Too Far?

[jeffjerwin]

Correctly posting this in Glorantha...

I'm gathering notes for my Puppeteers campaign. In the DP/WBRM boardgames, they may be found at a number of ruins and sites in Kerofinela. Some are rather dangerous places, interestingly. But one is the stockade at Too Far, on the very rim of Lunar Tarsh.

Why?

I'm try to work this out. It appears to be in Pomini territory in Tarsh in Flames, which may be relevant - that tribe is supposedly rather creative. (I think the Slavewall tribe is less likely)

There are also a number of dinosaur and dragonewt connections - a dragonewt road passes through the site.

Arkat may have fought a battle here in 436. The EWF had a watch post at Top Ear nearby according to the Gazetteer.

It's been a part of Tarsh since at least the 1400s, based on the maps in the Sourcebook.

 

Anything I'm missing, or that you want to suggest from your own fervid imaginations?

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

Anything I'm missing, or that you want to suggest from your own fervid imaginations?

Well there's the name itself.  Why is it "Too Far"?  And for whom was it "Too Far"?  

It is referenced in the HQ1 DragonPass Gazeteer, p.56:

Too Far
Run-down village on the edge of Tarsh (B1)
Source: Jonstown Compendium.
A shabby little town, little more than a waystation on the road to Alda-chur, inhabited by sutlers, innkeepers, horse-traders, and tax agents. The battle mark shows where the Household of Death was destroyed when they tried to invade Tarsh.

So could just be the point where Sartarites were defeated while trying to extend their influence into Tarsh.  But, then again, that could be a continuation of earlier references to the site - perhaps a point beyond which the True Golden Horde should not have gone, or the point in the Lunar advance that triggered a response from defenders of Tarsh (e.g. Palashee). 

[jeffjerwin]

46 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Well there's the name itself.  Why is it "Too Far"?  And for whom was it "Too Far"?  

Well, in Real Life, of course, Tarsh is littered with such names: "Furthest", "Dunstop" (Don't Stop), etc.

One might also imagine a connection to Arim's explorations: he certainly spent some time in the area.

Or perhaps it references the Stinking Forest or Ginijji: a place just a bit "Too Far" from safety and culture.

Note that it's within the Glowline in the GoG but not within it in the boardgame, suggesting the line may cut through the town.

Whatever the Puppeteers do there, it's probably pre-Glowline (c.1500 or so) given nearly all their other musters are demonstratively connected to EWF Ruins (except for the random hex in the middle of the Stinking Forest).

[jeffjerwin]

On the name, in Tarsh in Flames, it is suggested that 'Bagnot' (meaning 'short stop here') was named by Arim the Pauper. As he did explore the region, 'Too Far' would seemingly be his own observation. Perhaps he encountered an enemy, or possibly trolls who warned him about Snake Pipe Hollow.

 

[Darius West]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Well there's the name itself.  Why is it "Too Far"?  And for whom was it "Too Far"?  

It is referenced in the HQ1 DragonPass Gazeteer, p.56:

Too Far
Run-down village on the edge of Tarsh (B1)
Source: Jonstown Compendium.
A shabby little town, little more than a waystation on the road to Alda-chur, inhabited by sutlers, innkeepers, horse-traders, and tax agents. The battle mark shows where the Household of Death was destroyed when they tried to invade Tarsh.

So could just be the point where Sartarites were defeated while trying to extend their influence into Tarsh.  But, then again, that could be a continuation of earlier references to the site - perhaps a point beyond which the True Golden Horde should not have gone, or the point in the Lunar advance that triggered a response from defenders of Tarsh (e.g. Palashee). 

Isn't it interesting that the Puppeteer Troupe isn't mentioned at all in relation to Too Far in the DPG?  I would also point out that it is the only Puppeteer location that is not a ruin... but can we be certain about that?  Too Far certainly has a bad location.  It is on the warpath for the Sartarites and the Lunars, Cragspider and her trolls, wandering giants, chaos, tusk riders, Stinking forest Elves, and probably Dwarves too.  I haven't read how much settlement there is in the Creek Valley, but it seems like a dangerous prospect.

[jeffjerwin]

11 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Isn't it interesting that the Puppeteer Troupe isn't mentioned at all in relation to Too Far in the DPG?  I would also point out that it is the only Puppeteer location that is not a ruin... but can we be certain about that?  Too Far certainly has a bad location.  It is on the warpath for the Sartarites and the Lunars, Cragspider and her trolls, wandering giants, chaos, tusk riders, Stinking forest Elves, and probably Dwarves too.  I haven't read how much settlement there is in the Creek Valley, but it seems like a dangerous prospect.

You're right - there probably ought to be a ruin there. It makes sense for everything going by way of the Trader Valley/Greatway.

