currently on the STRIKE RANKS MODIFIER TABLE on p. 193 we find this:

Quote

STRIKE RANK MODIFIERS
Readiness SR
Prepared spell or weapon... SR 0
Prepare a new weapon, reload a missile weapon, spell, or ready a missile (arrow, sling stone, crossbow bolt, etc.). SR +5

It should probably read:

Quote

STRIKE RANK MODIFIERS
Readiness.... SR
Prepared spell of 1MP or weapon... SR 0
Prepare a new weapon, reload a missile weapon, spell of 1MP, or ready a missile (arrow, sling stone, crossbow bolt, etc.). SR +5

And then as Furry Fella noted above: 

Quote

Magic Points
Each magic point used... +1 SR

Should read

Quote

Each additional magic point used in a spell after the 1st... +1 SR

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by creativehum

[Mac]

On 6/22/2018 at 12:08 PM, PhilHibbs said:

But the fact that, by a literal reading, a DEX 21 character casting a 1 point spell casts it on strike rank zero does not mean that the spell literally takes zero time to cast.

The “literal reading” is negated by the fact the rules state that if any combo of circumstances lead to a Srike Rank of zero, it is still treated as Strike Rank 1.  I am interested to see how this works out-I could argue both sides

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Mac said:

The “literal reading” is negated by the fact the rules state that if any combo of circumstances lead to a Srike Rank of zero, it is still treated as Strike Rank 1.  I am interested to see how this works out-I could argue both sides

It says that about melee but I think it's obvious it should apply to both.