Near Ones, the Friends of Pamalt

[Gregory M]

Never heard about the "Near Ones" or  "Friends of Pamalt" before reading The Glorantha Sourcebook ("Illumination", pp. 149-150). Nothing in the Guide / Revealed Mythologies / Glorantha Wiki. [EDIT: "Near Ones" were first mentioned in Heroquest Glorantha p. 203.] I'm running a Kothar / Kresh campaign and interested by all the theories / ideas you'll share! 😉

Edited December 27, 2018 by Gregory M

[Gregory M]

Could be related to a mystical way / attempt to recreate or get access to the lost unity of Langamul ?

[metcalph]

I had the impression they were a Fonritan group or based in Fonrit.

Since they are friendly and thought to be illuminates, I infer that there's some hidden dark side to their friendship (because if they were totally above board they would be thought to be illuminates, wouldn't they?).  They are not actually illuminates because the preceeding sentence describes where illumination is known and the only Pamaltelan region listed (Vralos) can be attributed to the Cult of Silence.

I think from their name, they remain in close contact with the soil of Pamaltela and use it as a basis of friendship.  Although small and widely dispersed, they do not suffer because they remain close to Pamalt.  They ingratiate themselves with all inhabitants of Pamaltela (even Elves and Trolls) and make themselves useful by passing messages and gifts and the like.

As for the dark side.  The Near Ones are spies for some unknown power.  Perhaps the Vadeli, perhaps Vovisibor.  People who have attacked them have met ends from unlikely enemies that just happened to be in the area.  The Near Ones' hands are clean but the history of such ends has become well-known that they have incurred widespread suspicion.  

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Gregory M said:

Could be related to a mystical way / attempt to recreate or get access to the lost unity of Langamul ?

Langamul is, I think, a Dragon and his death is the reason why there are no Dragons in Pamaltela today.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Revealed Mythologies talk about a form of theism in Doraddi religious practices known as "Adoration", if I recall correctly. Essentially, while most Doraddi religious practices are shamanistic in practice, some hone in on one specific god and emulate the deity to the point where they essentially practice theism (I assume from a God Learner/Gamer perspective). Could these guys be something like that, with Pamalt? Or some crossover between Adoration and theism-based Illumination (similar to the Old Wind Orlanthi ascetics)?

Edited December 26, 2018 by Sir_Godspeed

[davecake]

13 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Revealed Mythologies talk about a form of theism in Doraddi religious practices known as "Adoration", if I recall correctly. Essentially, while most Doraddi religious practices are shamanistic in practice, some hone in on one specific god and emulate the deity to the point where they essentially practice theism (I assume from a God Learner/Gamer perspective). Could these guys be something like that, with Pamalt?

That is a pretty normal part of Doraddi religious practice for many deities. It's pretty much theism, except the priests are also shamans, IMO.

I think the Near Ones are mystics and are able to approach the holy mountain of Um in the spirit world, a thing normally forbidden. This is, of course, a powerful metaphor for mystic attainment. But also an actual thing some of them can do. 

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Revealed Mythologies talk about a form of theism in Doraddi religious practices known as "Adoration", if I recall correctly. Essentially, while most Doraddi religious practices are shamanistic in practice, some hone in on one specific god and emulate the deity to the point where they essentially practice theism (I assume from a God Learner/Gamer perspective). Could these guys be something like that, with Pamalt? Or some crossover between Adoration and theism-based Illumination (similar to the Old Wind Orlanthi ascetics)?

The trouble with the categories in Revealed Mythologies is that Greg was throwing definitions against a wall and seeing if they would stick,  In many cases, they were printed elsewhere before all the kinks were worked out or even if they were workable  FWIW Adoration is described in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes as:

Quote

This is a type of worship given to deities without sacrifice of
living animals. These are generally mass celebrations led by holy people dedicated
to some specific life-giving and consciousness-raising purpose. They usually
include music, dance, and other trance inducing practices; this is sometimes
called “Ecstatic Adoration.”

S:KoH p106

On the subject of Doraddi magic, I think from the Guide where it talks about the "High Shamanic Ideal" (Guide p25) is that the Doraddi view having as many spirits as possible to be a virtue.  Hence if given the choice between learning some rune magic or some spirit magic from the same god, they would learn the spirit magic.  Hence the Doraddi cults are more like Animal Nomads or the Grazers rather than the Heortlings.  