Also it would have been fortified against Arkat by the Bright Empire. It was also a boundary between the various polities ruling the Pass and the Aramites... so presumably somewhere in the vicinity are the remains of one or more fortresses. But perhaps they only survive in a much less prominent form than the other sites, or are 'underneath' Too Far. 

[Darius West]

2 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

You're right - there probably ought to be a ruin there. It makes sense for everything going by way of the Trader Valley/Greatway.

Also it would have been fortified against Arkat by the Bright Empire. It was also a boundary between the various polities ruling the Pass and the Aramites... so presumably somewhere in the vicinity are the remains of one or more fortresses. But perhaps they only survive in a much less prominent form than the other sites, or are 'underneath' Too Far. 

When I first looked at Too Far in context of the Dragon Pass boardgame, my instinct was that perhaps Too Far was where the Puppeteers chose to winter.  Few circuses will keep operating over winter as the weather precludes decent crowds, so they find a place to stash the big top, and stable the animals, and gather back in the first weeks of Spring to begin the next Year's schedule.  Now while Too Far is on a decent road, and the cliffs make it hard to get lost and probably provide some protection against the worst of the weather, the sheer danger of the location makes it seem like a bad place to winter.  It is in harms way, and a bad place to store valuable things therefore.  I think it is more plausible to wonder how much about Too Far is real and how much is illusion.

[jeffjerwin]

Two notes from History of the Heortling People's map:

1. 'Itendi' appears just north of Too Far.

2. "Hola's Hills" is the name of the hills where it is situated.

On the wintering issue: most DP scenarios would take place during the summer (not during planting or harvesting). Hence the winter quarters could be somewhere else entirely, possibly in the two spots omitted from the DP rules but found in the earlier WBRM: Furthest and Boldhome.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Isn't it interesting that the Puppeteer Troupe isn't mentioned at all in relation to Too Far in the DPG?

The reference as a place for the Puppeteers was likely just forgotten about.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

When I first looked at Too Far in context of the Dragon Pass boardgame, my instinct was that perhaps Too Far was where the Puppeteers chose to winter. 

Seems like a reasonable choice - that way when you can travel again, you can head into Tarsh, over to Alda-chur, or down Dwarf Run to Sartar, depending on how you interpret the omens for the year.  And perhaps far enough away from Snakepipe Hollow that you won't get as much Chaos coming your way.  It's likely going to have trolls and tusk riders, though, but perhaps that would be their Darkseason audience!

[jeffjerwin]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The reference as a place for the Puppeteers was likely just forgotten about.

Seems like a reasonable choice - that way when you can travel again, you can head into Tarsh, over to Alda-chur, or down Dwarf Run to Sartar, depending on how you interpret the omens for the year.  And perhaps far enough away from Snakepipe Hollow that you won't get as much Chaos coming your way.  It's likely going to have trolls and tusk riders, though, but perhaps that would be their Darkseason audience!

That's an interesting idea... Though another camp is very close to Cragspider's digs, which is more trollish. The Tusk Riders are perhaps, um, a bit unruly for a performance. Trolls at least like music and dancing.

Edited December 24, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said:

The Tusk Riders are perhaps, um, a bit unruly for a performance.

Maybe the elves of the Stinking Forest then? But yes Tusk Riders probably don't have much appreciation for such performances.  But the residents of Too Far might appreciate the illusionary powers of the Puppeteers to "protect" them from wintertime Tusk Rider raids.

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Maybe the elves of the Stinking Forest then? But yes Tusk Riders probably don't have much appreciation for such performances.  But the residents of Too Far might appreciate the illusionary powers of the Puppeteers to "protect" them from wintertime Tusk Rider raids.

Good call.  I suspect that Too Far would have long since ceased to exist without the Puppeteers for protection.  I think it likely that they  can lead their enemies astray with illusion magic, and make them think they have sacked the town (when they have merely seen what they wanted to see), or that Too Far doesn't exist anymore.  

[jeffjerwin]

Also, Too Far moves around on Greg's maps...

[jajagappa]

18 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Also, Too Far moves around on Greg's maps...

It's only an Illusion... 😉

[Ian Cooper]

18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The reference as a place for the Puppeteers was likely just forgotten about.

Yes, any omission was not deliberate. Although we were not really sure who the puppeteers were at that point.

[jeffjerwin]

Too Far may be where the old Puppeteers retire and raise their children... It could be really old if the Puppeteers date back unbroken to the EWF or before.

[jeffjerwin]

On 12/23/2018 at 9:36 AM, jeffjerwin said:

2. "Hola's Hills" is the name of the hills where it is situated.

Hola is Nala on the DP Gazetteer map, as it turns out. In the DP Gazetteer it is associated with a range of hills that doesn't exist in other maps, between Too Far and Goldedge; but a look at Greg's maps shows it is the name of the small ridge that extends from the Grizzly Hills where Too Far is situated.

According to the BoHM, Nala's Hills is where Face Rot, a spirit that causes domestic disorder, tended to appear. It is well known for causing Vingkotling divorces. Hedkoranth smashed it. Earth Top Hill is the largest hill in Nala's Hills. The Nala Hills is where the Vingkotlings held their marriage sacrifices.

"Nal[a]" is a phoneme found in the names of Mahome's brothers, the Lowfires. It probably means '[bon]fire'.

On the locations: on the earliest DP map by Greg the village is shown (almost illegibly) about one hex SE from its location in the GtG. It moves closer to the Dragonewt road - a plinth is actually on the site of the village - in later maps. In the Tarsh in Flames it is outside the Glowline [and a hex east of where it is in the GtG] and in the DP Gazetteer maps (by Wesley Quadros, the same artist) it is within the Glowline. These locations form a triangle... an illusion rune.

If Too Far is connected to the Dragonewt road, then my suspicion is that the name emerged because Arim and his band encountered Dragonewts here and ran away...

As to why the EWF-connected but spared Puppeteers have a special connection to a site located 'on' a Dragonewt plinth - and note they share teleportation powers with dragonewts... - I think we could speculate about.

 

PS. This has been a lovely bit of brainstorming.

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by jeffjerwin

[jeffjerwin]

So, based on Darius' suggestions, and Harald's, I have imagine my Too Far as follows:

The site is a palisaded village (triangular in shape, on the DP map I note...) at the edge of a huge collapsed bridge - some sort of EWF structure - stretching toward the Stinking Forest. Where the bridge ends is an Inn called the 'O'er-reach Inn'. It is here that the Puppeteers winter. Ropes run from the bridge to the next fragmentary span, where acrobats practice. Eroded cliffs descend toward the river and the Trader's Valley road below, which passes through the arch below the Inn.

Overlooking the village to the north is a Dragonewt Plinth. It is here that Arim encountered the creatures for the first time after venturing past the Death Line, and hastily fled. Too Far is the closest of any human settlement to a plinth and these beings are sometimes seen in the market.

Hostile groups tend to find the site hard to locate. Sometimes there is a bridge, sometimes there is nothing. Sometimes there is vast ruin. The Glowline is irregular here: sometimes it encompasses the village, and sometimes it is a bit to the west. When the Moon comes to visit, there are occasionally mystics from the Empire attending the performances.

 

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

So, based on Darius' suggestions, and Harald's, I have imagine my Too Far as follows:

The site is a palisaded village (triangular in shape, on the DP map I note...) at the edge of a huge collapsed bridge - some sort of EWF structure - stretching toward the Stinking Forest. Where the bridge ends is an Inn called the 'O'er-reach Inn'. It is here that the Puppeteers winter. Ropes run from the bridge to the next fragmentary span, where acrobats practice. Eroded cliffs descend toward the river and the Trader's Valley road below, which passes through the arch below the Inn.

Overlooking the village to the north is a Dragonewt Plinth. It is here that Arim encountered the creatures for the first time after venturing past the Death Line, and hastily fled. Too Far is the closest of any human settlement to a plinth and these beings are sometimes seen in the market.

Hostile groups tend to find the site hard to locate. Sometimes there is a bridge, sometimes there is nothing. Sometimes there is vast ruin. The Glowline is irregular here: sometimes it encompasses the village, and sometimes it is a bit to the west. When the Moon comes to visit, there are occasionally mystics from the Empire attending the performances.

Sounds about right.  I like the bits about the reaching glowline. 

I suppose there may have been non-human puppeteers who survived there during the Dragonkill.  I would imagine they would be a motley assortment of the "comedy races" i.e. baboons, ducks, morokanth, newtlings, satyrs, etc.  

[jeffjerwin]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Sounds about right.  I like the bits about the reaching glowline. 

I suppose there may have been non-human puppeteers who survived there during the Dragonkill.  I would imagine they would be a motley assortment of the "comedy races" i.e. baboons, ducks, morokanth, newtlings, satyrs, etc.  

Indeed.

[scott-martin]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I suppose there may have been non-human puppeteers who survived there during the Dragonkill.  I would imagine they would be a motley assortment of the "comedy races" i.e. baboons, ducks, morokanth, newtlings, satyrs, etc.  

If the stock comedy / bathos types hadn't been created some motivated dramaturge would have needed to invent them.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Gotta say I'm impressed with how you can take a (to me) seemingly random location and piece together a really fascinating and unique locale.

[jeffjerwin]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Gotta say I'm impressed with how you can take a (to me) seemingly random location and piece together a really fascinating and unique locale.

Every dinky hamlet in Glorantha is unique, of course, but we don't usually know the stories of its people.

[jeffjerwin]

Here's my crude & freehand sketch of the site.

[Sir_Godspeed]

What's the periscope-looking thing?