 

[davecake]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

On the subject of Doraddi magic, I think from the Guide where it talks about the "High Shamanic Ideal" (Guide p25) is that the Doraddi view having as many spirits as possible to be a virtue.  Hence if given the choice between learning some rune magic or some spirit magic from the same god, they would learn the spirit magic.  Hence the Doraddi cults are more like Animal Nomads or the Grazers rather than the Heortlings.  

They'll mix rune magic and spirit magic, but a magician that can't deal with the spirits directly is only half a magician. So they mostly have shaman-priests, as you say like the Animal Nomads or the Grazers. They do have the equivalent of God-Talkers, people who have some good magic but are not dedicated magicians, usually people who manifest the gods power on earth and so have earthly responsibilities - like the Chief or a (female) household leader, or a great warrior. And, of course there are plenty of people around who have good magic but don't aspire to the High Shamanic Ideal at all, the Pamalt shamans might say they are foolish or wicked but they are still there. 

[metcalph]

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

They'll mix rune magic and spirit magic, but a magician that can't deal with the spirits directly is only half a magician.

Sorcerors don't generally deal with spirits directly so I doubt the validity of this aphorism.  I prefer to describe what the Doraddi Magicians are like without mandating what they must be according to some philosophy (i.e. adoration, high shamanic ideal etc).  The Doraddi deal with spirits as a feature. 

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

So they mostly have shaman-priests, as you say like the Animal Nomads or the Grazers. They do have the equivalent of God-Talkers, people who have some good magic but are not dedicated magicians, usually people who manifest the gods power on earth and so have earthly responsibilities - like the Chief or a (female) household leader, or a great warrior. And, of course there are plenty of people around who have good magic but don't aspire to the High Shamanic Ideal at all, the Pamalt shamans might say they are foolish or wicked but they are still there. 

I don't think this is right.  God-talkers are not "people who manifest the gods power on earth" but emissaries between the Gods and their worshippers.  The RuneQuest: Glorantha rules imply that God-Talkers have a decicated one-on-one with a God but I also think that there are Pantheon-wide God-Talkers (after King of Dragon Pass) who confer with larger sections of the Storm Tribe.  The Doraddi would not have God Talkers because they like to deal with spirits instead..  They would therefore have Rune Lords, Shamans and Spirit-Talkers.  

 

[davecake]

33 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Sorcerors don't generally deal with spirits directly so I doubt the validity of this aphorism.

If you believe in the High Shamanic Ideal, then yeah, sorcerers are like less than half a magician. The sorcerers disagree. I wasn't trying to make a general statement, rather one about Doraddi attitude. 

 

35 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I prefer to describe what the Doraddi Magicians are like without mandating what they must be according to some philosophy (i.e. adoration, high shamanic ideal etc).

Well, sure, but if you only talk about what they do not why, you'll miss some important stuff. After all, almost everyone comments on how the Doraddi could do things very differently, and choose not to.

37 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I don't think this is right.  God-talkers are not "people who manifest the gods power on earth" but emissaries between the Gods and their worshippers. 

Well, the rules status and the social status get a bit mixed up. They have people who are part time magicians who also take an active party in daily life, whatever you want to call them. 

38 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Doraddi would not have God Talkers because they like to deal with spirits instead..  They would therefore have Rune Lords, Shamans and Spirit-Talkers.  

Sure. If it makes you feel better, call them Spirit Talkers - but they get Rune magic from Great Spirits (that in RQG aren't distinguished from Gods), rather than being apprentice shaman types. They do get plenty of spirit magic, though, as you'd expect with a lot of shamans around, including a few weird things that you only get if you travel to special places. I don't think they have much in the way of Rune Lords as the Genertelans do, though - a Pamalt Chieftain is more like a priest than a Rune Lord, they get their extra magic from their social status rather than the other way around. They lead  a lot of the big dances and other adorations, very social things, rather than spent time messing around with sacrifices - they deal with the communal relationship, rather than the individual relationship with the god. I think the sort of 'define your identity by how much you are like your god' thing that Rune Lords do is very much not a thing that the Doraddi think is healthy. 

So you have Chieftains who learn from Pamalt, craftsmen who learn from Balumbasta/Lodril, warriors who learn from Vangono, Nyanka midwives etc. The magical position, whether it be a part time role or a full time one, is integrated into daily life, not about becoming a holy man separate from day to day life. 

They probably do have a lot of minor spirit cults and such, especially of various animal spirits and landscape spirits, and dealing with them is part of the Shamans job (probably the Pamalt shamans job, the Noruma shamans etc have other roles). Their equivalent of wyters are often landscape spirits that the local chieftain talks to. And while most of the public rites are fairly cheery things that provide solutions to shared problems provided by the 'priests' of the Witnesses, there are plenty of shamanic rites that are much more private, and for more personal solutions to problems (like getting rid of tricky ghosts or offended spirits, seeking personal advancement or fame, finding a lover, etc). And the Doraddi also definitely have the concept of the 'bad shaman' who talks to the spirit world, but does so for their own selfish reasons not for good communal reasons (hey, bad shamans like that who killed the sun once!). 

Now, Illuminates, like the Near Ones, they aren't community oriented. Mysticism is very personal. But then, mystics in Pamaltela would also be quite outside the normal social patterns - and every knows some shamans do weird things that no one understands, mysticism is just another one. 

 

[Gregory M]

I'm trying to imagine what could be a Hero Wars-era metaplot related to the Near Ones, whether they are really illuminated or people just believe it (in so far as Peter Metcalphe thinks they are not truely illuminated).

Illumination is usually associated with overcoming antagonisms, reconciling things that are normally irreconcilable, and even accessing dragon mysticism or playing with Chaos, as Lunars do. In the Plains of Pamalt, doesn't that lead sooner or later to the artmali legacy?

After all, Artmal is the son of the Blue Moon, and moon-related magic is strongly associated with Illumination, precisely because it's about cycles, return of dead things, mash-up of opposites and so on.

The Friends of Pamalt could be Doraddi leading mystical investigations with or alongside the Veldang to reactivate the seminal friendship between Doraddi and Artmali (see the myth of Afidisa) and/or steal their secrets. Their goal would be to reconnect with the magic of the ancient Artmali, although it had been tainted by Chaos at some point (but that doesn't stop illuminated - or supposedly illuminated - magicians). Thus a high-level tidal magic of the Blue Moon would help to recreate the Blue Fire Sea, extinguish the fire of the Nargan and submerge its chaotic threats. Or the Near Ones could try to summon a high-level water magic using the Sky River Titan, father of Artmal, for the same reasons.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Gregory M

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Gregory M said:

After all, Artmal is the son of the Blue Moon, and moon-related magic is strongly associated with Illumination, precisely because it's about cycles, return of dead things, mash-up of opposites and so on.

I don't quite see how Illumination is associated with cycles or the return of dead things. A neglect of opposites limiting one another, sure, that looks like a feature of enlightenment.

I cannot say whether the Blue Moon and everything connected to it is as necessarily illuminated as all the Red Moon stuff. The late Artmali alliance with Chaos powers doesn't mean that they were immune to it in any way - they had come past the point where they cared.

[Gregory M]

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I don't quite see how Illumination is associated with cycles or the return of dead things.

You're right. My feeling was that moons, both red and blue, through notions like cycle, resurrection... always associate opposite concepts: destroyed (Death) then born again (Life), Underworld/Darkness and Sky/Light... so that moon magic (whatever the moon) seems to me related to illumination "in essence".

[Sir_Godspeed]

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

The trouble with the categories in Revealed Mythologies is that Greg was throwing definitions against a wall and seeing if they would stick,  In many cases, they were printed elsewhere before all the kinks were worked out or even if they were workable  FWIW Adoration is described in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes as:

On the subject of Doraddi magic, I think from the Guide where it talks about the "High Shamanic Ideal" (Guide p25) is that the Doraddi view having as many spirits as possible to be a virtue.  Hence if given the choice between learning some rune magic or some spirit magic from the same god, they would learn the spirit magic.  Hence the Doraddi cults are more like Animal Nomads or the Grazers rather than the Heortlings.  

 

I must admit I'm a bit disappointed to see the concept of Adoration moved from being a Doraddi-specific concept to a generalized approach to theism. Feels a bit like homogeneizing, and I liked how Revealed Mythologies gave the Doraddi their own view of spirits and magical beings (the focus on the necessity of a body, for example - which makes them a bit different from most other traditions), but oh well. There's plenty of time to develop them in the future.

[Tindalos]

Interestingly, back in Hero Wars (the rules system, not the event), it's mentioned that the Doraddi have a form of mysticism known as Norumism.

While this was a long ways back, but it does have some interesting potential.

While Noruma is the great shaman, they are also a non-binary individual, both/neither male and female, and an intercessor between the worlds. It is possible that Norumism is a particular path, much like Illumination, that seeks to transcend the binary world of male/female, spirit/mortal.